Flezzey, I have no time for fundamentalists, but do they really “openly decry democracy as being of the devil”. If it is indeed “open”, perhaps you can supply evidence.

Sells, I agree with your main point, that values education cut off from an underlying narrative is unlikely to take root or transform behaviour. But you may be too quick to dismiss secular culture’s capacity to embed its values in narratives. This is surely what the history wars and current debate about Australian values are all about. Controversy about the selection and presentation of the central Australian historical myths – Gallipoli and the Eureka stockade, the first fleet and terra nullius, the light on the hill and Ned Kelly, the rejection of conscription and England’s perfidy during and after the fall of Singapore – is in essence a battleground about current values, not past events.

Whether these are wholesome or satisfactory narratives is another question.

JohnJ... random... why the person dislike?

I meant personal... sigh there go my two posts for this forum today.

Rhian,
Good point. I do not think I have underestimated how well secular narratives become embedded. That is my point about the secular narrative of consumption, the emphasis on experience, the culture that is essentially to do with the avoidance of suffering and death etc. But these are narratives without a narrative if you will, more like ideologies than narratives derived from historical event. The reason the church gives presence to the narratives of Israel and of Jesus is that these are seen as accurately describing the human dilemma apart from ideology or religion. Of course those narratives that adhere to the nation Australia you mentioned must be important. And yet, if these narratives are interpreted to produce nationalism then we have problems. During its long history Israel realised that nationalistic narratives leads to idolatry and disaster. The nation replaces YHWH and nationalistic triumphalism then eventuates. This is certainly the situation in America, let us not follow!

Sells

Who sees the narratives of Israel and of Jesus as accurately describing the human dilemma apart from ideology or religion? Must be you and your fellow theological “scientists”.

And another gem:

“That is my point about the secular narrative of consumption, the emphasis on experience, the culture that is essentially to do with the avoidance of suffering and death etc”

And there I was thinking Jesus went around healing the sick, bringing the dead back to life. And of course people don’t pray to God for an end to their suffering, a better life.

And no doubt you would tell your flock that they have to open their hearts to Jesus in order to “experience” his love.

And of course the obvious contradiction here is that you are trying to position your beliefs as pseudo-secular narrative i.e “apart from ideology or religion”, and yet you criticise “secular narrative”.

You are a very confused and conflicted man Sells.

YngNLuvnIt, my apologies if you took my jibe personally, it was just meant as a joke.

I think the idea of involving youth in aid projects is a good one, but I'm suspicious of the notion that the "young people of today" have things too easy. You can trace a refrain about the decay of moral fibre in youth back to ancient Greece. To me it is just one more media-driven moral panic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Young people lack experience in the world, because they're YOUNG. One of the few advantages of getting older is having more experience to draw from. Just as well, with hair and teeth falling out, arthritis etc, there's got to be something good about getting older.