Mr Jelata,

There is no compulsion in religion. (Q2:256)

To you your religion and for me my religion. (Q. 109:6)

If this is true why do people who convert to Christianity (or become atheist) from Islam are persecuted and prosecuted for the crime of changing religion?

Apostasy is a very serious crime in most Islamic countries. A lot of refugees coming to our shores are escaping such persecution and death threats. A lot convert to Christianity secretly, some even change identity so their relatives and friends won’t find them (and kill them).

Furthermore the ayah (verses) you naively quoted have been abrogated, annulled, made redundant, cancelled by Allah, who according to the Qur’an CAN and DOES change his mind.

I hope you see my problem. If Allah is admitting that he made mistakes. It shows that what he gave before was not perfect. It could be improved or changed.

Q9:5 replaces the above verses“…then kill the mushrikin (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they [pay a tax and live in submission to you] then leave their way free. Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

The bible says:
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Numbers 23:19

On islamic tolerance of non-muslems; (Q. 2:193)... Fight them until there is no more fitnah (belief in other gods) and all worship is for Allah (alone).

So my humble conclusion is that Allah of the Qur’an CANNOT be the same as the God of the bible. For why would Allah ask Muslems to kill believers in God Himself?

_____________

(Q 4:82) Do they not consider the Qur’an ? Had it been from other than God, they would surely have found therein discrepancies

Unfortunately there are too many discrepancies and contradictions to make it a divine or holy book. Therefore the Qur’an cannot be a confirmation of but a conflict to the central message of the bible.

dee, I think muslims have many more reasons to be afraid of western culture than yours to be so phobic about muslims.

Not to offend, it was 'Christendom' who were in general attacking and massacrying people. Crusaders, Inquisition, American Indians, the aborigines (deep sorry), holocaust, antisemitism, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Slobodan Milosevic, what salvations were these all and now your aggresive leaders and thousands missiles ready to burn this earth several times .

Our 'unchristianiy', in those matters, is almost nothing compared to yours. Thank to barbaric concept of dhimmitude. Thank to ancient multiculturalism of Eastern ppl.

What is your equally figure of Umar Ibn Khattab? Let alone Saladin.

2000 A.D and agressive nature of the people remains the same,
Such was in Quran "They will not cease until you follow their way of life". Yet seems the Quran true because their 'enemies' consistently fulfilling the prophecy.

So please stop your violent opinion and embrace multiculturalism, let's make nobody could in literal way understand such scriptures. Allah is in mood in "erasing" such verse. He is all - mercyful.

You could keep the same prophecy though, and you fulfill it your self. Indeed most muslims are pacifist yet ready with any possible meaning of Jihad.

Reason, I'm like you who believe imposing concept of peace into religions is more likely to be successful than erasing the religions. I think human is inclinedly going to such tendency. Yes fanatics exist as neo-old but there are peace-oriented people that are completely new phenomenon. I dont know exactly the way but I'm optimistic.

Mr Coach, I'd told you I'm not a scholar. I'm also a bit acquianted by Taoism/Budism so I love to seeing and experiencing rather than details of Quran. I do not necessarily follow fatwas, I'd rather listening it myself.

There are two words writen in the grave of Admiral of Seven Seas Zenghe, who had sailed peacefully with giant armada ever along Asian shores to the Holy Land of Mecca.

The words are : Allahu Akbar. God is Great.
Doesnt (or at least didn't) Islam is fairly great ha ha.

Irf – please reread my June 21st posts:

<I have never claimed that all Muslims are terrorists>

Please point to a post of mine anywhere stating that ‘all Muslims are terrorists’? You cannot. Please point to a post accusing all Muslims, journalists etc. of being in a giant conspiracy. You cannot. There is no onus on me to 'prove' something that does not exist.

There *is* a conspiracy by some Islamic ‘leaders’ to conquer the world for Islam by immigration and outbreeding. Read their own words. Not all Muslims agree with it, just as not all Germans believed in Nazism. Their disapproval did nothing to stop Hitler. In the same way, moderate Muslims have no chance of stopping extremists. If moderates had any voice, hate literature would not be on sale in Islamic bookshops, would it? Personal feelings for individual Muslims have absolutely no bearing on the issue.

I wrote:

< .. no positives come to my mind regarding Islam so perhaps you can provide some. Not examples of Muslims who have good jobs or who are good people but positives about Islam per se.>
>

You have not responded to this request. So please - tell us the positives of Islam.

In a nutshell:

I do not hate Muslims.

I do not hate people because they are Muslims.

I do not support continued Islamic immigration because it is a burden rather than an asset. Hostility to the host country and support of terrorism among Muslims in the West (especially Britain) are more than alarming (see the Pew Research Center report, among others).

The acceptance of Muslim immigrants/refugees brings too much risk of importing terrorist supporters – see Canada, France, the UK, the US, Holland, Denmark and right here in Australia.

Muslims bring too many unacceptable customs – virulent anti-Semitism, honour killings, female circumcision, forced marriages, cousin marriage, sharia law. Can you give one reason why Australia should accept such a burden?

Many Muslims are good people but this will never outweigh the fact that Islamic immigration has proven to be a disaster for the West.

dee writes ...

"In a nutshell:

I do not hate Muslims.

I do not hate people because they are Muslims."

Really? Your posts on this forum express hatred and venom of Muslims. You don't qualify your prejudice by talking of "extreme" Muslims or "radical" Muslims or even "some" Muslims. You refer to ALL Muslims.

You are attributing to Muslims almost exactly what Hitler and his goons attributed to Jews. And the best evidence you can provide is anecdotes and quotes without any context.

Your hatred of all Muslims enables you to rant and rave without even sticking to the topic. Virtually every forum having anything remotely to do with Muslims and Islam contains your venom which is inevitably directed at all Muslims.

The fact that you cannot even find a single good thing to say about the faith of almost one quarter of the world's population makes you a very sad and negative individual indeed.

Go to google. Type in the name "Rumi". Then discover a side of Islamic faith and culture you may not have heard of before.

Irf – yet another accusation of hating *all* Muslims when I have stipulated time after time that this is not the case. If you wish to believe that I snarl at Muslims every day and dream about nuking Mecca, go right ahead.

<You refer to ALL Muslims>

I ask you once again to supply evidence that I refer to ‘all Muslims’.

< the best evidence you can provide is anecdotes and quotes without any context.>

Evidence of what? If you refer to the report from the Star, here is the link: http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/6/27/nation/14660015&sec=nation

If you wish to see ‘evidence’ of the anti-social behaviour of many Muslims in western countries, pick up a newspaper. The trials of alleged home-grown terrorists in almost every western country are not anecdotes or quotes. Neither are the 22 driveby shootings carried out this year by Lebenese Muslims in Sydney. Have you ever asked yourself why Muslims are the only group of immigrants ever to behave in this fashion in Australia?

The quotes I supply are usually from the Koran or from prominent Muslims. They are easily verified.

Far from ‘ranting and raving’, I have explained clearly and rationally why I do not support any further acceptance of Muslim refugees and migrants.

< .. you cannot even find a single good thing to say [about Islam] makes you a very sad and negative individual indeed>

Have you considered that my being unable to find anything positive about Islam says a lot about Islam? I believe this is the third time I have asked you to list the positives you refer to, but you prefer to respond with personal insults and accusations of ‘hating all Muslims’. The 'victimisation of Muslims' line is growing old. So:

What are the positives of Islam?

How does Muslim immigration benefit Australia?

Why is anti-Australian, anti-Western hate literature on sale in Islamic bookshops?

Why should Australians feel any trust for people who tolerate the sale of hate literature in their community?

Re Rumi: How many Muslims in Australia follow Sufism? I cannot see its influence on the behaviour of Muslims worldwide.

dee, your rants makes generalised allegations against Muslims in Australia and across the world. I think you seriously need to get out more often and get to know more Muslims.

I tell you what. If you live in Sydney, Canberra or Melbourne, I am happy to meet you and take you on a tour of mosques and other institutions. I'll introduce you to ordinary Aussie Muslims. You can raise these issues with them yourself.

Are you prepared to do this, dee? This is my invitation to you. Go to my blog, grab my e-mail and get back to me. This invitation is also open to coach, Boaz-David and any other person with similar issues with Muslims.