My old sparring partner, Boaz - was wondering where you were.

"I fail to see why anyone has a problem with being urged to RUNNNNN from these things and embrace He who will provide motivation and strength to continue WANTing to avoid these things."

Yes, Boaz, I know you fail to see things like that. That's why debating with you is messy, irritating and pretty pointless, like pushing soggy bread into a letterbox.

But for your edification, there are things in this life like humour, satire, irony etc and my contributions on this thread have been attempts at them. OK, maybe poor attempts. Does that spell it out clearly enough for you to see? You can get back to the prayer book now.

Thanks, but I don't want any more deliveries of mail, or bread, today. Give the caplock on your keyboard a rest.

BOAZ_David “The only possible motive I can think of as to why any tradition of the 'Church' would stray from this SIMPLE concept is 'power'... as many of you often accuse (and rightly so)”
Very wise words!

BOAZ, may I also use this idea for my list of Motives/reasons for the invention of / belief in heaven?

So then we’ll have three possible reasons why people invented heaven:

* Power- the church has the power to either punish (hell) or reward (heaven) people for their behaviour/beliefs;

* Narcissistic Separation Anxiety. Well let’s call it that (for fun’s sake, I don’t know a proper word for it). It’s being scared of separation from the love for yourself- I am so important and wonderful that I will live on forever in a perfect environment;

* Safety- it’s a safe feeling knowing that you’ll be looked after in heaven after you die; the universe is so big and cold and scary without heaven.

What other motives/reasons could there be (apart from the love for philly cream cheese snacks)?

Philo,
when you say that heaven is not spatial and cannot be evaluated by physics, fair enough, you may be right about that. But then again, it cannot be evaluated by anything other than physics, either. So how do you know that heaven is real?

The heaven you describe souds like a very nice place, but there is no proof that it exists; the author can't say that some people know ‘too much’ about heaven because the truth of the fact is: we know nothing about it at all.

About the whole heaven and hell thing, I am likely to agree with K£vin when he said: “Heaven and hell are simply states of mind/awareness.”

What we do know for sure about the universe is just this: The universe is made of space, time and atoms. That’s it.

When I look at a newborn rose in my garden I know there is a heaven and when I see slugs, slaters and snails ,I know there is that other place.
I loathe all religions, man made ,man driven, money making misanthropes.
God is in His heaven and may [or not ]show us one day.As He wishes.

Dear Celivia

yes.. you certainly 'may' use the 'invention' of heaven as u did :)

But if I may offer a slightly different perspective ?

Your point about 'separation anxiety'.. might be valid if the type of heaven described in the Bible fitted more the 'idealized human experience'.. such as catering and pandering to our every desire.. like the Islamic version of paradise...

I don't really find 'heaven' to be a destination described in such terms as to attract anything but our 'heart' and deeper self.
There are no 'hot and cold running virgins' for we horny guys... but there is a lion which will lay down with a lamb :) There is 'no more crying' etc i.e. peace.

Heaven would be about power if access to it could be CONTROLLED by an earthly organization (RC Church ?) But the Bible does not support this. There is one verse which wrongly interpreted could suggest it.

The type of heaven arising in nature religions or the pagan Canaanite idolatrous religions must have been a pretty horrible place. The gods always fighting, the children needing to be burnt alive to appease them... wow...

Nope.. I think the idea of heaven was firstly not 'invented' and definitely not for 'power'. The concept of INDULGENCES where sin could be forgiven by the Church 'for a price' was inDEED about power and money...but such ideas are foreign to the Bible. They are the 'Traditions of men' as Jesus described such things.

It was Christ Himself who said "In my Fathers house are many rooms"
I pray you will inhabit one of them when you meet our Creator :)
It will cost you nothing, yet everything, at the same time.

'I have come, that they might have life, and have it abundantly' (Jesus)

BOAZ, thanks for your interesting perspective!

OK let’s then imagine that heaven is real.
Let’s do a fun calculation but correct me if I ‘m wrong- maths is a weak point for me (so is religion).

Christianity is currently the biggest religion on earth; about 33% of people in the world are christians. So let’s take christianity for our example.

Say, for the sake of this discussion, that Christians got it right and they are the only ones that have the opportunity to go to heaven.

But…Christians are divided into different denominations: Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Evangelicans, Jehova’s witnesses for example.
Which one is the right one? Do all Christians have equal opportunity to go to heaven or do you have to belong to a specific denomination to make it in?

Let’s say that all Christians potentially can gain entry into heaven, that is 33%.

Of that 33%, some will have stuffed it up during their lifetime and don’t make it in.
Perhaps, being generous, 25% of that 33% will make it. Phew… for them.

That means that at least 75% of all people on earth will go to hell, according to these principles.

That percentage will be much higher if it’s only one domination that determines whether we go to hell or not.

If another religion would be the right one, the amount of people going to hell will even be bigger since the next biggest religion is Islam with only 22%!

So as almost all people will end up in hell anyway, why not have some fun in life instead of worrying about all those rigid bible rules all of your life!

Dear Celivia
those are important question and I'll post the cheque in the mail for asking them :) *smile*.....

But in this case, clearly the questions are from the heart...so I'll do my best to respond.

Which 'religion' is right ?

Well clearly 'MINE' :) don't u luv that one ? So, what is 'mine'.
it is that living faith which feels at home in most of the traditions you mentioned above, with the exception of Jehovah's witnesses and the Roman Cathlolics. I'm basically 'Conservative Evangelical Protestant' which means that the particular tradition and building I inhabit is not the critical issue, but whether I love the Lord or not.
Pesnally, I cannot see how anyone who does not believe Christ rose from the dead could or would ever call themselves 'Christian' and some Liberal traditions even withIN some mainstream denominations are characterized by this view.

I separate the RC only in the sense of the 'formal' organization, not the individual souls who are Catholics. I'm sure there are many Catholics who in their hearts do love the Lord and have the sense not to 'deify' Mary as the Church has come close to doing, and whether they are right on every point of doctrine will not matter as much as whether they actually do seek the (Biblical)Lord with all their hearts.

I never enter into calculations about 'How many will rejoice' and 'how many will burn'... its a grotesque representation of the reality of Gods dealings with humankind.

One thing is sure, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right" ?
Read Genesis 18 and see the dialogue there.

I know this much though, any person can be saved by turning their heart in repentance and faith to God. The question is.....will they?
Even you yourself, know the 'way' .. you have heard the gospel, that in Christ, we are made right before God, through repentance and faith.

So, you need to ask yourself ( as do we all) what is happening in your heart and mind in the light of that information.