Quite an interesting and insightful article until,

“As a community of peace loving and compassionate people of God, devoted to our religious beliefs and bound together by our common desires to spread love, peace and harmony,”. Another poor attempt at religious deception.

Osman Softic then goes on to say that islam is completely dysfunctional as a religion, nothing could be more truthful as with all religions. He then tries to tell us that monotheists will do everything in their power to promote peace, as long as they can still have their own way. You will neve get harmony between religions or within them, its not a part of their nature and social expression.

Professor Samuel Huntington, is closer to the truth in “clash of civilisations” and that can be seen increasingly throughout the world. This country has a unique opportunity to go in the other direction, but we won't. Religion will ensure that we remain a part of the conflict, fully supported by its political representatives, social manipulators and empty headed primitive zealots.

Globalisation, multicultural, multi-religious and monotheism are all failed ideologies, as are communism, capitalism, and democracy. Like a wounded animal, they are staggering, but slowly losing strength. By 2010, they will have laid down and the fight will be over the leftovers.

As long as there is religion, there will be conflict.

If we havent learnt after a few thousand years that religion is a fruitless concept that divides us, causes immense problems and is often the core cause of conflict, we will never learn.

The weak and vulnerable need it as a belief system and the strong manipulate this system.

Pathetic, and the author is no better and religion is the reason we all will have one foot back in the stone age forever.

As clearly described by the author, the source of the conflict to world peace is: Islam.

This is the single force that is moving against everything the free world believes and has fought for.

Islam can use terror or "peace" to arrive to its evil ends.

'As long as there is religion there will be conflict'

Possibly - but the number of dead in wars of religion pales in comparison with those killed in the ideological wars of our century.

The imposition of Communism resulted in murderous purges, gulags, re-education camps, deportations, man-made famines, executions, show trials, and genocide. The Soviet Union appears to be the greatest murderer of all (approximately 61,000,000 people dead, with Stalin responsible for almost 43,000,000). Around 39,000,000 deaths were caused by forced labor.

Communist China (mainly from 1949 through the cultural revolution) is the second worst murderer (over 1,000,000 people killed). Let’s not forget the lesser murderers, such as North Korea.

Perhaps the most deadly and barbarous of all communist countries was Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot and his vile followers killed some 2,000,000 Cambodians from April 1975 - December 1978 (from a population of around 7,000,000). This is an annual rate of over 8% of the population murdered - the odds of an average Cambodian surviving Pol Pot's rule was just over 2 to 1.

Communists have murdered approximately 110,000,000 people (nearly 2/3rds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987). It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. The number of murders by the Soviet Union alone surpasses the war dead. And the murders carried out by communist China almost equal it. Communism has been the most disastrous social engineering experiment the world has ever seen - it has killed over 100,000,000 men, women, and children, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked.

Nazi Germany murdered approximately 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslavs, Frenchmen, etc. The Nationalist government of China under Chiang Kai-shek murdered nearly 10,000,000 Chinese (1928-1949) and the Japanese invaders murdered almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Indochinese, Koreans, Filipinos, and others during world War II. Add to this 1,000,000 or more Bengalis and Hindus killed in East Pakistan in 1971 by the Pakistani army.

A very good article.

To the posters above:
Alchemist - "...By 2010, they will have laid down and the fight will be over the leftovers."
So what do you foresee as the successor to these failed ideologies?

Realist - "The weak and vulnerable need it as a belief system and the strong manipulate this system"
So which one does that make you?

Coach - "As clearly described by the author, the source of the conflict to world peace is: Islam"
Funny, I thought the author was saying that the source of the conflicts are "These small groups of extremists symbolised by the al-Qaida terrorist network have been spreading fear and insecurity, endangering innocent human lives and threatening our harmonious coexistence in Australia", ie individuals, people who are bent on bringing the world into chaos and stirring up conflict, regardless of the religious clothing they wear. A point i totally agree with.

Beliefs and ideas are transient and exist only in thought or on paper. Alone they cause nothing.

Surly the American century comes in somewhere. World domination is not a desire of just a few Islamists there are some born again Christians whose needs can only be met at the expense of others. As always there are politicains who seek their meaning in life by manipulating not serving democracy. Then there is economic well being and feeling secure a zero sum game. We tried with the UN the l;atest of the struggles for international communion and the rule of law. By passed with weazal words deceptions and lies! So maybe a continueing calsh but hardly as clearly defined, even to a politician desiring votes and power more than truth, as a clash of cultures>

Donnie - it may appear that the global islamic terrorism problem is the work of only a few extremists, this is exactly what the media and politicians have succeded to make us all believe.

This far, no “moderate” Muslims of stature has been ready to stand up and challenge in public Islamic religion-motivated, xenophobic aggression. (No prize for guessing why)

It is part of islamic tenets as modelled by their prophet mohammad to be aggressive to all non-muslim. Jews (and Christians) according to the Koran are descendents of apes and pigs, i.e., they are subhuman beings, and fair game.

This mortal hatred intrinsic“truth" is taught in all Muslim religious schools from the age of four and five.

A reformation of islam is out of the question. No Muslim is allowed to question even a single word of the Qur'an. The penalty for that is death of course.

Democracy is out in islam. Only Allah's law is respected. So to trust muslims to denounce their religious beliefs and become peaceful law abiding citizens is pure phantasies.

In all fairness I know of many muslims who came here escaping islamic regimes and wanting nothing to do with their religion but are too scared of the repercussions should they dare renounce their faith.

we can usa any mumer fo excuses as to why we have war in the human species... fact is we do and we always will as far as i can see from today. No ethic, religion, science, philosphy, idealogy etc has yet solved the nature of humans war like tendencies. We have minds, opinions and choices and will always disagree here and there.

The constant blame on religion is pointless as is the blame of anything as the total problem...

I think we must accept our nature and stop trying to force change on some of the most fundimental instincts we have, by this i mean the survival of oneself and ones prefered ethic, religion, science, philosphy, idealogy etc.

My biggest hope is that we can make our wars more efficient, quick and less painful.

As always I'm going for the West, my preferance is democracy!

One only need read the newspapers every day to see the impact of Muslims on Western countries. Crimes and antisocial behaviour by Muslims far outweigh their numbers.

Muslims constitute only a small percentage of Australia’s population, yet the reports in Sydney newspapers over the past few days tell the true story.

1. The terrorism trial in the NSW Supreme Court of accused terrorist Faheem Lodhi who migrated from Pakistan to Australia supposedly "for a better life" – not to wage a violent jihad on Australians, of course.

2. Drug death prisoner on bomb charge

‘A prisoner who allegedly instructed his girlfriend to bomb Sydney is to be charged by counter-terrorism police. Hassan Kalache, serving 22 years for the execution of a drug rival was interviewed by the specialist officers yesterday…

3. Gun pulled in baby ward

‘A gunman threatened a hospital security guard while visiting his wife in a maternity ward last night. The man, described as being of Middle Eastern appearance, brandished his weapon at Auburn Hospital just before 9pm.

4. Police drop charges for riot reprisal

‘Last minute legal advice has failed to stave off the dropping of charges against 6 men accused of reprisal attacks following the Cronulla riots, dealing an embarrassing blow to the state government.’

5. The doctor father of the Pakistani gang rapists arrested for perjury, and also under watch by the Medical Board for overprescribing addictive drugs.

This is a 'minority'? Tell that to the Europeans who no longer have freedom of speech and expression because of the violent, dysfunctional followers of Islam who have been allowed to flood into Europe and bring their hatred with them.

yess dee,

with islam we need to push back harder than they push us to win this one.

Dee, I don't know where you got the figures in your first post from, but they don't really add up. A good site for 20th Century death figures is http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm . Approx 55 million died in WW2 alone, 15 million in WW1. If you say that 38 million died in all 20th Century wars does that mean you're only counting combatants? A lot more civilians than soldiers died in WW2. I would suggest that most WW2 deaths should probably be sheeted home to Japan and Germany (ie not communists), but that's just my opinion. Your figures for Stalin are also the subject of dispute, but that's not to say that Communist Russia under Stalin was not a Really Bad Place.

I don't disagree that the 20th Century has seen few religious wars, but what really distiguishes it from previous eras is the mechanisation of killing. Machine guns, aerial bombing, poison gas, nuclear weapons etc etc. We have become more efficient, but no smarter.

On your second post, why is it that every thread on this forum inevitably deteriorates into an anti-Muslim rant?

The young lady on insight had it right; don't tolerate; accept.Come on
we all have different opinions and ideals.Good and bad in every race;it's the bad seeds that we need to weed out. Not with war;it proves it's own point(war doesn't differentiate between good and bad,it maims and kills anyway). Meredith and Dee you just want more bloodshed cause that is all war is.It is power trippin people like you who are the problem.More quick and efficient? Get real. Make lottsa love, if your capable, if your not take a good hard look at yourself. That is what your missin.

"It is part of islamic tenets as modelled by their prophet mohammad to be aggressive to all non-muslim. Jews (and Christians) according to the Koran are descendents of apes and pigs, i.e., they are subhuman beings, and fair game."
I'm curious to know where you got this from,Coach. From my investigations into Islam, Muslems believe they share a common ancestor with the Jews in Abraham. They believe the Arabs are descended from the first son of Abraham, Ishmael, and the Jews are descended from his second, Isaac.I always thought Islam began with Mohammed, but he considered Islam (literally, Surrender) to be a logical continuation, or evolution of the 'religion of the book' ie Jewish and Christian religions. Indeed, I believe he exhorted his people to be tolerant of the 'children of the book' (christians and Jews) for these reasons.
There is no tenet, no belief, no principle no matter how noble that cannot be subverted or simply used as an excuse for evil, by those unevolved individuals who can never understand what it is that makes us human. Simply the ability to empathise with each other; feel what it is like to be someone or even something else; even and particularly our victims.

The Author said:

"Let me make this very clear - what we are also witnessing is the manipulation of Islamic religion and civilisation for confrontational political ends"

..... exactly. Just like the Maoists are seeking to stir up then hijack the popular momentum in Nepal.

In fact, this is the standard tactic of any ideology. In our weaker moments, we Christians are prone to this also. One problem for us though, is that when such activities are subjected to the light of Scripture, they fail dismally to stand up !

"My kindgom is not of this world".. said Jesus

"If anyone would be great among you, let him become sevant of all"

"The first shall be last" "The meek shall inherit the earth"

"When you go to a banquet, do not seek the seat of greatest honour, instead, take the lowest seat"

Coaches point about Islam, has validity. The problem is this, Islam is a Political/Social/Spiritual entity, with all those aspects equally encompassed under the umbrella of 'Submission to Allah'.
It is quite correct to have an 'Islamic' Army, but there is no such thing as a 'Christian' army, only the 'Armed forces of the State'.

Realist would give us 'Nihilism' and survival of the strongest. (watch out for those weak moments bro, the sharks might bite ya :)

Yabby would give us 'moral anarchy' :) "Im-a watchin you boy"

Others would give us 'be nice' with no reason to be so except social/legal consequences.

Peace will elude us as long as we allow our fallen natures, tainted by original sin, to move us to lust after 'The greener grass' or to sell opium to millions of Chinese with the British Army backing you (then goto the synagogue and be 'well spoken of for acts of charity in their community' as the Sassoon family was), or force the Japanese to open their doors for Trade (USA's Commodore Perry), or steam roll indigenous people for the sake of pasture(oops..thats us), or clear the highlands of Scotland for the same reason. (my ancestors copped that)

Religion is part of the problem but for different reason then most suspect. As has been mentioned the none religious can kill just as well. The real issue is extremism this notion that your world view is worth imposing on other people. To point were you believe it is okay to kill people to spread the word. We see this is in two forms the week tend to use terror tactics and the strong tend to use economic. There are probably only three ways forward.
1). Continue as we are with small conflicts and the occasional big one, most likely.
2). Mass genocide, kill all your enemies. As history shows this is a never ending task and so if pursued you generally end destroying yourself.
3). The people of the world dissolve national borders and learn to get along based on individual freedom and collective responsibility. This however is the least likely to happen.
Religion is part of the problem but it will die a natural death soon enough because it is not part of the solution. The key is to raise the standard of living of all Earth’s peoples. People fight over resources and the trick will be to share our natural resources more evenly and not tolerate greed at any level.

>>Religion is part of the problem but it will die a natural death soon enough because it is not part of the solution.<<

Kenny you forgot one point: God's plan for His creation - never underestimate that.

Grim,

I’m guessing that you are a genuine “investigator” of islam or you may be a muslim.

In the Qur’an there are two kinds of people: "believers" in Allah and his prophet Mohammad; and the others, the "unbelievers", aka Jews, Christians, idolators, pagans, evildoers, etc… who must burn in hell and be fought by true muslims (believers).

The Qur’anic verses depicting Jews as Pigs and Apes:

The Cow [2.65] And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We (Allah) said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

The Dinner Table [5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.

The Elevated Places [7.166] Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

In the Bible God revealed himself and made a covenant with Abraham, then his sonIsaac, and his son Jacob (Israel). Arabs are indeed the descendents of Ishmael but have no divine inheritance being outside that covenant. The only way back in line with God is through confessing the name of His Son Jesus - The Messiah.

On that notion alone, islam does not follow, complement nor confirm the Scriptures (Bible) and is a false religion held together by fear, intolerence, and reprisals.

I will be glad to discuss any issues you may have with that.

Religion is simply another excuse to belt the other bloke. War is highly profitable, peace is not.
Humans have been fighting since they have been capable of it, you only have to watch chimpanzees in the wilds to see where we came from.
And their quite nasty natures. Then look at us and our history , our past and our future simply show more of the same.

No peace on earth for you my friends. Peace is boring. I also suspect that it will actually be in the interest of the New World Order to keep a conflict going somewhere. I see some hijacking of the scholarly version of the N.W.O., by the less humanitarian power brokers of the N.W.O.; multinational corporate interests.

I refer you to the recent outsourcing of American manufacturing jobs, and let's not ignore first quarter record profits by an American oil company. Which begs the question, who really profits from war in Iraq?

While Al-Qaeda fights their Jihad with the West. The multinational corporation laughs all the way to the bank. I'm afraid we have only begun to see the horror that will be created by capitalism, unapologetic, and unchecked. That is how the picture is shaping up with respect to multinational corporate interest and the New World Order.

Religion plays right into the hands of this scenario, it is rather easy to manipulate a fundamentalist of any faith as they usually lack imagination..

Utopia, is a pipe dream that will continue to explode in our Western faces.

Alchemists comments pricked my curiosity - "Globalisation, multicultural, multi-religious and monotheism are all failed ideologies, as are communism, capitalism, and democracy" he goes on to tell us "it" will all be over by 2010.... well Sneekee is here to tell you he is wrong. But I digress..

Earlier he said we can avoid the "clash of civilisations" referred to earlier and we can go "the other way" - but we refuse or wont or something like that.

It was all rather messianic but we were never told where is or how to get to the "the way" - but I am asking What are you talking about alchy old pal? - what IS the other way (or was it direction) after everything else has failed or is failing?

It is not really religions that are on trial here but there are many that use these forums as some kind of latter day Star Chamber - blaming religion for anything is stupid really. At the end of the day - or in the beginning if you prefer - it is competing belief systems and interests that bedevil us (yes I said bedevil)- even if you are card carrying atheist you carry with you set of beliefs that are just as likely to piss as many people off as those held dear by the Kaiser Kardinal Benedict.

And my views on the Islam/Terrorism/Crimespree/UnAustralian/overthrowourvaluesystem are well known - it cuts no ice with me - we treated the irish catholics the same way once = based on the same ignorance we show today - in a shamefully under reported speech by John Faulkner he outlined the allegations of criminality, the fear that they established their own schools and that their values were at odds with "our" own - that were levelled against the Irish.

And the great Irony is when you think of all those squeeling for assimilation and the like - that the greatest enemy of assimilation is prejudice - the type we harbour in spades towards Islam

Nothing draws people together faster or closer than a gang of thugs calling you names and twisting the truth to justify inate hatred.

I appeal to the author and all contributors to seriously consider the benefits of belief in and obedience to the tooth fairy. This cherubic seraphim will without doubt solve all the world's problems and put things right.

Thermoman, you cheeky monkey. Given the number of people in our world who live their lives everyday thinking magically, that includes our leadership, I suspect there is a group of magical thinkers out there who do indeed believe in the power of the tooth fairy. They're called children, and they are all around us.

The N.W.O. loves children, they're right up there with fundamentalist religious people, easy to manipulate.

Sneeke, 2010, by then we'll either be enslaved to a totalitarian world, full on religious war, or our society will have collapsed as health and the environment overcome us. History shows us ruling societies collapse the fastest and in a very short space of time.

I understand the fear people have of the future, thats why they cling to the falsity of religion. It keeps them where their minds are, prehistoric and fearful. It must be so frightening for those not able to see beyond the illusion, cringing in desperation to uphold their beliefs under the weight of reality.

Another direction, overturn economic growth and promote sustainable and renewable outcomes. Our entire society is dedicated to economic outcomes they're veiled under the cloke of religion. You never see a broke church, but you see a lot of broke people. Monotheists rave about the good works of the churches in welfare, but they fail to accept that most of the problems have been caused by monotheistic intervention in peoples lives in the first place. But it won't happen, the self-righteous will ensure that we continue down the path chosen by god, death and destruction

Sneeke, people beliefs only piss others off when they are forced upon others. No ones beliefs bother me, but their application and delusion certainly does.

Kenny is right, religion is the problem and so can't be the part of the solution. You don't stop a leak by pouring more water into it, you use something that is the opposite to water.

Theres never been peace since the inception of monotheism, so its logical to assume that if it were removed, we may find the peace we seek. I wouldn't hold my breath though. Its interesting to note, that of all the billions of people that have died fighting in the name of god, mostly against others fighting in the name of god, god never saved one. It seems that the only salvation from the belief in god, comes in the form of death.

Many have evolved beyond ideologies, the answer lies in that evolution.

john J
"why is it that every thread on this forum inevitably deteriorates into an anti-Muslim rant? "

Of course islam is going to come up in a string about would peace...the current world problems lead always to a talk on islam, hadn't you noticed 9/11 Spain Bali, London Cartoon psychosis or Iran wanting isreal wiped of the face of the Earth and all the bits of islamic warfare social and violent inbetween?

They are the current problem along with the moonbats that think they can make friends with islam on PC terms.

Don't you hope modern civilisation wins this current round of war.

Meredith, how exactly does recycling domestic stories from the Daily Terrorgraph count as comment on "current world problems"? Eg: "A gunman threatened a hospital security guard while visiting his wife in a maternity ward last night. The man, described as being of Middle Eastern appearance, brandished his weapon at Auburn Hospital just before 9pm" etc etc.

Sadly, the debate on this forum rarely rises above this miserable level. People peddle their prejudices and provide nothing to back them up. My view is that prefacing a racist remark with "I don't believe in political correctness" does not make it any less racist.

There is very little research on ethnicity and crime in Australia. The best I could find was from the Australian Institute of Criminology at http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/ethnicity-crime/ethnic-ch6.pdf Much of this report is pretty commonsense, eg "Most arrests of members of migrant groups, like that of the Australian-born, involve young males in the age group 15-24. Arrest rate of this group, with rare exceptions, was found to be higher than any other demographic group." Perhaps we just need to lock up all those boys till they grow up. If there's an ethnic crime-wave could someone please show me the stats?

Re 9/11, Bali, London etc. There's no question that these are appalling terror crimes, but are you also appalled that (for exampe) 3.8 million people died between 1998 and 2003 in the Congolese Civil War? We're a long way from peace on earth and on a global scale Al-Qaida et al are fleas, both morally and literally.

Ah! yes,don't mention the war. Why is it that when Islam is mentioned we are classed as being 'racist'? Yet the most violent, terrible murderers today are Islamists. That is undeniable.
A reporter asked a muslim spokesman the other day what he thought were Australian values and this person who had migrated to this country answered in the most contemptuous sneering tone,"Australian values!Throw a bit of meat on the barby"
This is what new comers thing of us, soft, stupid and easy to manipulate. We deserve it.

mickijo, could you provide a link to the article? I'd be interested in reading it. Re racism: "violent, dysfunctional followers of Islam who have been allowed to flood into Europe and bring their hatred with them", is that racist or not? My original post said "anti-Muslim rant", you can call it anything you like (as long as you don't call it sensible).

John J

http://democracyfrontline.org/news/?p=387
Above is link to a lil HuT meeting in Bankstown a few weeks ago,

and here is a link to the supoosedly moderat Keysar Trads opinions
http://worldwar111.blogspot.com/2006/02/racisim-islamic-response.html
You can find more on K Trad there too..

If you don't find this offensive to Australia and want to continue trusting this religion (not race) then you are disturbed.

MikiJo,

yeh it is like that thing "just don't mention the war"

"Yabby would give us 'moral anarchy' :) "Im-a watchin you boy""

Umm BD, sometimes we can learn a little by observing nature.
If we look at our closest relatives, chimps and bonobos, they
employ quite different strategies. Chimps are aggressive like
humans, patrol their territories and kill males from other tribes
of chimps. Just like those Christian soldiers and Muslim jihadis.

Bonobos are far smarter. When they meet another tribe, everyone
has sex, so the males have nothing to fight about really and are
too buggered and content to care :)

Note how the most fanatical Christians and Muslims have the most
distorted views about sex, perhaps you guys could learn something
from those bonobos :)

Coach, I went to the local library yesterday to borrow the one copy of the Qur'an, but fortunately it was out. I say 'fortunately' because it gave me time to cogitate more carefully (get pissed) and realise the error of my ways.
Not that there is anything wrong with knowing at least something about that which you (or I) dare to venture an opinion, of course.
Problem was that I was automatically re- acting.
The truly magnificent thing about your religion (I'm assuming by your remarks that you are a Christian) is that Jesus always stressed the need to be proactive (to use the modern term), rather than reactive.
That has always been the stumbling block, teaching my own children; and clearly I have never been Robinson Crusoe.
No matter how many times I have stressed the Golden Rule to them, still one or the other will come out with: "but she said" or "they did it first".
Jesus exhorted us to love our enemies, simply because it is the only way to break the vicious circle of action and reaction, or action and vengeance.
What we currently see all to often in the world today is "do unto others, before they get a chance to do unto you", or "do unto them because they did unto me".
To put it simply, if you want to take the moral high ground, you are going to have to stop acting like the people you seem to despise.
As to my religion, I'm probably even worse than a Muslim. I am -in your terms- a fallen Christian.
I prefer 'Secular Christian'. I hope I have demonstrated I believe very strongly in the moral and ethical teachings of the legendary Jesus; I just think all the current theories of God are at least 1500 years old, and as relevant as flat earth, or angels sitting around on clouds, playing harps.

Onya Yabby... yes, I smiled too with your analogies.

But I know you better than you think :)

No further comment on that.

GRIM.. fallen Christian ? we are all fallen mate.. the whole human race. But why stay there ? lets 'get up' again and restore that broken fallen relationship !

What I find, is that the more there is some little 'moral closet or special room' in our lives, the more we want to classify divine truth as 'legend/myth/stories/fantasyland' Its the only way we can avoid cognitive dissonance. (guilt) We have to transform our beliefs to be in harmony with our actions or desires. When scripture is subjected to the closest scrutiny, I seriously don't find much to be troubled about.

There is a Utopia to be had, even in this rather rapidly downward spiralling world. It is when our hearts are directed to our Creator through a relationship with Him in Christ, when He fills our minds, guides our thoughts, enables our wills, and renews our attitudes.

Sometimes I think we view life like the Dairy Farmer who has a farm on marginal land, but who did not factor in 'drought' to his projections, then when the crunch comes, begs the government for an exceptional circumstances sustaining handout.

Lets not be sucked in by the 'screen saver' attractions of 'the world' and then be obliterated by an eternal drought of spiritual darkness, for which there is no fix.

johnj, the quote came from television, almost sure it was Anzac day and I think the person who said it is a Dr Ameer , some name like that. If he was joking and I have never heard of a muslim joking, he picked a very bad day to make a crack like that.

Mickijo, in a pluralist society everyone is entitled to their own views, no matter how stupid. Therefore Dr Ameer (or whoever) should be entitled to spout whatever rubbish he likes. How far should we be allowed to take this freedom? To insult other people's views, particularly on the basis of their ethnicity, religion etc etc? I would hate to see someone arrested for talking or writing, but if they incite crime is it appropriate to send them to gaol?

If someone tells others to kill infidels/communists/rightists/greenies/vegetarians/gun owners (or whoever) then they have abused freedom of speech and should be appropriately punished. But someone who sees Australian values as "throw another steak on the barbie"? The only punishment they need is to be laughed at.

Incidentally on ANZAC Day I was at Prospect Reservoir picnic ground, which was really crowded. I went in search of a barbie to cook some steak and snags. All the barbies were full, but a nice arabic gentleman let me use the Webber he had brought with him and lent me some tongs. Australian values indeed!

Speaking about Anzac Day and Australian values... there was a good debate on SBS' Insight the other day and a muslim gentleman expressed his dualistic views about the Anzac's.

As an Australian born he wanted to commemorate and be sad for the dead soldiers - but as a muslim it was a day of victory he said. Then he ranted about the significance of his surname and his direct link to the Ottoman Empire...

Are we expecting the impossible from our muslim fellow citizens? For most to integrate anywhere is to reject their innermost antagonism of modern society (and peace).