OK perseus, if 4 million Australians were displaced due to an invading army would those Australian's sit quietly by and let the invaders do what they want.

There is a plaque in the Holocaust Museum that says something like this "we in Australia don't have a racial problem and don't intend to import one".

With those ghastly words uttered in 1938 in Evian, France the fate of the Jewish refugees were sealed - 21 other countries said the same and 6 million died.

All parts of Europe and Russia had been committing pogroms against the Jews for centuries.

Why then do we blame the Palestinians for wanting their lives and their country back? Why is it legitimate for the Israeli's to do to innocent Palestinians what we did to them?

Come on, now this absurd notion that penetrates the west against all things muslim and arab is madness. They are humans too.

Fancy trying to help your own children to survive in 50 degree heat without water, electricity or decent food, with sonic booms flying over day and night, bombing raids and so on. Why on earth should 1.3 million innocent people, mostly women and children have to suffer in this way for one Israeli soldier that they had nothing to do with?

Marilyn Shepherd, re Al-Masri, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Israel refused him passage. Eventually Israel allowed him to return.

MS: "How many critics of the Palestinians..."

One ought not adopt such simplistic labels. One should feel free to criticize or praise the policies of any government, be it Palestinian, Israeli, Australian, or Mongolian. Of course, criticism should be be reasonable and balanced.

Yes, I have met and spoken with many Palestinians...

MS: "What if Sydney was annexed by Indonesia..."

Jerusalem is Israel's capital, and its population and character were more Jewish than Muslim even before the rise of Zionism. While from the Palestinian perspective Israel's sovereignty in Jerusalem may seem akin to "Indonesia annexing Sydney", from the Israeli perspective, we are just "Indonesia keeping Jakarta".

MS: "Every person on the occupied territories is a thief..."

Most people in the occupied territories are Palestinians, and most were born in Israel/Palestine. A small minority is Israeli, and most of them are also native to this land. Still smaller is the population of Palestinians and Jews who were born abroad and who have since made their homes here. All are thieves? Most just wish to live their lives in their claimed homeland. Also, most of the Arabs and Jews in the occupied territories are children. Surely you don't blame them for the bad decisions, irresponsible policies, etc., of their parents.

MS: "It is easy to blame the muslims..."

The Arab-Jewish conflict over Israel/Palestine started before the rise of Nazism, and would have happened even if the Nazis had never come to power. While WWII and the Holocaust had a profound influence on events here in Israel/Palestine, the conflicts are largely independent and I see no one blaming the Palestinians as you claim. Finally, the failure of the west to save Jews during the Holocaust is history, while the Palestinian-Israeli conflict requires a solution now.

MS: "but the problem is when we white, so-called christians look in the mirror the nazis are us."

I'm not Christian and I don't see a Nazi when I look in the mirror.

Aaannnnnd the self flagellation, self abuse, masochistic Shia style self whipping to draw blood continues... with Marilyn at the head of the torch bearing mob calling for right wing scalps.
Stan1 is her 2ic, Carl the Cadet :)

Sganot -the moderate voice_of_reason, calling out to Marilyn and Stan to ‘wait..lets look at this in perspective’, but he/she is howled down by the mob revved up by Marilyn....and pushed aside into the mud by big Stan1. Off the mob goes, wild eyed, raging, yelling, fuelling each other with anti ‘us’ sloguns.

Marilyn, with her

“Genocide of the 500 Native American Tribes”

-no argument with that statement except that it does not ‘quite’ go far enough, if you were not spinning propaganda, you would have added

“Many of whom committed genocide against enemy tribes, for territory, women, slaves and freebies.”

but that would not suit your ‘anti USA/Bush at any cost’ program..would it ?

The thought that Bush/Blair/Howard are “no worse than, and probably better than many other major historical forces” is too much to bear..right ?

Stan1 says I’m ‘irrational’ (blessU_Stan), but I fail to see ‘irrational’ in my posts. I DO see, ‘cruel 2b kind’ and ‘radical solutions’ which are unpalatable to some, but irrational ? Nope. don’t see it.

Problem with Marilyn and Stans torch bearing rampage to ‘lynch’ the rest of us, is they see one side , and use it to whack us as (insert list of mean nasty names including ‘bad’ Christian).

Sganot gave some perspective, but I sense you don’t care about that. you shriek about ‘justice’ while manifestly unjust and deceptive in your own propaganda towards those who give you the framework of peace for your own lives.

Stan and Marilyn, referring to the UN for support (when u do) simply demonstrates how you see it as the means of achieving your own narrow political goals.... and why it is irrelevant.

CARL “Religion_the_problem”?

James 4:1 “What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet”

Jerusalem is Israel's capital ? Actually this city was created and built by the indigenous Canaanites. The occupying Israelites, who invaded the city under David's leadership, were in turn kicked out later and never possessed it for very long. In 1949 the Zionist lobby was delighted to be granted half of Palestine by the "generous" United Nations, and they did not object to that UN decision to keep Jerusalem under international/UN control, given the claims to this city made by all three monotheistic religions. Now Israel wants it all. Well the Crusaders also invaded and occupied this city and claimed it as their own. They lasted a few hundred years. I doubt if modern Israel will last even that long. Palestinians with their home made rockets may seem like a joke now but blind Freddy can see that the Arab/Muslim world is not going to be a pushover for much longer.

kang: The Arab (and broader Muslim) world isn't going to do squat except go back to squabbling amongst itself once the oil runs out. If it ever does really get too big for its boots, it will promptly be put back in its place. I don't think that will necessarily happen from the west (though who knows if push really comes to shove), but I can conceive of a day when the west won't be number one, and I could also conceive of a day when China wouldn't pussyfoot around. Likewise, India is not exactly enamoured with the Islamic world.

The reason I doubt this whole notion of a clash of civilisations between the west and the Arab/Muslim world is that you can't have a clash of civilisations if there's only one civilisation involved.

The Muslim world has had great civilisations in the past, greater than the west at the time, but for the past half a millenium they've produced diddly. Culturally, intellectually, scientifically, they're where Europe was prior to the Renaissance -- hamstrung by a medieval religion -- let alone the Reformation, Age of Enlightenment, etc. Until Islam goes through such phases and ultimately embraces modernity (which, like with Christianity, will ultimately spell the end of the religion), it will remain insignificant. Once the oil runs out (I've read that without oil, the entire Middle East has a GDP less than the turnover of Nokia) and we all move on to something else, it will attain its rightful status in human affairs: on a par with Vanuatu or Surinam.

sganot: Where do I start? 1) So long as we don't have death camps and gas chambers, then the ethnic cleansing of 48 and the ever more brutal occupation of the Palestinians since 67, is a mere bagatelle? Not! 2) Israel's Palestinian citizens may have the vote but 93% of Israel is reserved in law for the cultivation, development and settlement of Jews alone, making it an apartheid state and its Palestinian citizens 2nd class citz. 25% of them have property in Israel but cannot by law access it. 4-5 mill. Palestinian refugees, denied return to their homes & lands in Israel, remain stateless & disenfranchised while those in the ever-shrinking territories are squeezed between land-grabbing settlers and a trigger-happy army. 3) Palestinians & Israelis are locked in national struggle, not "because they claim the same homeland" but because Israel dispossessed the majority of Palestinians in 48 and continues in kind today. Whether it's called genocide or politicide - it's wrong. 4) Jerusalem is not recognised as Israel's capital by the rest of the world. It was supposed to be under UN administration after 47 but was overrun by Zionist forces. East Jerusalem was illegally occupied in 67 and remains under Israeli occupation today. 4) WB settlers "native to this land"? As Judge Judy said: Don't pee on our legs and tell us it's raining.