I like the last line:
"It's about believing that the stories and experiences of people in this country are worth being told."
And then Rachael Hills pulled the other leg stretched down into the harbour from the ship and yanked up a billy of tea. Boston Harbour was full of it. The Yank said "Now let's hear an Australian story and she said: "Well they have stopped fishing in the Parramatta River."
"Hey you Aussies arer just copying us. I suppose you drink coffee over there in the 'matter'.

Change “Australian self-deprecation” for Australian shame or self-hatred. The states in control of the education systems are all of the left-wing PC variety and they, with the help of their academic fellow travellers, have encouraged the ‘Australia has no history, black armband, ashamed to be Australian bleating that the media and letters to the editor are flooded with. To be fair, the Federal Government these idiots regard as conservative is not all that much better.

National pride is a dirty thing in Australia. Perhaps Americans do sometimes go over the top with their national pride, but that is no excuse for our often-appalling attitude to our own country.

Since the enforcement of multiculturalism, the cowardly lickspittles have become more ardent in their dislike for their own country and culture by banning children’s simple pleasures and attacking Christmas because they might upset Muslims or hyphenated Australian’s with dual citizenship.

The author’s comments on the insularity of many Americans are correct: that’s America’s loss. But the fact remains that Americans love their country while Australians are too busy loving other people’s countries and, in doing so, are encouraging foreigners and immigrants to feel contempt for Australians, as well as their country.

British backpackers mistaking our flag for the Union Jack? What rubbish.

“What's inspiring about US patriotism isn't the blind love of country, but the commitment to shared values and dreams: a commitment which sometimes involves challenging your country to live up to those values and dreams.”

Spot on. But America has handled immigration much better than we have, and with the exception of you-know-who, their immigrants have been expected to, and have, accepted shared values and dreams.

Politicians, the leftish academics and the 'ethnic' industry have deliberately discouraged that process in Australia, and their can never be any shared dreams and values among the resulting disparate tribes that now live here.

Leigh

Your "But America has handled immigration much better than we have, and with the exception of you-know-who, their immigrants have been expected to, and have, accepted shared values and dreams. " statement puzzles me.

Do you consider 20 million "illegal aliens" (about the population of Australia) who are entitled to no support from Govt. are employed as "slave labour" and drive US wages down to a minimum of $5 an hour. Good immigration policy?

America was created as a result of war that is why they are into flag waving and patriotism, we on the other hand only have the Eureka Stockade as our attempt at revolution, the workers against unfair government and corrupt institutions - see any relevance today?

LEIGH,
"But America has handled immigration much better than we have, and with the exception of you-know-who, their immigrants have been expected to, and have, accepted shared values and dreams."

1.whom might you be referring to when you say "with the exception of you-know-who"?

2.Have you ever lived in or visited America?

3.Have you ever lived in or visited the Middle East?

Having read much of your ill-informed xenophobia in this forum Im guessing that the answers to these questions are:
1.Muslims
2.No
3.No
....How did i do?
Leigh i wish you a speedy recovery from your "Australian shame or self-hatred"...though perhaps in your case its not completely without foundation.
God forbid Australians should ever 'aspire to' the shameless, blind,self-aggrandising arrogance and hubris of American 'patriotism'.

"There's nothing in Australia" is more a display of ignorance than anything else. Australia has over 200 years of white history and thousands of years' indiginous history. How much is enough?

America's 'shared values' are currently tax cuts for the wealthy, limiting access to abortion facilities, and the reduction of complex issues problems into natty one-liners.

Pride is fine, until it leads to hubris.

Good Point Doom,

It seems Leigh hates Australia the most because its supposedly full of pinkos and Muslims, he's so dillusional.

Patriotism sux, I love the earth, I'm proud of many people from this country, past and present, and I'm ashamed of others, the same can probably be said for every other country in the world.

The world has been become much smaller, nationalism may one day become out-dated, I beleive it would be better if people pledged their allegiance to humanity and to the well being of the planet.

Good heavens. I really hope that Australia becomes nothing like America in it's flag waving patriotism.

Australian Patrotism is subtle, and its history is there, but unlike America, not in your face. Australia does, have great outpourings on patriotism - ANZAC day and Australia day immediately come to mind. Stories of ANZAC are worth telling and listening to and becoming more popular. The tourism to Gallipoli has never been bigger.

Steve M, you mentioned Eureka Stockade - what about Vinegar Hill during the Rum Rebellion. Only Australia could have a Rebellion named after an intoxicating drink :)

Narcissist,

For heavens sake get your facts right. The Vinegar Hill rising, when the NSW Corps saw off the convict rebels in about 15 minutes, occurred in March 1804. The Rum Rebellion, when Governor Bligh was arrested by the Corps in a bloodless coup (the only resistance was from Mary Putnam, Bligh's daughter, and that was with her parasol), occurred on Anniversary Day, the 25th January, 1808.

It is obvious that we need an upgrade in the teaching of our very colorful history. Most of these interesting events are not taught as they should be, presumably as they are considered too threatening to authority. I can only hope that any such upgrade will include Captain De Groot, who totally humiliated Premier Jack Lang when De Groot opened the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

Leigh, you're a proven malicious liar, so please don’t try con us into thinking your Israeli/Hezbollah like disregard for civilians is Australian.

Let's use your attitude for conflict resolution in your backyard.

Let’s say you have really pissed your neighbour off. He has been giving you the shieets for years but he usually settles down after the demons come round and give you all the drum and threaten to shop you all.

One day you two have a bit go over some of his garden gnomes that irritate you. There is a scuffle and you “imprison” one of his favourite garden gnomes that he had picked up to threaten you with. That night he comes around with his army of mates to liberate his gnomes. First he blows up your garden shed. This “ accidentally” kills your granny and two of your kids and totally ruins your backyard. The bombing also kills a few dozen of your close neighbours.

Some of your mates were around for Latte and they escape. Your neighbour then gets his mates to bomb the neighbourhood to flush them out.

Then a bunch of his” platoon” come and terrorise the neighbourhood to soften you a little more.

Now, some of the soldiers aren’t as moral as the others so they take it turns raping your spouse (according to Boaz that’s an unavoidable part of conflict and offhandedly waves aside the USA marines raping of a young girl as part of conflict ).

You go into hiding so they keep bombing in the hope that they will get you. The media come and start to televise the events. They blow them up so their mates in the wider community don’t hear about it.

They then get their mates in the media to blame you for taking your neighbours gnomes and being a pest for the last few years.

In this situation, from afar you, Leigh, you are supporting your idiot neighbour’s way of resolving a conflict. Of course, if your neighbour was Muslim, you’d reject the behaviour.

The Australian coat of arms has message opposite to Leigh's.

Narc

Of course you are correct, but the term Rum Rebellion was first used about 50 years later by a Quaker who blamed the demon drink for all the evils of the world. It was really a fight between Govt. and business, guess what business won. (same thing today).

Vinegar Hill was about oppressed Irish Convicts who were the first reviled minority in Australia (different ethnic group today).

A Patriot has totally different meaning in America, the "insurgents" fighting the British Govt. called themselves the Patriots others called them traitors. (same today)

As an aside America has a Patriot Act. A freind of mine has had her payment on Mastercard "intercepted" by homeland security (she works as a commissioned artist and lives on the card between cheques) they have held the payment for 14 days now and there is no mechanism to get the money, it is perfectly legal !!

Australia has nothing to learn from America and their Patriots.

plirdsuss,
Oh so we have a public servant libararian who dots eyes and crosses teas and looks up the calandar and watches the clock to the precise second.
Dates don't have to be right, maybe only to the paranoid.
Dates have nutrients like iron and potassium but real history has meaning about human beings not dates.
History is being changed by John Howard that all history is about dates.
Well munch on a date palm.
Real history is His Story, the story of man and woman on Earth and the passion and compassion and the blood and guts of those events.
Dates, Bah Humbug. Oh dear what date did Scrooge say that. It is so important.
Remember Henry Ford said "History is Bunk". It is bunk when all it is, is dates.

I think the article makes a good point, but does not go far enough. The cultural cringe that Australia exhibits is bizzarre. It seems that we are a nation of people who only define ourselves as Australian because we happen to find ourselves here. Everyone seems to yearn to be someone else and is always happy to ditch their allegience to Australia whenever convenient. Groups call themselves "Italian-Australians", "Greek-Australians", "Asian-Australians", etc.

While my parents were born overseas, I was born in Australia and call myself an Australian, and my parents, who became citizens of this country, also call themselves Australian. We are proud of this country, what it has achieved, and what it has allowed us, as individuals and as a family, to achieve. It annoys me when so-called Australians ask me where I'm from, and when I answer "Australia", they say, "No, where are you from originally?"

Multiculturalism is a structure used by Anglo-Australians and by certain self appointed ethnic "leaders" to create and foster an underclass of "ethnic Australians", which make them feel better about themselves. As economic distinctions have largely fallen away, multiculturalism has allowed certain segments of the community to institute a class system which is much more palatable, yet just as insidious. Multiculuralism enforces stereotypes, fuels false controversy and has fostered an entire industry of people who simultaneously foster an underclass while claiming to defend the underclass. The sooner we as a nation rid ourselves of multiculturalism and of the cultural cringe, the sooner we can get on with building a better and more cohesive society.

Gekko: I think the whole point about Australian patriotism is that it allows the cultural cringe and the hyphenated Australians, yet I think for all but the most hardline idiots, if you scratch the surface, they really do consider themselves Australian and are glad to be here and part of this society.

For all of Australia's faults, it has been far more moderate than most places on earth and has largely avoided the periodic blood-letting that seems de rigueur of just about every other place (eg. we've never fought a war or a rvolution here, and as much as some would lead us to believe, we're far less racist than most countries). It's certainly not perfect here, but our pluralism serves us well I think, and like I said, that both requires and produces the cultural cringe.

"Australia has nothing to learn from America and their Patriots."

Steve Madden: This sort of anti-Americanism is willingly ignorant and dishonest. It's an incredible over-simplification of an incredibly complex (and at times quite troubled) nation with an incredibly complex history that has produced a wealth of thinkers, writers and political dissidents (from Jefferson to Thoreau to Chomsky), not to mention art and culture (don't even say that America has no culture because just about every music genre spawned in the 20th century originated in the U.S.). Stop parroting the fashionable anti-American line and actually learn something about the place.

Our history's wonderful, better than the rest of the world. It's unique, untouched for thousands of years, the last 200 years produced a lively, colourful, adventurous history, both good and bad. It's set us aside as unique, superior to others in courage and mateship.

You see pride, patriotism, camaraderie, in our expression to the world. For our size we attain higher standards than most countries, we top most endeavours we enter, show great courage, dedication when threatened or helping others, we're admired throughout the world..

We're seen as peaceful, accepting and tolerant, as we express that way. I doubt there's a country who sees Australia as a threat to them , so we need the example of USA patriotism, like a hole in the head.

Examples the USA gives to the world, invasion, unrelenting destruction, abuse of trading partners, most polluting, the most WMD used every day. Who needs that flag waving example.

We don't need to fly our flag, its our example to the world that counts, we stand for our country, our flag represents us, we don't represent our flag. Our flag should represent our history and culture, not someone elses.

Sadly there's those amongst us whose agenda is disrupting and fragmenting our culture, they only care for themselves and what they represent. In all cases its power and control.

We see it in the drive of the right wing towards totalitarian economic control. The lefts push towards chaotic confusion, so they can gain control. Worst of all, as it involves both left and right,we have the 3 factions of god, working together for control and against each other for control.

In a country priding itself on giving everyone a go, we seem to be giving the wrong people a go. The most patriotic thing Australians can do, is to protect our culture. We have to stop the economic, social and theological take over of a culture that makes us uniquely us.

Rachel Hills, is that a jewish name, or Texan..

Canada,The UK and America are quite different than Australia.Why?I don't know exactly,maybe its the White Australia's only policy.That probally gave some Australians inner arrogance towards people who are not white,new ethnics.

The UK Canada and America never really had White only policies.America is a country naturally made-up of immigrants old and new ones.Immigrants in Canada and The UK don't really live under a microscope. The UK has every immigrant from every country.Yet you still see this:

http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=71182467ew2.jpg

America doesn't always give to recieve something back in return.

America gives more money to poor countries than anyone else.But You'd never know about it, or even hear it much.America is a bless country,Australia is too.But America is different.
It has racism,crime, sin,but it also has caring people,even though they have a very high homeless rate themselves.

An interview was done with Oprah Winfrey a few years ago on ABC,America.
The reporter ask her:Some People will asked, why are you giving to Africa,when America has alot of disavantage children?

Oprah said:She knows about America's disavantage children, because she was one herself. Growing up in the racist South,being born a poor black girl was not easy.But she grew up in a country where she could change that with Education and hard work.

Oprah+poverty+America+Education+hardwork=billionaire.Alot of famous extremely rich Americans grew-up disadvantage.

Australia should treat new immigrants the same as other Australians, if they want them to seem more 'regular'.

The great irony about those who ramble about Australins being full of self hatred - is that they are quite reaady to hate the haters - and Australian haters seem to be every where, in the media, our schools and universities, unions, the ranks of the labour party, the greens and the democrats, probably the church no doubt as well - or those they describe as Australian haters - so in a perverse way - in their mind the continent is just one big pool of hatred - those that hate Australia and those that hate those who hate Australia.

ALl this garbage about shared values - excuse me while I puke. These pages are full of references to them what ever they are - shared values strikes me as nothing more than another form of orthodoxy and control - not for me I think

I dont see the hatred myself - and personally I dont want any part of shared values - I'll share a few and eschew the rest - I dont even like the flag that much - in fact it's breath takingly un spectacular and has little or no meaning to me at all -

Australia is a pile of dirt upon which I live nothing more nothing less - I did not choose to live here I have just chosen to stay here - there a aspects of it that are splendid, marvelous worth celebrating and shouting from the roof tops about - and there aspects of it that are woefull, lamentabl,stupid shamefull and need to be exposed as such all day every day -

To recognise that as the truth of the matter is to be truly Australian.

Steve,

Yes, I did overlook that particular weakness: America’s inability to stop the continual string of illegals into the country. We do better only because of geography and, even then, we allow most of them to stay on their own, un-checkable say so. We are just as weak.

I hope you are not expecting me to lament the fact that illegal entrants in America are not entitled to government assistance, nor that they are being paid $5 an hour when they should not be in the country in the first place, let alone working.

Perhaps we could just agree that the employers of illegals are scumbags, and that the new IR laws for Australians stink?

Doom,

Such a reassuring name.

1. Muslims
2. No
3. No

Have you heard of reading, current affairs etc?

I not the one who is ashamed of, or hates Australia. I was talking about left wing nutters. Not much comprehension in your reading, Doom!

Carl,

Agreeing with Doom says it all about you. I am pleased to be Australian and pity anyone who is not. Your guess is right, though, about how I feel about you and many people who live here.

Rancid,

What proves me to be a “malicious liar”? I’m obviously not speaking for anyone else but myself. I would hardly be speaking for you, would I?

I gave the rest of your post a miss. The old banned substances seem to be doing the talking.

Oh dear, silly me. Plerdsus is obviously correct that the Rum Rebellion was a spontaneous coup that occured in Jan 1808 with the overthrow of Gov. Bligh while he was hiding under his bed being defended by his daughter....

A bit like saying that Arthur Phillip was an expert sailor (yet the colony almost starved beside being located on Sydney Harbour where the fish weren't so full of toxins, and planting European Grains according to a European Almanac.

The whole history of Syndey Cove in the pre-Macquarie era is one of incompetence of leadership - which was why Bligh was supposedly over thrown in the first place.

Leigh says:

"America has handled immigration much better than we have"
Then when challenged on this statement says:
"We do better only because of geography" ...leigh,which is it?

In response to my challenging Leigh about (her?)actual experience or knowledge of life in America and the Middle East in which i accurately suggest (she?) has little, Leigh lamely retorts"Have you heard of reading, current affairs etc?".Yes i have Leigh,and its because of having read about history and current affairs and having visited/lived in America and a number of Middle Eastern countries many times over the last 30 years that i am able to see clearly that you have no real understanding of what you are pontificating about.

Leigh then gives further evidence of (her?) ignorance and lack of awareness by saying:
"Not much comprehension in your reading, Doom!"...Leigh,my reading of you was spot on n'est ce pas? and to Carl:
"Agreeing with Doom says it all about you." Actually Leigh agreeing with me says nothing whatsoever about Carl except that he disagrees with you.
Leigh then demonstrates (her?)character further with the comment: "Australians are too busy loving other people’s countries and, in doing so, are encouraging foreigners and immigrants to feel contempt for Australians, as well as their country."Leigh,are you saying that showing love to foreigners and understanding and tolerating their differences causes them to feel contempt for us? Tell me then,what resulting reaction would you expect from foreigners if you showed them contempt,disdain and discrimination? Would they respect you then?Would they appreciate and wish to be part of your "shared dreams and values"? I suspect not.

"National pride is a dirty thing in Australia." Leigh,national pride is only a dirty thing when represented by people with inhumane,ignorant,fearful,racially and religiously discriminatory attitudes such as yours.

Leigh you are a liar - a proven liar. You have little ethics in your posting behaviour.
Leigh asks: “What proves me to be a ‘malicious liar’? I’m obviously not speaking for anyone else but myself .”
And here I am not speaking for anyone but Rancitas. You are a malicious liar. The lie was calculated to wound and assassinate Rancitas’ character. You are trying to reduce his cred among the OLO community.
Leigh you stated: “Noticed that … and Rancitas are still on illegal substances.” This proves you a malicious lie. That is your undoing.
Like the rest of your thinking it is based on a close-minded approach. You make big of not reading others posts but then go on to attack ideas that you admit that you haven’t read. Assumption-based “logic” ,and huge dose of nastiness, with no evidence to back it up. Weak as water Leigh.
I have also proven you a hypocrite. You go on about how moral and right you are and how you never slag off at other people yet OLO is strewn with your nastiness.
It is a proven direct lie. You are a liar Leigh without credibility.
Given tone and content of your posts I’d say it is a malicious lie – intent to wound..
Moreover, It has nothing to with my post.
Are you trying to tell me that you are joking? You’d have to be dead serious wouldn’t you? A big brave Leigh wouldn’t be afraid to speak their mind? Not in regard to a fibble little pencil-thin Ranc.
If Rancitas post is so weak ,why not address the information? My strength is my water tight arguments? You tremble at the thought of serious debate. Or are you telling me that telling malicious lies is serious? Ends justifies the means is your motto hey Leigh.
Why attack the person? It is character assassination. You’re up to level three of the right- wingers rules of engagement. The information that hard to counter Leigh?
The moderators on OLO really like you Leigh. You must be prettier than me.

Prouder Than You
(Author come Aussies who wrote it?)

IF YOU fancy that your people came of better stock than mine,
If you hint of higher breeding by a word or by a sign,
If you’re proud because of fortune or the clever things you do—
Then I’ll play no second fiddle: I’m a prouder man than you!
If you think that your profession has the more gentility,
And that you are condescending to be seen along with me;
If you notice that I’m shabby while your clothes are spruce and new—
You have only got to hint it: I’m a prouder man than you!

If you have a swell companion when you see me on the street,
And you think that I’m too common for your toney friend to meet,
So that I, in passing closely, fail to come within your view—
Then be blind to me for ever: I’m a prouder man than you!

If your character be blameless, if your outward past be clean,
While ’tis known my antecedents are not what they should have been,
Do not risk contamination, save your name whate’er you do—
‘Birds o’ feather fly together’: I’m a prouder bird than you!

Keep your patronage for others! Gold and station cannot hide
Friendship that can laugh at fortune, friendship that can conquer pride!
Offer this as to an equal—let me see that you are true,
And my wall of pride is shattered: I am not so proud as you.


McKeller's "MY Country". Mates when I learnt this at school it was as if she could read my heart? This country runs through my veins.
I tells ya', if an immigrant chick and fella whose been here only a few generations feel this way, I can't even imagine how the Indigenous must feel. It must be burnt so much deeper into their hearts and souls.

"All you who have not loved her,
You will not understand-
Though Earth holds many splendours,
Wherever I may die,
I know to what brown country,
My homing thoughts will fly."

I went to school in the US, and I know that you cannot compare our two cultures in terms of how we see ourselves, how we relate to Government, how we see the responsibility our government means, how we see individual liberties and how we see our flag.

The flag in the US is a religious icon that represents all this as a dream. It represents modern government which shaped most modern democracies in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Their dream was a new world, and there was a desire not to make the same mistakes as Europe. Their free thinking flourished new and enlightened ways of innovation: unthought of in Europe. They found their own dignity in this freedom. The Bill of rights guaranteed it. Their flag was the religious icon proving it. Their war of independence resonates "patriotism", affirming the validity of their unique modernism.

As of the 1996 Australia act, Australia became our own sovereign nation under Paul Keating. This meant that we don't actually have our own flag at all. The Union Jack in sovereign postition contradticts our sovereignty making our flag a foreign flag. The official ensign on the top left corner of the flag shows the dominion that you are sovereign to.

Not that this matters. Why have a spiritual icon with no spirit of meaning?

I agree with Malcolm Frazer that before we talk of any republic or flag waving, the premise of Australia must be as a free country based in a guaranteed Bill of Rights. Waving flags for the sake of nationalism itself can incite violence as it only means nationalism and nothing else.

We still don't have one a basis for a flag that captures the spirit of Australia. No wonder we have less to celebrate.

Never-the-less, the actual flag and the republican issues are secondary to our guarantees of freedom. This is what generates our unique Australian freedom and will inspire our dignity in time.

Thank you for the article

I love Australia!

"The flag in the US is a religious icon that represents all this as a dream. It represents modern government which shaped most modern democracies in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries"

Sigh... I am glad I went to school in England.

OK point taken Steve. I'm not saying that their obsessive flag waving is good, bad, or indifferent, what would I know? I'm not American.

The spirit of the flag waving is not only about nationalism. The scale of patriotism is a defensive part of US culture that few us will understand. This is a beast that even Australian Republicans have not grasped as they try to make nationalists out of larrikans.

Think of the student riots in Beijing in 1990. The Chinese communist Government massacred the students, and their "statue of liberty" was destroyed. Guess what the students were singing as they were being killed? They actually sang "the Internationale". The only song they knew which represented liberation. Interesting. What is in a song?

The Union Jack unites England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Northern Ireland. Or course England was a democracy since the times of the Magna Charter. The US solidified this with a Bill of Rights. Even the UK has one now.

I think the lesson we can learn from US patriotism is that we misunderstand their nationalistic thing. It has something to do with affirming that they earned their position by being second class to no one. They had a revolution. They proved a point with their Bill of Rights and believed that they were the saviours from tyranny. Now there is arrogance with pride, and this is the weakness of patriotism.

By nature, we with Canada and New Zealand are less patriotic. We know that our Head of State is a foreign Monarch. Ironically, Australia is more willing to play second class to the Superpowers than New Zealand, Canada, and other commonwealth countries.

If we keep the monarchy as our sovereign Head of State, technically the Royal Buckingham Palace Flag should be the ensign of our flag, not the Flag of the United Kingdom. The Crown Queen of Australia is our sovereign Head of State, not the British Government.

Give me Australian democracy before patriotism.

Rainier,
Australian Democracy?
Does it exist?
The Town of Toowoomba has just had a vote to drink their own sewage or not.
Sixty-two percent of the townsfolk voted No, they want rainwater instead Rainier.
Hours after the vote was known Qld Premier said the State will have another vote in 2008.
He would only say that if he knew 100 percent that the vote would reverse. Two "No" votes and politics is gone.
So how to guarantee a "yes" vote?
Put the water rates up untill the people surrender.
That is Australian democracy.
Peter Beattie know there will be a "yes" vote in 2008.
It doesn't matter what the people of Toowoomba voted in 2006.
Democracy doesn't exist.
The Toowoomba vote was just the paper shuffling in the great play that we are going to drink our own piss in the driest country on Earth. Let's wave the flag.

Rainer, US patriotism is not all bad. Yes, the USA folk will "rally round the flag" in time of crisis (just as Indigenous folk do) but folk are not stupid (albeit we can be misinformed and ignorant at times - Rainer and Rancitas excluded, of course). If an elected US official messes with democratic principles or US folks heads - they will be out on their ear. Bush is on a slippery slope.

Genuine patriotism (not silly old jingoism)ensures democracy.

Rainer I love the Australian flag for my own reasons.
Rainer I also love the Indigenous flag for my own reasons.
Both can have deep positive symbolic meaning within a person's mindset and culture.

When I see an Australian flag, among other things, it symbolises the good things about Australia.

When I see an Indigenous flag, it symbolises the good things about this southernland and those peoples (and their decendants) who walked this land long before my settler great, great,grandfolks.

Tell me why I can't love two things at once? Sometimes it is best to take the good with the bad.

I acknowlege the symbolic negatives of my flag, but I will not discard it. I acknowledge the negatives of my country but I am "always faithful".

If this mawkishnesss makes you feel like having a wee chunder, then I aint sorry old mate.

Re: the water thing in Toowoomba. There are a few meatworks around Toowoomba that depend on using copious amounts of water. When all those workers lose their jobs because of No campaign's emotional carry on and misinformation (and old Clive's desire for validation), well let's see these "useful idiots" put their money where their mouth is and guarantee to pay lost wages and prop up all the small businesses that go under.

This is National Party area. Past local "developers'" council and the local State Members are responsible for failing to build the infrastructure needed for a reliable water supply.

Toowoomba was once a vessel overflowing with potental, but alas the developers emptied the vessel into their own pockets and now we're high and dry.

Flag-worship is a particularly US phenomenon.
There are only 3 countries who ever had a pledge of alliegance to its flag - Ancient Rome, the USA and Nazi Germany.
The actual USA pledge was modified after WW2 because it resembled the Nazi salute and later included the words "under God".

Flag waving wasn't what made that country strong - it was slavery.

It would be better the reflect and act on what lies behind the symbol than the symbol itself. People don't die for a piece of cloth - its what the cloth represents that matters.

Doom,

Despite your drawn out post, I still totally disagree with you and your point of view. Never the twain shall meet.

Rancitas,

You still haven’t answered the question. What proves me to be a liar? You called me a liar before the banned substances comment, so where is the proof that I’m a liar? Perhaps a ‘liar’ is just anyone who disagrees with you? As for ‘character assassination’ I put it to you that you do that to yourself with what you utter and that blog site you seem to be proud of.

What’s this habit of referring to yourself in the third person?

On the matter of ‘slagging off’, I am not a hypocrite. I’ve just done it a few times recently to show you and your odd bod mates that I can give it as well as take it. Some of you just can’t leave other people alone. I am not going to make a habit of it as I am fully aware that it doesn’t achieve anything. And it's pretty damn childish, and it makes me look as silly as you are.

Still nothing proved! How do you work out that a malicious lie can be defined as ‘intent to wound’?

‘Water tight arguments’? I’m sure you believe that.

‘Serious debate’? With you! Not likely

Leigh,

"Despite your drawn out post, I still totally disagree with you and your point of view. Never the twain shall meet."

My "point of view"...totally Leigh?
How surprising that you should so swiftly have formed such a rigid and entrenched attitude towards something that you have little or no knowledge,experience or understanding of.

"If an elected US official messes with democratic principles or US folks heads - they will be out on their ear. Bush is on a slippery slope."

rancitas: Well, technically, it doesn't matter whether the people love him or hate him. Short of declaring himself dictator, he's gone at the next election anyway since American politicians are limited to two terms. As to what legacy he will leave for the next Republican presidential candidate (or even future Republican Congressmen and Senators), that's another issue, but Bush himself is not on a slippery slope. He can more or less coast through the rest of his presidency and it doesn't matter whether he does a fantastic or a terrible job.

Excuse me, you did really better to read my 6-7-2006 publication;

INSPECTOR-RIKATI® & What is the -Australian way of life- really?
A book on CD on Australians political, religious & other rights
ISBN 0-9751760-2-1

Australians are perhaps the dumbest people in the world (see my website (www.schorel-hlavka.com) who do not even understand what they are.

Constitutionally, Australians are Australians because they are residing in the Continent of Australia, regardless of their nationality might be!

Native Australians are deemed to be Aboriginals and others born in Australia.
Australian “citizenship” is based upon a person being granted by a State “State citizenship” and by this the person AUTOMATICALLY is provided with “Australian citizenship” involving political rights, nothing to do with nationality.

The Commonwealth of Australia can only naturalize “aliens” to become British nationals as is any person born in the Commonwealth of Australia.

There is no such county as Australia as the Commonwealth of Australia is a POLITICAL UNION like the European Union is.

Constitutionally, the official anthem is “God save the Queen”, and the official flag is and remains the Union Jack.

There is no such creature as Queen of Australia either, this as the Commonwealth of Australia is neither a kingdom, empire, dominion, colony, or republic as it is merely a very limited POLITICAL UNION between the colonies (now States) who themselves remained to be Colonies.

As such, Australians, regardless of their nationality, cannot compare with other nations what they are standing for as we simply have no true identity for ourselves.

Hence, national pride is something you cannot relate to Australia!

The first place to try to become a nation is to try to face reality we are and remain under the British Crown and the Constitution does not allow for this to be changed!
They might pretend otherwise but fool those who go along with that nonsense to pretend some independence where none exist!

Doom,

You don’t have the slightest idea what I know or don’t know. You are too full of yourself to be able to form an opinion of anyone, particularly someone on the internet.

Hopefully you will mature and get over the need attack other people’s opinions to cover your own shortcomings.

In the meantime, go away waste and someone else’s time.

Leigh,
your ill-informed and ignorant posts provide all the information one needs to assess what you dont know...as to what you do know hopefully you will endeavour to look beyond your preconceived,narrow and parochial attitudes to the point where you can offer opinions based on actual knowledge rather than speculation and cultural prejudice.
As for my challenging your opinions,thats what this forum is for and if your opinions can't withstand scrutiny then perhaps its your own shortcomings that need addressing.
Maybe you can enlist the aid of your supposedly superior maturity to help you work through them?

Leigh still resorting to flaming lies.

Leigh dishonestly says:

“You called me a liar before the banned substances comment, so where is the proof that I’m a liar?”

Leigh your semantic deception isn’t sensible. Rancitas’ was clearly referring to your July 25 post .

@http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4716#49439

There you said: “Noticed that poster and Rancitas are still on illegal substances,”… “
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 25 July 2006 4:52:28 PM

Now you know as well as I, that Rancitas was talking about the original July 25 lie. That was dishonest, Leigh.

Rancitas responded to Leigh’s malicious lie a day later on July 26.

Excerpt and the dates follow.

“So here is further proof of your lying. You, Leigh, are proving beyond doubt that you are a dishonest poster. You have destroyed our own credibility. Keep it up..
….”
Posted by rancitas, Wednesday, 26 July 2006 2:42:38 PM

Posted after your post which proved you a malicious liar.

Granted Leigh, you’ve tried to prove the information wrong; but again you resort to dishonestly claiming I called you a liar “before the banned substances comment”, knowing full well that I would be referring to July 25. More proof that you are a scheming liar? You’ve discredited yourself again., Leigh.

Leigh posted the “banned substances” follow up comment on July 28 to, clearly to flame.

After another hysterical rant, Leigh said: “… The old ‘banned substances ‘ seem to be doing the talking.”“ Given Rancitas’ concerns, Leigh is proving beyond doubt his childish nastiness .

Leigh also reinforces his hypocrisy.

In my response, July 26, Rancitas also pointed out Leigh’s hypocrisy because in that thread Leigh harps on about how Leigh “won’t use derogatory names” and attacks another poster for name calling while making the malicious claim that two posters are “still on illegal substances” .

You say on the matter of “slaggng” that you are not hypocritical. Yes you are. Apart from the hypocrisy of your shameful behaviour towards other posters, you now admit to slagging off to “show you (Rancitas) and your odd bod mates that I can give as well as take."

Leigh, you want to show where Rancitas has personally insulted you before your “illegal substance” slag.

Leigh’s “illegal substances” slag was in response to Rancitas’ post that contained these words from a old ME agreement..

“It would be better for all, if rulers became leaders and worked “‘to foster mutual understanding and tolerance and shall accordingly abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda, against each other.’”

How do you justify jumping from a serious matter like M.E .conflict to lying about other posters?

Dictionary says a lie is “an intentional untruth” , “a falsehood“ , “words intended to convey a false impression”.

Truth relies on evidence. Let’s examine Leigh’s “truth” when offering an opinion. Two possibilities here. First you have no evidence (other than your petty and miserable prejudiced opinions). This is because you don’t know and can’t possibly know the posters private business (unless you’ve breached OLO’s privacy rules). Second, if you did know in person the poster Rancitas, you’d soon find out, among other things, how absurd your lies are. Moreover, the word “still” in your supposed statement of fact suggests that you are referring to a known established historical fact. This confirms even more your lying heart. This malicious character assassination was in response to Rancitas’ earlier post.

The maliciousness is self-evident. It is contained in the very act of your deception and character assassination.

Leigh asks: “How do you work out that a malicious lie can be defined as ‘intent to wound’?”
Malice or "militia praecogitata" is “desire to inflict injury”. There is no way you can argue your lies are helpful. You’re just a nasty liar.

Leigh you lied to get your rocks off and Rancitas pulled you up. You are a proven liar Leigh.

One more thing, I‘ve known users who have more ethical and moral sense than you Leigh - going on your conduct on this site.

Rancid,

Gee whiz. You certainly went to a lot of trouble to repeat yourself. You are still referring to yourself in the third person, too. I take it that English is not your first language.

I'll tell you what. As you are clearly a person who is easily upset by others doing to you what you do to them, I'll will never say anything about you or to you again. There is no pleasure in jousting with a person like you.

But, please. Feel free to carry on your abusive nonsense against me. I really enjoy a good laugh. I'm not keen on your little verses, though. I would much prefer the usual name calling; but try to be a little inventive. You must be able to come up something better than you have done. It shouldn't be hard with such an evil sod like me.

Sorry that you have been upset. I must admit that, having a pretty thick skin myself, I don't always appreciate that others often have rather tender feelings, particularly those who simply can't bring themselves to accept that not everyone goes along with their ideas.

All the best, and keep those posts coming.

This article does raise a social issue of patriotism and love for our country. I agree with this, but I also believe our patriotism is not quite high because of the multicultural population we have that feels loyal to their own country. Multicultural, means people are coming from around the world to be in our country, so it is not just us that are traveling. In my own opinion, whether you call it bias or not, this is the greatest country in the world and although we may have ethnic splits and even the old tradition of the Aboriginal dispossession, but we are people in general is far better than compared with other countries. We have a culture, in terms of sporting and we are also respected in terms of our laid back nature. Australia has patriotism, history and a great deal of culture

• Narcissist ..."Good heavens. I really hope that Australia becomes nothing like America in it's flag waving patriotism. Australian Patrotism is subtle, and its history is there, but unlike America, not in your face. Australia does, have great outpourings on patriotism - ANZAC day and Australia day immediately come to mind. Stories of ANZAC are worth telling and listening to ... what becoming more popular as the tourism to Gallipoli, which has never been bigger"... No wonder as one of the bloodiest in elders-of-zion instigated calamities became superimposed down-under with the sacrosanct-pride. Nationally revered ever-since by the blind-leading-blind dill-flock of the gullible-suckers ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4737#50347