Arjay (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4452#41533), when you write "Aussies aren't stupid ...", what you seem to be saying is that you hope that most Australians will be prove to be as callous and mean-spirited as you appear to be.

You hope that and once again, at the 2007 elections, they will turn their backs on those who have been treated so despicably by this Government - the middle aged professionals, thrown on the scrap heap and denied retraining as the Government imports 140,000 per year to take their places, the young people in Ballarat denied apprenticeships because this Government has made it so easy for companies like MaxiTrans to import cheaper skilled labour from China (see http://www.abc.net.au/southwestvic/stories/s1635000.htm), a friend of mine recently forced to move from Newcastle to Brisbane because government cutbacks had forced the University to retrench 20% of its staff, the low skilled workers, as described in Wynhausen's "Dirt Cheap", who will have their already abysmal working conditions eroded even further because of this Government's 'Work Choices' 'reforms', the disabled who will now be forced to go out to look for work in competition with the existing unemployed, Australians no longer receiving dental care because of the axing of the federal dental care program, etc, etc, etc.

You aim to trump these, and many other objections, held by decent, compassionate and forward-looking Australians, to the record of this Government with the claim that "most Australians are doing a lot better". However the statistical basis of this is questionable. Inflation figures haven't, for years, included housing cost increases as just one of many omitted factors which increase the cost of living, so Howard's claim that real wages have increased by 14% since he came to power is almost certainly wrong for average wage-earners, and even more so for the lowest paid. A more objective measure of our quality of life would show that it has gone backwards. I have dealt with this at : http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3737#12173

To the extent that some Australians do enjoy increased prosperity, it is due to the export of greenhouse-inducing non-renewable minerals at the expense of future generations.

When logic is so obvious,as is contained in the views put forward by Shorbe,and which i applaud there really is no case for argument. Some commentators, freak at the thought of the new IR laws eventually undermining state govts, i wish. Does anyone question the practical need for this unecessary beurocracy? We have state Premiers, ministers,mirroring those of Westminster,and in some cases receiving more salary,perks than the latter,performing tasks that could be undertaken by Aldermen or Councillors representing their own local electorats and forming commitees to handle the state infrastructure maintenance, by-laws etc; Issues like health, major projects that have national effect should be left to the National (or Federal govt).

True to form sly, attack the person and never debate the questions raised.

I am well aware of the environmental problems this country has.
I am also well aware that the land managers have to pay several times world market prices for the necessary “costs” associated with investing back in the” land care area”

It appears you are not, as all you want to do is increase costs to business by regulation, making it even more difficult for land managers to invest in” land care”

As an importer, I am well aware where the costs are, and they start the moment goods reach the ports of Australia.
In fact, my experience is that for a product below $100 retail in Australia, the factory door price is often below 5% of the retail price.
Thats to grease your palm to try and stop your pathetic whinging.
I am not whinging, but stating facts “sly”.
Prove my facts wrong instead of attacking ME.

Just for the record, that’s called “debating” something you don’t seem to be aware of.

Well do not put me in the we want to share in the profits box.
And I did in fact both own a small busness[paid well over award].
And know a boss must make money on his investment, however debate the issue workchoices is evil, it clearly controls wages while profits run free.
Just as clearly todays news had the begining of the end for workchoices.
Bill Shorten will lead Labor soon, that alone will insure workchoices is to die.
Those in the ALP who wish to delay Kims exite need to understand they gamble, with working Australias future, its the last race at Randwick and you must not place our future on the clerk of the couse
Unions are in no way different fron AIG and 20 other bosses groups.

Belly and Sly,

I think you misunderstand me. I am definitely not a Howard/Liberal supporter.

What I am saying is that the unions and the Labor party are unable to defend workers interests because their bread is buttered on the other side, and they know it. All the unions and the Labor Party care about is defending their own position within the capitalist system, and in doing so they foster the illusion among workers that the system can be reformed or softened or improved.

Why are workers’ conditions all over the world going backwards while CEO’s paypackets, stock options, golden handshakes etc. skyhigh? Because it is the logic of the capitalist system – lower costs of production, higher profits. The CEO’s that can engineer staff cuts, wage cuts and reduced conditions are paid handsomely for it.

The unions and Labor work hand in hand with them. I note Belly that you failed to respond to my comments about the Labor Party and the unions dismantling of the labour regulations under the “Accord” which has led workers directly to the position they are in today. What is your position on this?

You make the comment that the Unions knew that strike action would feed Howard’s anti union fire and so didn’t call strikes. What other weapon do workers have but withholding their labour? – and you shut down their only weapon because you were scared of Howard.

Your comments about Bill Shorten being the saviour of the Labor Party, and being the sole hope of turning back Work Choices are either very naïve, or deliberately disingenuous. Do you really think Bill Shorten could single handedly save the talentless Labour Party? Do you really think the Labor Party will repeal Work Choices? (don’t forget they started workplace deregulation).

The answer to our problems is not to look to the Labor Party, but beyond them. Workers need to recognize that the unions and Labor are part of the system that exploits them. Workers need to organize themselves independently of their exploiters. Otherwise it will be more of the same.

Bob Hawks acord was at a time when he was the most highly rated prime minist in Australia.
While workers lost it proved workers understood unions had a part to play with Labor in Australias well being.
Hawk and Keiting remain Labor heros, Bill Shorten is not a single answer to Labors woes.
However reality is unionists/workers are not a brand name product of the ALP, they do not all vote Labor.
The new conservtives our party manufactored in the last three elections must be won back, no class unitey will bring them home.
Bill Shorten can, do you think Kim can? can it be that reasonable people, understanding surely Labors lost and needed votes belong to Howard think Gillard could.
Reality is no hidden majority lays beneath the rug waiting for a more responsive to workers need policys awaits us.
Elections have to be won by Labor, Bill Shorten within weeks of takeing the leadership would have some oposed to him today trying to forget they ever thought like that.
Watch the British Labor party decay and decline after they push Blair out.