Boaz_D
I thank you for your helpful comments, although this thread might not be the most appropriate, I appreciate your words. Apologies to readers for my response here.

It is interesting to see in the words of David, written a thousand years before Christ, many similarities between what David experienced and what Christ endured (assuming we take Gospels 'as Gospel' ; ) ) and also interesting to note it's position in the Bible just before what i consider to be the most beautiful of the Psalms, Psalm 23 (..Valley of Death...)

The point I still make however, is that David, who was undeniably human and not God, is declaring those words to his own people as a declaration of his faith in God. I still cannot equate this with one who IS God (supposedly) calling out to God, even if to show to Jews his connection to the lineage of David. To my mind this merely reinforces Christ's humaness, not his Godliness. I do not in any way deny that Christ knew all that was in store for him before he surrendered himself through the aid of his agent Judas (possibly as a result of reading the words of David, thus making a self-fulfilling 'prophecy)'.

If you have anything that disproves this in your wisdom i shall be happy to hear it.

I see Jesus as an exceptionally wise and courageous Human with great (perhaps Unique?) Faith, anything more than this i have yet to be shown.

Thank you for your efforts Relda but you have said not one thing HL can accept as proof of your argument that John's Gospel was Gnostic. His 'faith' will not permit him to acknowledge your perspective as having any validity any more than it will allow him to admit mine has. He is right ( and has God on his side) and we are sinners who hold no truth and are thus wrong and that is that in his eyes.

HL despite my many proofs of the falllacy you hold to of your understanding of Gnosticism you still cannot accept your own ignorance in this matter and persist in making foolish statements that just prove your lack of understanding.

Here is the latest one: You absolutely and resolutely insist that Gnosticism equates to man's self-generated Godhood - It DOESN'T! It DOES require ALL individuals who desire to seek God to recognise that from Birth we build a wall that prevents us from 'knowing' God fully or perfectly, and lack of awareness of this will ensure we end up in your concept of 'hell'. Gnosticism's aim is to remove as much as possible from every human who makes the attempt (through the aid of Jesus Christ within them) this 'wall' (fundamental mental processes - could be identified as 'human sin' at a push) so as to bring to the very few who remain capable of overcoming all challenges and building the necessary preconditions (which, for many, takes multiple lifetimes) closer to knowledge of and eventually incorporation into, God. (Like Enoch who 'walked with God' after hundreds of years, humans HAVE that ability - the ability through immensely hard work and the Grace of Jesus to 'walk with' God.

Accept that you have misled yourself into a false understanding of what Gnosticism is (mainly because of the Council of Nicea) and try increasing your knowledge and understanding of what God IS, instead of pulling down a practice you have not the least true understanding of, as your words prove to all.

You have been partly deceived by the evilness of those who sought power over the 'True' Word of God from the time of his arrival on Earth, if not before that. Christ's knowledge remains but you choose to follow man's word and your own imperfect understanding, and that of others, over your Lord's.

Be as Christ - Christ is the Way.

Trust Sells is just busy or working on a reply. Hope he will join in the debate. That is what writing to a Forum is about. We learn from each other.

Peter, please respond to my earlier post. Thanks.

Jesus requires that a human be born again of water and the [Holy] spirit, in order to be saved. There is no gnosis involved in this. There is faith, generated solely by God. It is unreasonable for humans to believe that Jesus is God, because humans are only personally acquainted with other humans. If it is unreasonable, and cannot be accessed by reason, then following Jesus who is God can only be by faith/trust.

One may trust Jesus, if one sees, hears, or reads about his miracles, which are occurrences beyond the abilities of any human being.

The premise of gnosticism is that through knowledge gained through human effort, a human can save himself. The sleeper awakes to salvation. Independently of any supernatural/beyond human help.

The premise of Genesis is that humans aren't capable of this. The premise of Gnosticism is that humans are capable fo this.

The reason, according to the Bible, why Jesus/God became flesh was to reverse the decision of Adam and Eve to live their lives apart from God and God's guidance. They wanted to be independent. The Bible says that human independence is an illusion, that the reality of the human condition is that humans are enslaved to sin, as humans. They can't awake on their own.

_____________
Sources:

Kurt Randolph, Gnosis -- The Nature & History of Gnosticism.

James M. Robinson, general editor, The Nag Hammadi Library.

Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels.

ON MINDS

Sells and religionists,

"God is a fixed-pint concept surrounded by religion." - Professor Igor Alexander, AI expert, and Professor of Neural Systems Engineering at Imperil College, London. -- Translation, "God is a concept embedded in a personal religious mind".

Further, Alexander states, "God is slightly [I would thought largely]different from God in others [others' minds]. Hence, in the neurology, different minds; see Zeus, Mithras and existing differetnly. This is "how God(s)exists". In the mind. Even Sells says this about Zeus, but, regards as "drivel" the same words applied to Jesus. Wonder if he has an MRI?

- How does Mithras exist?

Relda,

"Humanism is itself a religion without a God... Our ethical ideal has its own disciples of the mind [Freud would have liked that :-)] and heart and gives people the means of finding faith in the ultimate meaning of life that were once provided by more conventional religions." - Karen Armstrong (in Mooney, B., "Devout Sceptics", 2003)

I am a fan of KA too. And the notion of "unconditional positive regard towards others" [try at least] - Carl Rogers

The above ideals seem much more moral (Kohlberg) than the Gods [Abraham & Moses] of the OT and better represent the Sermon the Mount than the teachings of the Christian churches thoughout history.

Albeit, I am not a relionist, there are some religious thinkers, I respect. Peter Abelard broke with the tradition Greek dialogues and revisited how we should review reality, for instance. In Greek dialogues, the master leads the student the final truth.

Regarding your post, I agree many great persons receive the praise, after others have laid the groundwork. Your mention of Eistein is a good example.

Humanists and Christians are at opposite poles. The former starts with the proposition that people are basically good, but sometimes fail themselves. The later sees the people are basically [original sin] bad and sin, under the influence of evil, and, fail their god.

The humanist mind is mainly internally justified and self-actualised. In contrast, the Christian mind is mainly externally justified and elsewhere actualised.

Oliver,

make mine a fixed half-pint thanks! ; ) surrounded by and permeated completely by mostly itself.

God may be a 'concept embedded in a personal religious mind' but what concept isn't embedded in a person's (mathematical, physical,conscious detecting) mind?

What the erstwhile Prof. has not established is whether or not God exists independently of our concepts of it.

My personal belief is that it does. I cannot agree with the concept some religions hold that God is somehow dedicated to hold prime interest in the ravings of a bunch of semi-evolved ape-like creatures on a tiny planet in the middle of an unlimited Universe, and that 'He' holds onto some kind of desire that we worship him and do only good to our fellowman or gives a damn if we do or not. That humans somehow hold the 'key' to fulfilling God's 'plan' for us.

It's just a load of navel gazing.

( Sorry HL i should have warned you to close your eyes even more than you do when reading this bit!)

Man has enough trouble trying to make their understanding of God fit inside their tiny little minds to make some sort of self-justifying sense without trying to understand exactly what God IS. (the one thing i am convinced of and most religious thinkers would agree is that God is NOT human - not even very much like humans, in my mind, any more than Michaelangelo's image of David is human).