BrainDrain,

"make mine a fixed half-pint thanks!" - BD

[Should have read "point" not pint... Reminds of Winston Smith (1984, George Orwell) going to a pub of the prols., where an old guy, who could remember the imperil system of measure, said words to the effect that, with the metric system a litre of beer was too much and set one to the toilet all the time all the time and a half-litre was too little and did squench one's thirst. A pint was just right!]

I think what the good prof. was saying is we build our own god around a common attractor. [I may have miss read him, little context, a few lines in a book intro.]. Agree, there other concepts.

I respect your concepts. But I see other people, all religious, building concepts about their religion, just like you and Sells (who seems to have left us). All saying there are 1,000 gods, but "my concept" is right, with equal conviction. 999 false gods and I have the one true god [apologies to polytheists].

Relatedly, this is why Sells takes God as a given and Jesus is that God. All Sells, so called theology is, tethered to that point. When he writes he starts with a given and adopts a langsyne attachment to an apriori fixation. ...Out come the four wise monkeys, see no evil, say no evil, hear no evil, write no evil in response to tricky Forum questions

All,

Sells sees Jesus vis-a-vis Zeus, as a "pure" human presence. But does not elaborate. Many would see Jesus as a historical person, but does it not odd seem so many attributed characteristics parallel, Mithras? Sells would say, Mithras is a project of people's minds, but at the same time chides many whom post here claiming Jesus is a projection of the mind. A double standard.

Even if Jesus was human, an historical person, and, Mithras was not: Why would a Son of God, as an historical person, cloak himself in --to him-- the 600 year old Mithras Myth, as detailed in my earlier post? What would Occam's razor suggest? Who this plagarist? God or some priests?

Sells,

- How does Mithras exist?

Peter, Please don't preach from a bunker. If you like your name on articles, why not engage in our remarks. Else, you seem aloof.

cont.
If you could be bothered to remove your personal bias you would see that there's nothing within Gnosticism that denies man the path to 'heaven' or God, and it is, in fact, christianity of (man's) church that prevents many from ever reaching a true 'understanding' of God and 'His' ways, not Gnosticism. Gnosticism denies the power of man's church and the role the Bible plays in it. It is for this reason ONLY that it is (falsely) made out to be heretical. (Mis)Quote whoever you wish to try to 'support' your own bias, but you can only truly understand by walking the (straight-and-narrow) path.

To me it is obvious that you acknowledge the falsehood of the christian church since you no longer attend one. It is the history of the same church that calls Gnosticism heretical, as they fear the true Power and fail to properly understand God or man.

Over to you.

Oliver,

Please give me enough credit to work out for myself what 'Fixed pint' means. I had hoped you might appreciate humour. I supect English may not be your first language?

I'm sure Sells can fight his own battles (if he can be bothered), but your question about how Mithras existed sparked my natural curiosity and i did a little research (unlike HL I can accept information provided me without denying it's validity because of some pre-existing self-held worldview).

In regards to your Question:

a: Citation for your claim? Wikipedia quotes Roman Mithras as being born (or reborn) of a rock (272 BC dies 64 years later 208 BC (nobody needed him when he was 64!) and also as a virgin birth (from the 7th cent BC Zoroastran Mithra,"progeny of Anahita, a mother-entity, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras").
b: I believe you'll be hard pressed to find any religion/god that does NOT hold a sacrificial dinner in Indo-Eurasian theology.
c: Eucharist, from the Gk=Thanksgiving. Ditto b.
d: A common theme in Indo-persian religions pre-extant to both Mithraism and Christianity.
e: John the Baptist was baptising people before Jesus Christ rose to prominence... cont.

(from before)
..as a public figure in Roman times. Under Roman control many differing religious sects and their practices were united so as to enhance Christianity as the religion of the Emperor and his people.
f: How better can people symbolise the rebirth into godly life and ways or that God has the power over life and death?
g: The Romans decided 25/12 is Christ's birthday under a Roman calendar (solar) it is no coincidence that it occurs during the week following the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere (Dec 21) being the day the Sun (son) is 'reborn' and the days again start becoming longer. Zoroastran Mithraists ancestors in Iran today refer to Shab-e-Yalda which celebrates the birth of the divinity of light on that day. Yalda literally means "The birth of sun."
h: Since Alexander the Great conquered the land of Zoroaster worship in 4th cent BC, 'Hellenising' Mithraism is hardly surprising. It was Romanised at the time of Jesus' alleged birth.
i: Jesus grew up under Roman rule as the Romans overrode the Greek conquest of Palestine. Empires both adopt and supplant a states extant practices, what's new?.
j: Romans (who's soldiers held Mithras as their God/Religion. It was predominantly male) determined that the Trinity should become dogma. Persians held an Indian belief in the Trinity of God. Mithra is a member of the Ahuric Triad, protectors of Asha, the order of the universe.

This highlights to me the importance of understanding evolution (how one thing grows out of another, 'perfecting' it for a specific period or group). Things get dropped (occasionally vital things), and things get added (sometimes erroneously misextrapolated).

I have something for you to invest that substantial brainpower upon:
Until we can learn to live beyond the good and evil dichotomy we will fail both our own humanity and God ('s will).
A single coin has two opposing faces which man frequently fails to recognise are, at the one time, unique in one's own perspective and indivisible from it's whole.
Conscience that isn't separated from conscience somehow, is incapable of distinguishing itself uniquely.

Comment?

BD,

1.1 General references:

- History and Ethics within Organized Christianity, Hall, 1910
- The Mythical Interpretation of the Gospels, Thornburn, 1916
- Survival of Roman Religion, Laing, 1931
- Seasonal Feasts and Festivals, James, 1963
- The Son of Man in Myth and History, Borsch, 1967
- Greek Myths and Christian Mystery, Rahner, 1971
- The Transcendent Adventure: Studies of Religion in Science Fiction/Fantasy, 1985
- Pseudo-Dionysius, Luibheld, 1987
- From Death to Rebirth: Ritual and Conversion in Antiquity, Finn, 1997
- Ascetic Eucharists, Food and Drink in Ancient Christian Ritual Meals, McGowen, 1999
- Mystics of the Christian Tradition, Fanning, 2001

1.2 Stable reference:

The stable reference was from “The Hiram Key”, Knight & Lomas, 1997,. Unwisely, I just checked the stable claim, with that book, because the Book was handy. Checking a little deeper, the more common birth reference is to a cave. The rub is that others say Jesus’ birthplace was a cave and the stable is a tradition. Does this mean that Mithras and Jesus were both born in a cave, in truth or fiction? To be honest, I think not. More than likely than not, in myth, Myrythras was born of rock, representing the enduring universe. Jesus’ birth, in real life? Unknown.

1.3 Answer Format:

I started typing my reply before realising that your points corresponded to mine. Sorry.

I did know much of the history you outlined but learned a thing or two. Thanks.

My minor point is that Jesus has adopted many of the trappings of a mystery cult. In Marketing term the product is not well differentiated.

My main point throughout this thread is that there are some whom think objectively about, say, Mithras, but do not give Jesus the same workout. Thinking is selectively suspended and double standards applied. Sells sees God and Jesus as synonymous. That’s his personal right. However, “How does God Exist?”, is a wide theological topic not merely a personal advocacy

/Cont...

BD,

1.4 Your question:

Will think on your question. Busy now. Doing my own research and in an offshore time zone. Could be a few days.

2. Reply still pending

Sells,

- How does Mithras exist?

Hope you reply.