The Forum > Article Comments > Demystifying Jewish support for Israel > Comments
Demystifying Jewish support for Israel : Comments
By Philip Mendes, published 10/5/2006Just don't expect many Jews to protest against Israeli settlements any time soon.
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Posted by Horus, Tuesday, 23 May 2006 6:48:26 AM
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Horus, Nice little sidestep. Yesterday it was Armenians, Cypriots and Kurds. Today it's Egyptians, Saudis and Sudanese. Tomorrow...who knows? Your little diversionary tactic is based on the false premise that Palestinians=Egyptians=Saudis=Sudanese etc. In other words, they're all just generic AAARABS. A little like assuming that French=Croations=Russians. So let's get back to Israel/Palestine and stop beating around the bush. My question was: tell me how your concern for the maintenance of the "Jewish character" of Israel differs from the concern of, say a 30's-40's German Nazi for the maintenance of the Aryan character of Germany. Your other red herrings: that nonsense about Iranian Jews and Christians was a hoax and you know it. Nor is anyone suggesting that racism is endemic to Israel. No, the situation in Israel is far worse than mere racism. The difference between Israel and other countries (excepting thankfully defunct apartheid SA) is that in Israel racism is regulated in law through acts of parliament and enforced through the legal system (the most obvious example being Israel's Law of Return whereby assorted Horus's, comfortably seated in front of their computers in Melbourne or New York, can become Israeli citizens at the drop of a hat, while millions of Palestinians and their descendents, booted out in 1948, are denied entry). Israel is thus an apartheid state based on the fundamental distinction in law between Jew and non-Jew. And thankyou for the insight into your notion of binationalism: "the coerced marriage of Palestinians and Jews" [you do have that annoying Zionist habit of never distinguishing between Israelis on the one hand, and Jews on the other, don't you?]. The bottom line is this: if in the 20th-21st centuries settlers insist on moving into the lands of others AND wish to get away with it, they better be prepared to live with, as opposed to without, the original inhabitants of those lands. We left the imperial age of Herzl and Weizmann behind a long time ago. When is the penny going to drop? Now please answer my question.
Posted by Strewth, Tuesday, 23 May 2006 12:37:39 PM
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Part 1)
Zionism and Arab Nationalism(for want of better word) are kindred spirits-with similar attributes: -Zionism was a prime factor in the establishment of the state of Israel & the dispossession of the Palestinians (though not the only factor). -Arab nationalism on its part was a prime factor in the dispossession & or suppression of the Kurds, Turkomam.Assyrians & Africans. The point of mentioning the Kurds etc was to illustrate to you that Arabs were & are expanding at the expense of their neighbors-in much the same ways as the Israelis/Zionists had 2) It is valid to talk in terms of Arabs as a 'generic' unit: Your comments about ' generic AAArabs' shows your IGNORANCE- and reeks of EUROCENTRIC PREJUDICES Not all cultures put their national identity before their racial, religious or linguistic identity. Semites (which for your benefit includes Arabs & Jews) often identify strongly with their linguist group. from Halim Barakat ‘ the Arab World: Society Culture & State’ “It has often been stated that the great majority of Arabs speak Arabic as their mother tongue and thus feel that they belong to the same nation regardless of race, religion, tribe, or region. This explains the tendency to dismiss the existing states as artificial and to call for political unity coinciding with linguistic identity. The prevailing view is that only a small minority of the citizens of Arab countries do not speak Arabic as their mother tongue and lack a sense of being Arab; this minority category includes the Kurds”-( Yikes! –if we substituted Jew for Arab you would brand it Zionism ) Posted by Horus, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 6:51:23 AM
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Part B:
3) The attributes you highlight as evidence of institutionalized racism are widespread & not exclusive to Israeli society. As for your great 'distinction' furphy “Israel’s...apartheid {is} in law" You really need to read more widely. -Malaysian law "enshrines" special rights for the Bumiputras Malays over and above other Malays ( Shorbe (the wise one ) pointed this out to you, but you still have not taken it on board!) -The Australian Aborigines have special rights enshrined in law -And even the English Monarch, by law, must be Church of England . When will you start to rail against those arrangements? 4. And your bottom line is crap: You attempt to portray Israel’s crimes as of the 20th & 21st century while the ones I mentioned were too old to concern you. Obviously you have some ‘statue of limitation’ on your humanitarian concerns/empathy. but you have a much greater limitation in terms of knowledge of the world: -Iraqi Arabs stealing of land from the Kurds, Turkoman & Assyrians goes on to this day. -The dispossession of Sudanese Africans goes on to this day - The Copts are brutalized even as you’re read this [But you don't give a dam do you ? because you can't make political capital out of the Kurds,Sudanese Copts ] Posted by Horus, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 6:54:48 AM
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Horus, you can huff & puff all you like, just answer the question: Jewish/Aryan character of the state - wherein lies the difference? I do believe, however, we've made some progress here given your recognition that Israel is a dinky-di case of institutionalised racism amounting to apartheid. But what you wrongly go on to suggest is that that's OK because so too is Malaysia, Australia and England. I was not aware, for example, that these countries had reserved in law 93% of their land exclusively for cultivation, development and settlement by one, privileged group of citizens, as pertains in pre-67 Israel. You're a mine of (dis)information. Now for your red herrings: 1) Zionism and Arab Nationalism are both ideological constructs to be sure. However, the latter, whatever its many failings in the hands of a Saddam, has not brought about a situation whereby Kurds, Turkmen etc are living in their millions in refugee camps beyond the borders of their homelands; 2) Although the Palestinians are tied to other Arabs by language and cultural ties, to blithely gloss over the differences between them to the point where you're happy to ship Palestinians off to Arab countries - your real agenda - would be as outrageous as shipping off Chinese Singaporeans to China or Australians to the US; 3)As for 'Arab unity', virtually a dead issue since Nasser, this is on a par with European unity. Neither involve the overriding of national identities or sovereignty.
Posted by Strewth, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 8:25:10 AM
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Is it any wonder Israel gains support from democratic societies when totalitarian States try to enforce laws such as this.
Badging Infidels in Iran American Thinker, Andrew G. Bostom, May 20th, 2006 “The Iranian Majlis or Parliament has reportedly passed (now disputed) a law requiring that, “Jews would have to sew a yellow strip of cloth on the front of their clothes, while Christians would wear red badges and Zoroastrians would be forced to wear blue cloth.” An outraged Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Weisenthal Institute immediately responded to the provisions for Jews: “This is reminiscent of the Holocaust…Iran is moving closer and closer to the ideology of the Nazis.” Such a comparison sprang to the minds of many. But Rabbi Hier’s statement and this general view ignore the immediate context—most glaringly, the simultaneous dress badge requirements for Christians and Zoroastrians living in Iran—and more importantly, the sad historical legacy of Shi’ite religious persecution of all non-Muslims which dates back to the founding of the Shi’ite theocracy in (then) Persia, under Shah Ismail at the very outset of the 16th century….” At: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5513 Posted by Philo, Thursday, 25 May 2006 12:21:50 PM
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I put it to you that there is not a lot of difference between Zionism and Arab nationalism.
The Israelis (on the most part) want a Jewish Israel &
The Arabs (on the most part) want Muslim, Arab states.
-Iraq has long practiced a policy of moving Arabs into Kurd, Turkoman & Assyrian lands and dis possessing their original inhabitants
-Take a look at Sudan. The Arabs are doing their utmost to make it an Arabs only state.
-Take a look at Egypt. Large numbers of Arab settlers moved into Egypt before & during the Abbasid Caliphate –and the original inhabitants the Copts are now second class citizens.
-What do you suppose Saudi Arabia’s response would be if we suggested that we resettle thousands of Christian refugees there?
And who is it you are comparing to Nazi Germany?
I suggest you take a long look at one of the PRs main supporters IRAN.
"Christians & Jews to wear labels"
Now where have I heard that before?
(Oh, apart from Afghanistan that is -another kindred spirit of the PRs)
Think outside the (ideological) box (you have your head in).
Racism is not some exotic affliction endemic to Israel.
And if by "Bination" you mean the coerced marriage of Palestinians & Israelis
(If it the joints don't fit, we'll force it together with a hammer solution)
I'm afraid I must differ with you on that issue too.
Let each have its own state -a solution we are already part of the way to.