Nice attempt to cross the religious bridge Irfan.

As a matter of curiosity is there a Bill Cruse Muslim equivalent for any non-muslim "saint"? Or is your compassion limited to muslims?

For the records Jesus was ans IS more than a good man. I noticed you slipped this at the end of your post.

The real meaning for the washing of feet - which in the time of Jesus more so than now was the lawsest of low servants job - was a demonstration that God incarnate came to serve and to die for humans.

A saint is a disciple of Christ meaning set apart for service. I believe the term saint was not in use then.

All acts of kindness are good - but only Jesus brings salvation to the lost world.

Coach, not everyone accepts that Jesus was God incarnate. Many people, not only Muslims, would agree with Irfan's characterisation of Jesus as a great man. I respect your beliefs and would not try to dissuade you from them, even though I do not share them. Is it possible for you to extend the same courtesy to Irfan and others? If not, why not?

Irfan wants us to acknowledge Christ as a teacher and 'great man', and PK wants us all to just believe what we want without imposing our beliefs on others.
The whole notion of 'Jesus is a good man' is somewhat contradictory.
The point is that Easter is the celebration of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, followed shortly afterwards by his ascension to heaven.
One cannot claim that 'Jesus was a good man' or 'Jesus was a great teacher' because it is not consistent with the teaching of Jesus.
Jesus said he is the Son of God, and that he died to take away the sins of the world.
Either this is true or not - and we believe it or not.
As Josh McDowell wrote in 'More than a Carpenter', Jesus is either 'Lord, Liar, or Lunatic'...
We can believe he is the Son of God and his teaching as recorded in the Bible and call him 'Lord'.
If we don't believe He is the Son of God, then he must be lying about his claim - or deluded into thinking that he was the Son of God.
In either of these cases, he would hardly qualify as a 'great man'.
We can wash feet and be nice to each other (both of those actions are desirable) but the gospel of Jesus Christ is much more than this.
Jenny Stokes
Salt Shakers

The snag we hit is that we have absolutely no idea what Jesus called himself. All the writings from the NT were done at least 70 years after JC's death (however he may have died).

I wonder why people can't be nice to each other without doing it in someone's name ? Why can't people wash other peoples feet all the time, not just at Easter ? If you left god, allah, jehovah out of the whole proceeding I would believe you are really nice, caring people. Doing something like this, whilst mentioning a dieties name, only makes me believe you are trying to notch up brownie points.

Jenny, Freethinker has a point. Jesus did not record his teachings. They were recorded after his death and have been revised by elements of the church over the centuries to suit changing agendas. Other religions feature Jesus but not necessarily that of the modern day Bible. To believe that the Bible is the one true account is just that, a belief. So hang on to your belief, but accept that there are others. Personal faith is not equivalent to universal truth. What really matters is how you apply your faith and what good it does you or others.

PK,

Have you actually read Jenny’s comments before spreading your ignorance around?

To ask a Christian to ignore universal truths to accommodate or be respectful to others is pure madness. It only proves that you don’t have a clue when it comes to theology.

Have you actually read the Bible? Which passages have been changed according to your claim? And why? To suit what agendas??

Jesus is the Word. He did not need to record or recite it. His eye witnesses wrote the New Testament, and many historians confirmed Jesus’ life, death and resurrection.

The only religion other than Judaism and Christianity to record a Jesus account is Islam. Mohammad and the revisionists after him tried real hard to make Jesus look less than what he claimed to be but failed miserably.

If Jesus was just a man, how can you explain the Qur’anic account of His virgin conception, His miracles, His return to judge the world, etc…? Mohammad himself agreed that Jesus was greater than he.

To say that Jesus is less than God incarnate is to spit on God’s face and call Him a liar. Are you prepared to do that – assuming that you do believe in the same God of course and not a substitute to suit your faith and other beliefs?

Yes there may be other beliefs, and many religions, but only one true God, revealed in one true scripture, offering one absolute certainty of salvation in Christ Jesus.

Why would you want to believe anything else?

I am sure that Bill Cruse (who is not a Priest BTW) will confirm and say Amen to this or he can’t be called a Christian no matter how many feet he washes or lunches he serves.

"Then a few days ago, a prominent Sydney Muslim identity asked me if I could fill in for him" linking to kaysar trad.

Gawd ifran ... u do favors for this creep, let alone associate with him?

well keysar trad is a good muslim, as we can see in his writings here,

http://democracyfrontline.org/blog/?p=325

and the correct muslim attitude to gay people

http://worldwar111.blogspot.com/2006/02/keysar-at-uni-of-western-sydney-on.html

Gawd ifran ... u do favors for this creep, let alone associate with him? hey next time u see him remind him bigamy is illegal and we Aussies find it a vile practice, thanks...

Do you think Aussies should trust him or you by your association?

PS
Do we say "armchair nazis" at eastertime, or after.

It took me til half-way through the article to get what Irfan was saying. Being a Satanic Feminist and former enslaved christian female, I had to think very hard to remember the whole Easter, Jesus scenario. Ahh, washing of the feet, God serving man.

Isn't that what all religious conflict is about? Man using God to further his own bigoted, repressive agendas. I remember a Biblical quote that seems appropriate here, "You will know a man by his works." I'm sure I screwed that up. My meaning is this. The overwhelming picture of religious peoples of the world is one of war, and a cult of death. If the majority of the population of the world actually believes in God then God must love death and destruction. I don't see much peace and love. Just a bunch of humans mouthing the same old platitudes and behaving like barbarians.

Irfan I commend you on your desire to serve the Saints of the world. However, I'm a bit suspicious, after all you are a lawyer. In this country, if a lawyer is seen serving Saints he may be accused of being an ambulance chaser. I hope you were not trolling for potential clients.

Patty first..
I truly hope you can stand back from your situation and see how you are reacting to a very distorted experience of 'Christianity'.

The tone of Irfans article reflects the warmth and love which can be had in Christ, and I applaud his references to the centrality of Jesus and his demonstration of Servanthood as a mark of discipleship.

PK/Freethinker. Jesus very much 'recorded' his teaching: in the following ways.

Stories which cannot be forgotten (Parable of the sower, prodigal son and so many others) by repetition over 3 yrs, and by focusing on 12 men (which is the optimum learning unit by the way).

An experience of persecution of Christians by Muslims in Malaysia was related to me in 1980ish, in the actual village where it occurred- thats over 20 yrs ago. It is etched in stone in my memory, but most other events of that time are all hazy.

Irfan has shown something wonderful about Jesus, my prayer is that he will go the next step and come to know Jesus as 'The Christ' as his own Lord and Savior, rather than just ' a great man'.

Irf has also shown us something about people, and the hunger for righteousness in word and deed. Jesus said:

[37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as[c] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

Rather than analyze the theology of Irfans piece, I urge readers to consider this Jesus, man ? yes, God ? indeed, manifest to us, renewing souls, forgiving sin, transforming hearts, minds and wills.

Lets all seek that 'living water' and allow it to flow through us to others, specially those in need.

David, I find it interesting that you label my Christian experience distorted. If that is the case then you have your Christian brethren your thank. My experience is just that, my experience. I see a world filled with Christians who worship only on the Christian Holidays and promote their own good works as a way to make themselves look better.

As an example take our President Bush. He claims that God wanted him to be President. He claims to be a born again Christian. By saying to Iran, " the United States will use nuclear force to stop their nuclear technology," he is in essence saying to Iran "that if they were dying of thirst, he wouldn't give them the sweat off of his balls." Now that's the Christian attitude that permeates our world.

Where are your Christians? The ones who follow the teachings of Jesus? Why aren't they leading our world? If they were, I might come back to the fold. Until then, I don't need any man or God, to tell me how to be a decent human being. It's common sense. You show up, you honor your commitments. It's that simple.

Irfan, you don't define the term "saint" but suggest that they are thick on the ground. A better definition would be those the Buddha described as "stream-enterers" - those who have experienced Nibbana for the first time and are forever changed by the experience. More broadly, the characteristics of a saint include great wisdom, loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, equanimity and energy devoted to helping others, particularly in helping them to develop spiritually. Those who I have met who stand out are three great spiritual teachers, S N Goenka, J N Krishnmaurti and Ajahn Chah (of whom only Goenka is still alive).

Note the limits of compassion without wisdom. Wisdom, understanding, is necessary if efforts to help others are to be truly useful and effective rather than misdirected.

Patty Jr. Satanic Feminist:

“I see a world filled with Christians who worship only on the Christian Holidays and promote their own good works as a way to make themselves look better.”

Strangely accurate. I believe that Irfan is a Muslim though. More to the point, are there any religious holidays that the man is yet to appropriate? We have Irfan’s Christmas message and now this for Easter.

Perhaps Irfan's Hanukkah words of peace and inspiration for the kuffar as they ease themselves into his all singing and all dancing version of Sharia light. That which he will no doubt return to the peddling of, soon.

Seriously, this man is a serial offender and it is odd that OLO still panders to him by posting this demented and deeply dishonest style of propaganda.

Boaz-David notes “The tone of Irfans article reflects the warmth and love which can be had in Christ,”

Agreed it may read nicely, but realistically, based on ifrans OLO track record, (pro sharia armchair nazi name calling garbage) common sense naturally concludes this latest “façade of decency ” can only be false.

Any association with Keysar Trad for a start by our terms is akin to a date with Hitler. Ifran may well come forward and disassociate himself from Trad, and the hypocrisy of such a move will be glaringly obvious. Just a further blunder rendering him as another aggressively unbalanced voice from the islamic lobby in Australia.

As readers I think a lot of us are obviously offended at the low-grade standard of ifrans approach to statements and conversation on the important matter of Australia’s future. I know I am finding it a worthless degredation of debate, where one can only ask him to get real or bugger off.

Judging by the comment numbers on islamic articles here at OLO, that it’s obvious to us all that it’s the social problem people want to discuss.

I agree with Mr. P Pig, it has become indecent of OLO to publish ifrans articles, when there are other more capable and realistic writers on the subject around.

Thanks, Coach. Your response to my post shows you in stark relief as a religious bigot. Fair enough, you are allowed to be, as long as we know that and put your posts in that context. On the question of the Bible, you should know that the authenticity of the modern day version has its supporters and doubters among historians. The English version is 5 language groups removed from the local language used by the disciples. Popes have revised it. The treatment of Mary Magdalene from friend of Jesus to whore to respectability again is one example. If you want others, do your own research. If you want to consider the Bible as the word of God, go ahead. But it is just a matter of faith, nothing more.

Why do I always feel, when I read some of this stuff, the urgent need to revert to the simple.

There is a myth that a virgin was fertilised by a god and as a result gave birth to a god (the same one) who, after showing he was a great man, was killed and who then rose from the dead.

If people still want to believe this I think they are deluded and unfortunate.

Does this have anything at all to do with what is happening in the world?

What the hell are you on about?

PK,

I think it is bizarre that you call me a bigot when it is you who are offended with the truth, and find it intolerable to hear that Jesus is God incarnate.

I take it as a compliment and honour. At least I am not a hypocrite like the author of the article who pretends to be a nice person when convenient and profitable.

As for the authenticity of the Bible as I expected you give me nothing to substantiate your previous attacks. Mary Magdalene? Translations? Popes? Common! Where is the meat?

An apology would be a good start if you want to redeem yourself and re-establish your credibility on OLO.

The Bible is the inspired revelation of God through many hundreds of years. It is not a pretend verbal dictation from above. It is factual, poetic, historical, experiential, miraculous, etc… God's Love for His creation and Christ as our one and only saviour is its foundational message.

Of course it requires faith to understand and believe the “unseen". It is not through logic alone that humans can deduce (or reduce) God. To know Jesus is the closest anyone would get to know the fullness of God on this side of eternity.

Stan1,

To answer your questions

1. “If people still want to believe this (myth) I think they are deluded and unfortunate.”
Sorry mate the shoe is in the wrong foot. That “myth” is the reality and you by exercising your God given free will have chosen to become deluded and lost.

2. “Does this have anything at all to do with what is happening in the world?”

Absolutely. It all depends how you chose to understand the world. If your life on earth is just a cosmic coincidence …then that is how you will view your world.

3. “What the hell are you on about?”

A better question would be: “What on earth are you doing for heaven’s sake?”
It is all part of God’s plan for the universe He has created. Get with the programme or you will forever be asking questions.

I find it interesting that the God fearing are determined to convince the Godless that they are missing something. This forum is a perfect example of my point. The God fearing can't let the Godless, simply live their lives. There is nothing wrong with people who choose to live a day at a time. Making choices, taking responsibility for those choices. A persons belief system is a personal choice, and ultimately a personal relationship with the creator, whatever, or whomever it may be. The God fearing don't have anymore information than the Godless. Everyone, regardless of their belief system will know the true answer when they're dead.

I say to the God fearing, what are your beliefs doing to the world? Are they creating war and death? If so, you my friend are a problem for the rest of us.

Patty Jr....it's those from your side of the fence who created so much of the bloodshed, agony and trouble for us in the last century what with Mr Adolf, Mao, Joe (Stalin), Pol Pot, the brutal atheistic communist regimes etc etc

Coach - you put out faith as fact again, at the same time accusing me of failing to support my case. This is online opinion, remember, not online scholasticism. While I have done some reading and research on the topics of our discussion, I'm not going to bore everyone and waste my time by quoting chapter and verse. I am aware that there is claim and counter claim regarding the veracity of at least some sections of the Bible. So no doubt, I could claim and you could counter claim. I have just short circuited that by pointing out that it is a matter of faith, and that point is beyond question. You claim it is the 'truth' and I don't accept that. If it is incumbent on either of us to prove their case, it is me, not you. I have cast doubt on the veracity of the Bible, but cannot definitively prove that it is not the undiluted and unaltered word of God any more than you can prove the opposite. What I have asked you to do is to accept that while you have your faith, which in no way offends me, it is clear that you cannot at the same time tolerate any beliefs that do not accord with your faith. That to me is classic bigotry. I don't see that I have anything to apologise for in pointing that out. I have made it clear that I am not offended by your faith, but I don't particularly like naked bigotry. If you are insulted by the description, then perhaps you should review your position.

A nice warm, fuzzy piece from Irfan, trying to interrupt our prejudices by calling street people 'saints'. As I've said before, religions nearly always start out standing up for the poor and oppressed, because the founders of religions are themselves poor and oppressed. It's just self interest. When the religion gains power, it usually forgets its beginnings and seeks to maintain its power. The most curious way of watching this transition is by reading the books of those religions which continued to collect their holy texts throughout this transition - notably, judaism and islam. Both forgot their warm, fuzzy past and justified any oppression which benefited the religion. Both also had traditions of speaking truth to power; the Prophets in Judaism and that type of jihad in islam which is 'the word of justice in the presence of an iniquitous ruler'. Note that this is a very minor aspect of jihad, of which the major meaning and tradition is religiously regulated warfare.
Note also that the saints in islam that Irfan refers to, the sufis, were the most vigorous in the violent expansionary jihad of the first few centuries of islam's expansion and colonisation. I suspect that many muslims who know this would not thank Irfan for the likening them to street people.

Stan and Patty,

People can beleive what they want in the free world, it's when those beleifs are to do with hate and the desruction of my country such as the lovley lil meeting (several hundred people) out Hizb-ut-Tahrir in Bankstown Sydney last week.

http://democracyfrontline.org/news/?p=387

Come on you blokes!
Allow Ifran to have what he feels is a real experience for himself. I neither agree with Ifrans or Bill's theology, but allow him a different learning experience. Where you are today in your thoughts and beliefs did not happen in one nights revelation.

Of course we have all the old chesnuts from the atheists. I could answer them with reality but the subject is about the service and sacrifice of Jesus. Did Judas mix with Jesus? Yes Jesus had among his friends theives, scheemers and Zionist zealot sympathisers, Judas was one of them.

Philo, your post starts by commendably showing a bit of tolerance for those with whom you disagree. It takes a turn for the worse when you talk about giving 'atheists' a 'dose of reality'. Any such dose could only be of YOUR reality and this is not necessarily reality for others as I'm sure you realise. You go on to admirably refrain from attempting to deliver such a dose. Nobody on this opinion site has a monopoly on truth or reality. Meaningful exchange of opinion is best started by acceptance of that point as I take it you have. Anything less descends into strident proselytising, then into stances such as condescention towards non-believers for being 'deluded' as can be seen in posts above.

Francis, Adolf Hitler was a devout Christian. As for Pol Pot and Stalin. Where were the Christians who are the defenders of the poor and oppressed. If this world saw more faith in action instead of the empty rhetoric, (Jesus loves you, know Jesus,) we're all subjected to, there would have been heaven on earth long ago. Christians talk a good game but in everyday life I see very little from them. Look at how the Catholic Church turned their backs on the Jews during WWII.

Irfan a Muslim lawyer has an Easter experience he chooses to label as serving of Saints. Those saints being poor, and mentally disturbed. That on the surface is faith in action. Only his God knows what's in his heart. Just as only my creator know what's in mine.

Patty Jr.....So Hitler was a devout Christian.....and pigs might fly......it only goes to show that you haven't a clue.....in fact, Hitler loathed Christianity and saw it as a Jewish product (well, Jesus was a Jew). Now, you must do your homework better than that. You mention Pol Pot and Stalin (from your side of the fence).....you left Mao out (are you ashamed of him?) but then you go off on to something else.....what about them, after all, they're your mates? You then mention the Catholic Church turning its back on the Jews during WW2. Read Rabbi David Dalin's latest book.....you might learn the truth.....then again, you might be impervious to the truth for there are none so blind as those who will not see. Anyway, the evil and brurality of your satanic mates: Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc is not something that I would be proud of.

Francis, I guess it depends on which biography you read and believe. There are many versions of the truth in print everywhere. I've read versions of Hitlers years where he would covet and use Christian symbols as a way to focus his personal power. To say he was a strange man is an understatement. As for the other murderous dictators you mention, I have no affiliation with any of them.

My personal beliefs are personal. Satanic Feminist is a label I've chosen because in my experience any one who asks to many questions of religious peoples are labeled as evil. Any one who does not go along to get along is labeled evil. Any woman who does not accept the authority of the church and man is a whore. I am an individual. A thinking human being capable of making up my own mind about what I see and experience. I do not need to get my thinking handed to me by any religious institutions.

You will know a person by their actions in the world, not by the label on their back. I believe this is a Christ like idea. Yet you chose to react to my label and lump me in with murderous dictators. Gee That's not very Christian of you. Oh, wait, based on my posts on this forum, yes it is.

It is ludicrous to argue about dogma and rewritten history. Irfan chose to call homeless mental patients, Saints. I have also served the homeless and rubbed elbows with the Saints. It's not something I go around bragging about.

If the world eventually goes to hell. You'll want a Satanic Feminist fighting by your side against tyranny. It's people like me who are capable of making the tough decisions and carrying the burden of those decisions.

Patty,

You chose the title "Satanic".....not me........so don't get upset when you are seen as a fellow traveller with other satanic individuals. You obviously haven't read much about Hitler or, rather, what Hitler himself believed and said....particularly in his later years. A truly satanic individual in the real and in sense of the word too.

Your second paragraph might indicate some delusion opr paranoia on your part. Your third para seems to indicate that you don't like to be challenged.....perhaps you like to dish it out but not take it. Perhaps your definition of a Christian needs some revision. Your final paras are somewhat strange to say the least.

Francis, I guess what we have here is a failure to communicate. There are many people who choose provocative labels for themselves. It is unfortunate that you single out the Satanic Feminist for vilification. You also choose to get personal in your comments. That too is unfortunate. So in the effort of keeping peace I agree that yes I have a lot to learn. I will then refrain from personally attacking you, thereby extending you the Christian charity that you deny your enemies. If you do not understand my comments, I can't help you there. We do not always understand everything. Sometimes it's our myopic vision of the world that prevents understanding.
Patty Jr. Satanic Feminist

Satanic Feminist......if you see my comments as "getting personal" then, I'm afraid, that is what you wish to see as is your belief that I was personally attacking you. Don't forget, you were vilifying Christians, particularly Catholics (the world's largest non-governemnt welfare agency) etc (refer your e-mail 21 April). You also came up with the un-truth that the Catholic Church turned its back on the Jews in WW2.....my reply was that the truth is otherwise so refer to Rabbi David Dalins latest book on how the Catholic Church saved Jews (it did more than all others combined) and refer to Rabbi Zolli's book.....Rabbi Zolli was chief Rabbi of Rome during WW2 and, after the war, he and his wife became Catholics because they saw what the Church did to protect and save Jews. Needless to say, these realities will never feature inthe media.

Francis, just a couple of links to emphasize my point, there is a lot of truth out there, we all choose what we believe. http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler/htm, http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/catholic.shtml

Yes, I attack all religions, especially where those beliefs are the cause of war. If you feel you have to kill another human, rather than let them have their own belief system, then you are a problem for the rest of us.

It fascinates me that Christians will not aknowledge the death and destruction that their beliefs have brought to the world.

Patty Jr.......the point I was making is that your side (the anti-religious,; irreligious; atheists)has brought the most suffering....in fact, more bloodshed and suffering in the twentieth century than in all previous centuries combined, yet I would never hold you personally responsible for what some of your fellow-travellers have done. I usually find that when people rant on about all the religious wars I ask them which religious wars they have in mind and that usually shuts them up. Of course there has been blood spilt and suffering caused in the past by some followers of Christ but nothing compared to what your lot has done. So, let those who live in glass houses not throw stones. It's interesing that you cite a web-site re the treeatment of Jews by the Nazis........I reiterate, read Rabbi David Dalin's recent book: The Myth of Hitler's Pope. How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis....www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html (I'm sure a Jewish Rabbi would be fairly objective and independent). Don't forget, the anniversary of the Armenian Genocide is approaching (tomorrow?) upon which Hitler modelled his genocidal intentions re the Jews. (Who remembers the Armenians?) It intrigues me that the irreligious etc, like yourself, refuse to acknowledge the misery and suffering, death and destruction that your beliefs have brought to humanity. You say that you attack all religions.....well so did the atheistic Soviet atheistic communists....and with brutality; as did the irreligious Mauo Tse-tung as did numerous other despots throughout histroy. Finally, I don't feel that I have to kill another human being.....what a stupid statement! I haven't killed anyone since the last time!

Patty Jr. Satanic Feminist and Francis,
By this time you have both got your point across. I am not sure how it relates to Easter?

I remember a vilified Jewish stonemason whose country was occupied by the Romans who seemed to express more sympathy for the irreligious Romans than for his zealous countrymen; who were devout lawkeepers. He being a rebel against the intollerance shown by his religious countrymen, they finally had him accused of blasphemy and crucified by Roman guards on the side of a road. Perhaps we can share some compassion to those ignorant of our position. They may crucify us but that leaves forgivness and reconciliation as open doors.

Philo, thank you. Your post is a breath of fresh air.

Who was the 'vilified stonemason'?

Was he a friend of the 'vilified Carpenter'?

Tregenna

tregenna,
I recognise popular opinion and Hollywood portray Jesus, as a carpenter in wood but this seems unlikely. From research done in Nazareth during the time very little timber was used in building which makes it more likely that Jesus was a builder using stone and mortar.

Hewn stones were the major resource of builders during that period. Even utensils were fashioned from stone [John 2: 6]; graves were hewn from stone [Matt 27: 60 – 66; Luke 23: 53]. Jesus disciples drew Jesus attention to the beauty of the stonework in the Temple, thinking he would appreciate its mastery [Mark 13: 1 – 2]. Anyone visiting Israel today knows well the importance of stone to the ancient city.

Joseph was a ‘tekton’ [Matt 13: 55], one who uses a hammer and chisel. The Sources outside the NT verify the Romans had employed Joseph for several months building a Stone construction before he returned to take Mary as his wife, but found she was six months pregnant; he immediately knew the child was not his because he had been away. If we take the line that Jesus followed Joseph’s trade profession it would put him among builders of stone and not among timber furniture manufacturers.

In Jesus 'word pictures' he constantly refers to stones eg stones instead of bread [Matt 7: 9], used millstones as a sinker [Matt 18: 6], base of a building [Matthew 21: 42; Mark 12: 10] stone walls formed a sheep fold, water-pots of stone, sepulchre etc. Jesus never alludes to constructions of timber. Being an artisan he would naturally refer to things with which he was familiar. The falling stone was a familiar occurrence in his work [Matt 21: 44], and the destruction of the city by the enemy was the scattering of the stone buildings [Matt 24: 2].
As well as identifying Simon as a stone [John 1: 42] and the sons of Abraham [Luke 3: 8] he identifies himself as the chief corner stone [Luke 20: 17]. Peter follows up Jesus analogy by identifying Jesus as the chief corner stone [Acts 2: 11]

Philo, who are you? Are you a man of God? You have an analytical ability that goes beyond the ordinary. Of course Jesus was a stone mason and not a carpenter. It makes so much sense. There was a shortage of wood. Humans had to import or travel a great distance to acquire wood. One more inconsistency in the official Biblical version.
That is why I hold fast to the idea that a humans beliefs are personal. A relationship with your creator is personal. Should be respected as such. Not judged, because it does not conform to accepted dogma.
If you are judged by authority let that judgement come as a result of a breaking of humanistic, not religious law.

Patty,

Not so fast sister, urr... lady, person, mam, whatever..., Jesus was a carpenter same as most builders in Australia are carpenters by trade and contractors by title etc...it does not mean they cannot work with brick, stone, or any other kind of material.

But all this is immaterial to you and to all of us. This was just his day job and not His mission on earth. He is more, much more than that. Why are you so afraid of accepting The Truth?

God, your creator sent His son Jesus to reconcile you to Him and initiate that special relationship you so much elude to. It is not what you make of God but what He has done for you.

Your version of spirituality is not going to take you to that relationship. Your ego is restricting you from developing to the next level.

My relationship with my creator, is, my relationship with my creator. Why are you so concerned. Do you get a commission when someone comes to Jesus?

Coach, you sound like every other tired repeater of the same old story.

How about a new twist? I got to give Philo points for originality.

How about you make an attempt at thinking for yourself. You got any personal "come to Jesus stories you'd like to share." You want to give me some inspiration. Give me something, something I haven't heard a thousand times before.

Is that all you got?

No wonder, religion has seen better days.

Wishful thinking Satanic Feminist but you're off with the fairies. Is that why 20% of the many thousands converting last year in France were from atheism?

I was scared this forum would be overrun by the love-children of professional evangelist Josh McDowell. Still at least some people haven't missed the point.

Patty,

>>My relationship with my creator, is, my relationship with my creator. Why are you so concerned. Do you get a commission when someone comes to Jesus?<<

How can you have a “relationship” with your creator and bi-pass Jesus? Are we talking about the same God here?

Unfortunately it is the one and only old story my dear – if you are waiting for the big parade and the cheering girls you’ll be waiting and waiting...

If it’s religion you are after – sorry wrong number – I was talking about salvation, your free ticket to an eternity out of hell. Or are you so spiritually atrophied and brain numb that hell doesn’t scare you anymore?

You came here obviously seeking attention – this could be your last wakeup call. Come on board – drop your glass shield – you can’t hide from God.

Unless you have a better scheme that you would like to share with the rest of us mortals, I don’t know why you are so evasive from the truth?

Irfan,

Could it be possible that some of us didn't pinpoint your “point” so we decided to improvise.

Honored that Irfan chose to join us. I recall a Bible story about a man who brought some radical ideas to the world. He was killed for those ideas.

My creator, my God, my Hell. I chose not to live life based on fear. It is unfortunate that Coach chooses to inspire fear in order to convince me that I'm missing the boat to heaven.

What I hear most from people who are proselytizing is the same old Bible rhetoric that they have heard or read all their lives and then they repeat that rhetoric in an effort to convince someone that they are missing Jesus in their lives. You know what, I'd rather hear about your personal experience with Jesus. How about a personal miracle or two. You got anything like that?

People Like Francis and even Coach are not content to let others live, comforted in the knowledge that it is Gods job to judge me. That's right, if you people really believe what you say you believe, then it's between me and God. I can live with that. Can you?

Satanic Feminist.....the waffle that you get carried away with. Satan was described as the father of lies. You chose the title "satanic"......can we expect any truth from you? Your previous correspondences have shown that you probably haven't heard much because you are not prepared to listen to others. You cannot stand being challenged. You trot out the distortions etc and you expect others, who don't agree with you, to remain silent. When they challenge you you get your knickers in a knot! Personally, whether you believe or not, I couldn't give a stuff. But practise the tolerance that you seem to want others to show to you.

Francis the Talking Mule was a popular television show in the U.S. in the nineteen fifties. Of course we have another name for mule, an ass. I suspect it is you who does not like to be challenged and who is wearing the blinders. Much like your namesake.

What does this have to do with Musings on Easter? In an effort to bring things full circle, this is what I have. A man of God challenged the thinking of the day. He had compassion for people that society had no use for. He was betrayed and crucified, later reportedly rising from the dead. This forum is a perfect example of the Easter story. Radical ideas equals crucifixion.

Let God judge. All you're doing is annoying the rest of us.

Satanic Feminist.....see, you've got your knickers in a knot again! Can't take it can you?

Francis, thank you.

Ifran, warm & fuzzy, wearing a frizzy lawyer wig, washing my feet after they have treked across suburbia street. Am I wearing open sandals, where bindi become embedded in my poor soles/soul? Who are your saints? Your friend the Uniting Church Minister? Or Francis, who keeps reminding us what big sinners we are? Even a Lawyer will tell you, Memory becomes very fuzzy after a few weeks, a few beers, so how did these writers ‘stick to the facts,’ after 70 years. Then the translators accurate with their wording?

Elida....learn to read properly....since when have I pronounced what "big sinners we are".....your imagination is playing tricks on you.....or is this what you really believe?

I liked the underlying message of the article - that we should follow the example of Jesus, Mohammed and other prophets and serve our fellow human beings. Perhaps he stood on a few toes and wasn't adequately eloquent in his writing, but in the raw his message rings true.

The 'black and white' approach to religion scares me a bit. I mean, I believe in the virgin birth but, at the same time, I can fully understand why others might not believe. And I'm comfortable with that. I don't think I'm deluded, and I don't think they are deluded either.

I acknowledge that my religion mixes fact with issues of faith. Some of us have faith in those issues, others don't. If we all take the time to do good things - not because God told us to, but because we tell ourselves to - what difference does it make?

I'm not big on washing feet, but I will happily serve others. If it scores brownie points with the man upstairs, then so be it. If it doesn't, at least it makes me feel good about myself.