OK point taken Steve. I'm not saying that their obsessive flag waving is good, bad, or indifferent, what would I know? I'm not American.

The spirit of the flag waving is not only about nationalism. The scale of patriotism is a defensive part of US culture that few us will understand. This is a beast that even Australian Republicans have not grasped as they try to make nationalists out of larrikans.

Think of the student riots in Beijing in 1990. The Chinese communist Government massacred the students, and their "statue of liberty" was destroyed. Guess what the students were singing as they were being killed? They actually sang "the Internationale". The only song they knew which represented liberation. Interesting. What is in a song?

The Union Jack unites England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Northern Ireland. Or course England was a democracy since the times of the Magna Charter. The US solidified this with a Bill of Rights. Even the UK has one now.

I think the lesson we can learn from US patriotism is that we misunderstand their nationalistic thing. It has something to do with affirming that they earned their position by being second class to no one. They had a revolution. They proved a point with their Bill of Rights and believed that they were the saviours from tyranny. Now there is arrogance with pride, and this is the weakness of patriotism.

By nature, we with Canada and New Zealand are less patriotic. We know that our Head of State is a foreign Monarch. Ironically, Australia is more willing to play second class to the Superpowers than New Zealand, Canada, and other commonwealth countries.

If we keep the monarchy as our sovereign Head of State, technically the Royal Buckingham Palace Flag should be the ensign of our flag, not the Flag of the United Kingdom. The Crown Queen of Australia is our sovereign Head of State, not the British Government.

Give me Australian democracy before patriotism.

Rainier,
Australian Democracy?
Does it exist?
The Town of Toowoomba has just had a vote to drink their own sewage or not.
Sixty-two percent of the townsfolk voted No, they want rainwater instead Rainier.
Hours after the vote was known Qld Premier said the State will have another vote in 2008.
He would only say that if he knew 100 percent that the vote would reverse. Two "No" votes and politics is gone.
So how to guarantee a "yes" vote?
Put the water rates up untill the people surrender.
That is Australian democracy.
Peter Beattie know there will be a "yes" vote in 2008.
It doesn't matter what the people of Toowoomba voted in 2006.
Democracy doesn't exist.
The Toowoomba vote was just the paper shuffling in the great play that we are going to drink our own piss in the driest country on Earth. Let's wave the flag.

Rainer, US patriotism is not all bad. Yes, the USA folk will "rally round the flag" in time of crisis (just as Indigenous folk do) but folk are not stupid (albeit we can be misinformed and ignorant at times - Rainer and Rancitas excluded, of course). If an elected US official messes with democratic principles or US folks heads - they will be out on their ear. Bush is on a slippery slope.

Genuine patriotism (not silly old jingoism)ensures democracy.

Rainer I love the Australian flag for my own reasons.
Rainer I also love the Indigenous flag for my own reasons.
Both can have deep positive symbolic meaning within a person's mindset and culture.

When I see an Australian flag, among other things, it symbolises the good things about Australia.

When I see an Indigenous flag, it symbolises the good things about this southernland and those peoples (and their decendants) who walked this land long before my settler great, great,grandfolks.

Tell me why I can't love two things at once? Sometimes it is best to take the good with the bad.

I acknowlege the symbolic negatives of my flag, but I will not discard it. I acknowledge the negatives of my country but I am "always faithful".

If this mawkishnesss makes you feel like having a wee chunder, then I aint sorry old mate.

Re: the water thing in Toowoomba. There are a few meatworks around Toowoomba that depend on using copious amounts of water. When all those workers lose their jobs because of No campaign's emotional carry on and misinformation (and old Clive's desire for validation), well let's see these "useful idiots" put their money where their mouth is and guarantee to pay lost wages and prop up all the small businesses that go under.

This is National Party area. Past local "developers'" council and the local State Members are responsible for failing to build the infrastructure needed for a reliable water supply.

Toowoomba was once a vessel overflowing with potental, but alas the developers emptied the vessel into their own pockets and now we're high and dry.

Flag-worship is a particularly US phenomenon.
There are only 3 countries who ever had a pledge of alliegance to its flag - Ancient Rome, the USA and Nazi Germany.
The actual USA pledge was modified after WW2 because it resembled the Nazi salute and later included the words "under God".

Flag waving wasn't what made that country strong - it was slavery.

It would be better the reflect and act on what lies behind the symbol than the symbol itself. People don't die for a piece of cloth - its what the cloth represents that matters.

Doom,

Despite your drawn out post, I still totally disagree with you and your point of view. Never the twain shall meet.

Rancitas,

You still haven’t answered the question. What proves me to be a liar? You called me a liar before the banned substances comment, so where is the proof that I’m a liar? Perhaps a ‘liar’ is just anyone who disagrees with you? As for ‘character assassination’ I put it to you that you do that to yourself with what you utter and that blog site you seem to be proud of.

What’s this habit of referring to yourself in the third person?

On the matter of ‘slagging off’, I am not a hypocrite. I’ve just done it a few times recently to show you and your odd bod mates that I can give it as well as take it. Some of you just can’t leave other people alone. I am not going to make a habit of it as I am fully aware that it doesn’t achieve anything. And it's pretty damn childish, and it makes me look as silly as you are.

Still nothing proved! How do you work out that a malicious lie can be defined as ‘intent to wound’?

‘Water tight arguments’? I’m sure you believe that.

‘Serious debate’? With you! Not likely