Tao and dagget, would you agree that unions are needed especially
in relation to big bussiness to maintain any type of balance?
And lets remember unions are the workers not the officials.

Tao any room for truth? Latham earnt the harmfull quotes ,surely you understand? only after his loss?
After he did not talk even to his close frends in the party or answer the phone to them?
As a true Labor /union supporter, one who never insults or turns on them I ask that you explain to me after Lathams train wreck election can it be you realy think Australia may have one day elected him?
He was rejected forever.
Do not please say you think voters are only right when they vote as you want!
Get back to the thread not the fanasy land of lost in space Wil Robinson never to be politics.
Unions sent to control workers?!
Workers united will never be defeated.

I'm actually not convinced that big business' interests and the interests of the average person don't converge nicely. Okay, maybe they've been brainwashed, which is a definite possibility (if not certainty), but the average person, I think, really doesn't want anything more than a big new TV to watch the latest episode of Big Puttana 06 or the footy.

I used to be under the mistaken belief that once people got over the task of putting food on the table (which is the case for the majority of people in the west), they would then start to use their free time and wealth to educate or improve themselves, or to experience or contribute to the arts. We have two very non-commercial television stations in this country, and aside from the World Cup, who actually watches them? We have libraries full of books, yet who reads them? We have the internet, yet who actually uses it for anything other than porn or message board flaming? Each year, hundreds, if not thousands, of small, quirky movies come out at arthouse cinemas in this country, yet who goes to watch them? I tend to think if the system is screwed then maybe it's just a reflection on people, or maybe it's not and people genuinely are happy with it.

I think some people here are projecting their own interests in politics and the world around them onto the average person. People really don't care. More to the point, they don't want to care.

Shorbe,

In answer to your questions – I do, I do, I do, I do.

I agree that there appears to be a very low level of consciousness at present, however look at the turnout all over the world at the demonstrations prior to the Iraq war – millions. And more recently the marches against Workchoices, the demonstrations in Paris, the demonstrations against immigration laws in the US, against the war, there are demonstrations in Germany all the time – which is a reason for Schroder unconstitutionally engineering early elections to enable more cuts to social conditions, recently in the UK. Just because our media doesn’t show us doesn’t mean its not happening. And just because it appears to be about separate issues, it is all really about the same thing - and all of that anger doesn't just go away.

Capitalism requires for its existence a docile, unthinking, compliant population and, for the most part, that is what it produces. There is really little difference between the escapism of popular culture than the escapism you hope to engage in. One day the real world is likely to crash in on them and they will have to think about it. Some already do.

Perhaps you project your own not caring onto others.

shorbe do not fall into the wrong view that only you or I or anyone have views that are right.
Its a trap that leads away from truth, my sponsorship of and dreams for a better more responsive ALP are not for personal interest, I want better goverment as an outcome.
But some who want things that can never muster voters in double figures to follow them ,live in worlds that will never exist.Yet again we drift from the thread but unions for workers are in no way different than the many unions for bosses, execpt one is free to act in the interests of its members and one is not.
Freedom is a wonderfull thing we are in Australia free to form lines shoulder to shoulder on election day and each vote differently but at the end of the count not want to harm the winning person.
Yet for how long? Workchoices is unfair! its about distruction not reform.
I without question say reform was needed, but this is a shamefull thing John Howard has bought to Australia, if we needed to control wages but not prices to keep our country tradeing the bottom will one day fall out of world trade.
As the rich get richer and the poor get poorer who buys the goods?
In time this act will strengthen unions by divideing Australia.

tao: I don't know that the demonstrations necessarily change anything. I lived in London during the lead up to the Iraq War and there was certainly a real feeling that marching would achieve something. I went on that march that had about a million people, but ultimately, it didn't do anything. At the time, the British people had real alternatives to Blair, yet they chose, and continue to choose, to do nothing about the situation. The American government has been blatantly ignoring the Constitution for a very long time now, yet people, in the main, aren't about to have a revolution there either. Ultimately, most people aren't driven by idealism in their politics or we'd see something different in this country too.

Having said that, I don't think it's bad at all that we in certain parts of the English speaking world aren't revolutionary minded, especially in this country. As bad as you make things out to be, we haven't had the periodic blood-letting in this country (or Canada, New Zealand or even Britain to a large extent) that seems to be de rigueur for most other parts of the world. Australia has never produced the garden variety nutter native to the rest of the world (and England hasn't produced anyone really crazy since Cromwell), and I think a large part of that is because people are pretty complacent and have a fairly laid back attitude towards politics. The last thing we need is someone waving a coloured flag in this country for some "cause".

Belly: I'm not entirely sure what you were getting at in the beginning of your last response. I don't want to misinterpret you. Please qualify.