Rogindon, you blew your credibility when you dismissed fundamental human rights, to which UN Conventions both Australia and Indonesia are signatories, as "some strange out-dated human rights discourse".

And anyone who knows me would consider "latte leftie" as one of the least applicable terms that could be applied to me. This particular grumpy, middle aged, self made right wing ideologue has somehow managed to retain a core belief in the primacy of the inherent dignity of all people. And that dignity of mankind cannot be maintained when people are forced into associations that are not of their choosing.

And as for this fear of "failed states", it should not be forgotten that it was not all that long ago that such a discription could have been applied to most of the OECD nations. It was part of a journey to a better future, they passed through it, they learned, and in so doing derived a greater understanding of the value of good governance. Who are we to deny that road to anyone?

@Narcissist:
Indeed, these "asylum-seekers" themselves admitted they went to Australia as dirty propaganda. The separatists are having their last dying-gasp after they realise transmigrant population has now made-up more than 50% of Papuan population.

@Perseus:
LOL, unfortunately a 51-year-old who talk like a toddler can only be called a "boy". Maybe you shouldn't have done too much mind-numbing activities like drinking beer/grog, smoking pot, and watching AFL.

Actually Indonesia faces NO THREAT from separatism, GAM from Aceh having surrendered while the miniscule Papuan OPM has more influence in Australia than in Papua. 99.9% of Indonesia's 742 ethnic-groups never express any interest in separatism, since "Javanese Empire" only exists in your fantasy. Read rogindon's posts on how Indonesia is more democratic and decentralised nation than Australia.

@Colgadroff:
No worries, as rogindon says, Indonesia is nowhere near "disintegration" as whites are near to being expelled from Australia by Aborigines.

@viking:
LOL, Australian military want to "invade" Indonesia? Your navy and airforce cannot even stop thousands of Indonesian fishing boats from landing in Australian soil and fishing in "Australian" waters at will, yet you said they can "stop travel" between Indonesian islands, the biggest archipelago on earth. What a joke.

Why don't you ask about Indonesian military mettle to the 4000 Dutch soldiers and 1500 British and Indian soldiers killed by Indonesians during war of independence, plus 150 British and Commonwealth soldiers killed by Indonesian soldiers during Konfrontasi?

BTW yes East Timor is a failed state: the poorest country in the world, half of its army just deserted, its police abuse human rights regularly, and its poverty/illiteracy/infant mortality rates the highest in Asia.

Indonesia is much better-off without East Timor (no more subsidies burden), East Timor is much worse-off without Indonesia.

Perseus,

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean to dismiss fundamental human rights without which we would all be living in caves eating roots and freezing our backsides off in some forgotten part of Europe. What I meant was that you're assuming that human rights means people in Sulawesi or NTT or some other part of Indonesia would gain human rights advances by succeding from Indonesia. This is nonsense since they have not expressed this desire.

I lived in Indonesia for nine years so I'm trying to be an honest broker here avoiding the extremes of this chauvinist guy PTBI (no offense, your knowledge of history is excellent and so you do the best posts on this website) and some looney Aussie who learnt about Indosesia from a WeetBix box, or worse still, from Dick Woolcott's mob who would sell us all off before you could mutter the words "Schapelle Corby".

That was a good debate sparked off by my article, thank you to all contributors. As some noted, I sit somewhere in the middle of this argument. I am neither an Indonesia-lobby appeaser nor an anti-Indonesian polemicist. But I do know that this was a time to draw a clear line in the sand and stick to it. We are paying the price for not doing so.

By the way, has anybody noticed ? Many Papuans died a few days ago in suspicious circumstances in a boat that was sunk off Jayapura while attempting to fee to nearby PNG. It allegedly collided with a speedboat , or was struck by a wave- the news stories (in ABC and Fairfax news - see Google) vary. According to an unconnected article in the well-informed Indonesian news magazine Tempo (cited by Crikey), six Indonesian warships are now patrolling off the coast of West Papua in efforts to deter/turn back refugee boats attempting to leave West Papua. Go figure how this boat sank.

Tony Kevin

I see your point Rogindon, but I am trying not to assume anything. My point about human rights is that the West Papuans were never given a full, free and fair, act of free choice. And it seems, the Javanese at independence were in no mood to actually ask all the other provinces of the then Dutch East Indies if they wanted to be part of one entity or not.

And the issue of a Javanese Empire does not go away because the more compliant provinces have their own leadership in place. I understand the biblical King Herrod was a palestinian who ruled a palestinian court but there is absolutely zero room for doubt that 2006 years ago Palestine was part of the Roman Empire.

Rest assured, if the rest of Indonesia was firmly in bed, as it were, with the Javanese then there would be no sign at all of the shrill responses we are currently seeing from Djakarta and our mate PTBI. Leaders of secessionist movements that have no support base very rarely get strangled in mysterious circumstances. There would be no need to do such a thing.

The Indonesian elite know better than most how tenuous the bonds are that tie that country together. The virulence of their response to any mention of secessionism, either internal or external, tells us a great deal about what they really know about the situation.

And the fact that you could spend 9 years in the country without any exposure to secessionist sentiment is no surprise. Most of those 9 years would have had to be prior to democratisation. That is, when it was a police/military state. And there is little doubt that as far as secessionism goes, it still is. For those who are benefiting from the system, any mention of this taboo subject, in any form but the official line, would mean the kiss of death to any career.

Clearly, in some parts of Indonesia, it may even be the literal kiss of death.

Perseus,
I spent two weeks in West Papua in 2000 and, yes, I can tell you for a fact that successionist sentiment was extremely strong. In fact, there was only one native Papuan whom I spoke to who suggested that Papuans should focus on economic development rather than independence. The rest were pro-independence. But Papua is only one province among more than 30. I also spent 4 months in North Sulawesi in 2003. This province is 3 hours flight by commercial jet aircraft from Jakarta and predominantly non-Muslim. When Jakarta passed a Bill on National Education that was seen to favour Muslims, student groups and even some members of the provincial legislature threatened to break away from Indonesia. But this was largely just bluster to stress their opposition to the Bill. I have travelled to every province of Indonesia, mostly post-1998, and the only places where I believe there are serious independence movements are Aceh and West Papua. Remember the Indonesian language is not Javanese and many Javanese cannot even speak Indonesian properly. President Sukarno's mother, and hence President Megawati's (2001-04) grandmother was Balinese and President Habibie (1998-99) was born and raised in South Sulawesi.