Yes gracealOne,

I too found your post different from most of the Christian posters and a bit of a breath of fresh air.

The problem for the author I think, is that he is a scientist and Christian, and the evidential requirements for each of those mind sets conflict, so he is forever trying to show how his religious faith (which by nature is a belief in something that can't be proven) is compatible with science (which by nature is disbelief until something is "proven" beyond reasonable doubt - which can then be revised).

What your post reveals is that it is not 'Judeo-Christian' or 'Australian' values that we should be teaching our children (and of course, living ourselves) but the best 'human' values. The problem however, is not with individuals or even groups within society, it is with a political and economic system which "values" profit over anything else. Any 'values' which conflict with such a system must, if that system is considered 'rational', be shown to be wrong.

Kids are not stupid. If we tell them one thing, while they see that the other thing is 'true' in real life, they can spot it a mile off.

The key is to bring our social, political and economic system into line with human needs and 'values'.

Thank you guys
I have to confess, I am not exactly the dyed-in-the-wool judgemental Christian although I was brought up to be such. In my view, being a little more lateral in my outlook is a lot more effective way of living my faith.

Today I had the opportunity to be involved in a 'School-Yard Blitz.' This involved 550 volunteers from the community, of whom 480 were from churches, getting out and getting our hands dirty together. Bikies, business people, teachers, parents, ministers, tradespeople and caterers - all with the same values of simply doing good.

Did it weaken the testimony of those of us who are Christians? I think not! Did it strengthen our community and provide an example for the youth of today to follow? I am sure! The aging dilapidated primary school is being totally refurbished. What a values message for those dear children when they return. On every face was a smile and on everyone's lips a kind greeting. I didn't see anyone there preaching, although I did see some signs that read something like, 'We give because so much has been given to us.'

Grace1 and Flezzy

good posts.

Flezzy, I'm glad you see those home truths about some Pente churches.
It is a by product of the 'pipeline to heaven' attitude that tends to prevail in many of them. Strict authoritarian discipline also appears to be a characteristic. Not all, but indeed a significant number.

Grace.. I hope you DO bring many of your teaching friends to this forum. I'm sure the exchange of ideas would be good for all of us.

Judgementalism is something we should avoid. I'm sorry you were raised to be that. There is a difference between speaking the truth in love, or.. even in anger, and 'judgementalism'. The pharisee who prayed 'with himself' .. "Oh God, I thank you that I am NOT like that evil tax collector over there" is indicative of 'judgementalism' whereas the tax collectors prayer "Lord, be merciful to me a sinner" was heard by God.

Paul spoke plainly to the Corinthians about their immorality and we also need to be vigilant (for our own sakes as much as anything). Our Lord spoke in a no-nonsense manner to the Laodicean church. So there is a place for criticism, but not 'judgementalism' in the manner of that Pharisee.....

Flezzy, fortunately, the presense of 'pharisees' does not mean that the Lord is not building His Church... remember the wheat and the weeds mate. Look to Him...not to a sad manifestation of 'The Church'.

1. Leigh needs to get outmore - I know countless kids who are supporting themselves through university -working two jobs - paying rent buying books the whole shebang - simialrly therea re kids who ahve just had 20% of there take home pay "disspaeared"by work choices -

2. As for values - this debate is a smoke screen -

After reading the last post, I am inspired to comment to both disagree with and support Leigh's statements. To state that, "Once the young reach level 9 of their secondary education, trying to teach them anything is in vain," indicates that his observations may be biased or limited. For generations, teachers have known that this is the common age when students actually start to be able to control their raging adolescent temperaments and settle down to learning again.

However, I support his comment that, "There are fewer and fewer people left who actually fought and worked hard to get us the good living conditions." In response to INKEEMAGEE2, I also supported myself completely through University for 5 years and graduated last year. Yes, I had to work as well, but that's life. I also think that many students who choose to move out of home have made a choice to financially support themselves and they have to deal with that.

Finally, INKEEMAGEE2, I do not want to appear too sarcastic, but I wonder about the quality of education you received. It appears it was a bit short on spelling, grammar and persuasive writing skills. Hopefully, they di teach you some values.

This Values Education in Australian Schools programme is designed to foster and support improved values education practice in Australian schools.... a federal initiative probably kicked off by Schnelson and now with twitty Bishop. Peter's article has had me reading up on this matter. There are vision statements, national goals, national frameworks, guiding principles, key elements, suggested approaches, glossaries and now some successful participating school clusters to try it out with funding.

Whilst the spin suggests these are about common values it does not draw distinctions on public concerns. In fact there is no mention of public anything in all that I have read. The measure of a society in anyone's value system would place significant emphasis on the core public institutions; public transport and infrastructure; public health; public schooling, education, museums, galleries, libraries; public places, spaces, parks, reserves, beaches, sporting fields, and so on. Then there are public procedures and processes important for maintaining and deepening public trust for ensuring active, participatory democracy that enrich our public life at the local, national and global levels.

In an age of aggressive spin doctoring, diminishing media independence and critique, citizens are often separated from the full story about public concerns. With the current crop of governments it seems that the word "public" is a dirty word. Underfunding and privatisation of vital public services are made behind closed doors in ways that are largely perceived to be undemocratic and herein lies the crux of the democracy deficit. Is Australia to become a value free nation of renters who live in gated communities? There are plenty of "champs" out there in Howard's Australia that would love this trophy life style .....but ..... The difference between champ and chump is U.