Pericles,

Thanks for giving me the tick on the SIN-SINS definitions. And BTW I do not copy and paste – I use my own understanding of a topic and try to put into words. As Christians we are called to always be ready to give an explanation for our faith – and to do that “in love” (that’s the hard part…).

Which brings me to your “hypothetical scenario”.

The Christian view of killing at war and especially the blessing of the troops for the purpose of ‘killing’.

One of Jesus famous lines: render to Caesar what is Caesar’s. And from another passage: slaves obey your masters. Lead me to understand that there is a dichotomy of allegiance in the Christian value teaching.

We (Christians) live in this world but are not called to become part of this world. Our true “home” is God’s kingdom which we belong by becoming born-anew….

A Christian soldier is trained to kill as a duty to his/her country (Caesar). Which puts them in the same basket of all non-Christians soldiers.

Any soldier can object and desert violence on moral grounds.

The Padre has a greater dilemma I agree with you. I struggled with that problem. I came to the conclusion that unlike a coach in a sport context he/she is not there to promote aggression but to alleviate the suffering and keeping the spiritual line open at all times.

Being “on a mission from God” is where I draw the line. (I could make some justified concessions for legitimate self-defence). Nowhere in the New Testament do we see God asking for aggression.

So the point is intentionality. Killing as part of duty – serving one’s country and fellow citizen – this cannot be “sinning”.

Killing like in “murder” or “homicide” is a different matter; definitely “Sinning”.

I hear you say but war is premeditated murder too. Absolutely. Unfortunately it is part of the “fallen” world we live in. No peace in sight until Jesus’ return.

Forgiveness of sins is an act of true contrition. God forgives and FORGETS our sins IF we are in-Christ

you say a handful of extremists, tell that to the residents of maroubra and the surounding suburbs after youre lebanese muslim malitia turned up in a 100 or so car loads of scum stabbing innocent people and causing thousands of dollars of damage upon innocent peoples property all because a couple of their leb maltia mates copped a hiding that day for a change.The worst part is that the scum that caused the damage have probably never worked an honest day in their life but they are happy to screw people over that pay their pensions and unemployment benefits,because they are to lazy or retarded to go out and get an honest job for themselves.The fact is that muslims beleifs and morals differ so greatly from all other cultures and their beliefs and morals, that intergration with the exception of a small minority into any country on the planet, will always be impossible, muslims themselves have proven this many times,in many cases. Go back to where you race originated,stop using detention centres to sleaze you're way into the country, very few people want you here, and many more people don't,plus youre all just a huge burden on the australian economy alot of you can barely speak english and many more cannot you're the only religion that needs to have swimming hours set aside for you, look at the trouble you bring to any country you enter GO BACK TO WHERE YOU BELONG, roaming a desert riding cammels

Sorry, coach. Not good enough.

First of all, there are a few million dead people from more dozens of countries who would have more than a quibble with you calling the situation that I described "hypothetical".

Hypothetical is “what if”. There was nothing hypothetical about WW1 trench warfare

Furthermore, your position on "belonging" is a cop-out.

>>We (Christians) live in this world but are not called to become part of this world.<<

That is a strange claim. Presumably this allows you to avoid any and all responsibility on earth.

>>A Christian soldier is trained to kill as a duty to his/her country ... Any soldier can object and desert violence on moral grounds<<

Objection I can understand. There were some who chose this path, which is a tough call in the face of peer pressure, many of them not Christians but simply following their conscience.

Desertion I cannot understand. That is betrayal of your fellow man - but I guess if you are "not called to become part of this world", then this would mean nothing to you.

So back to the padre, I guess.

I'll concede that "mission from God" might be a little strong - it was supposed to be a satirical Blues Brothers reference, but obviously missed the mark.

Would you accept that he might instead have advised the boys that "God is on your side"? In the spirit of being their coach, naturally.

This would be the supreme hypocrisy, would it not? Especially since there was another padre in the opposing trenches giving exactly the same “coaching”.

However much you would like to wriggle out of it, there is a major disconnect between what your religion tells you is appropriate behaviour (thou shalt not kill) and what it practices. To disguise the padre's exhortations to murder fellow human beings as “coaching” is nothing but expediency.

As, of course, is claiming some form of differentiation between killing (on the battlefield) and murder. I doubt very much if the person killed particularly noticed the difference.

pericles:
So Christians fight so do moslems, the Christian Bible prophecises even bigger and better wars to come, as does the terrorist h/book.
Perhaps, just perhaps neither so-called Christians and definitely not pagans follow God as they should. Perhaps God has given us over to war to learn lessons which we will reap from in the future.
Please do not get holier than thou in this matter of war.
pericles none of us humans are any better than others, so-called Christians should be - real Christians though, by the grace of God are.
If there were no gutless, bloodthirsty, lying p/moslems you, even you would have to admit that this world would be a better place. Even the western nations with a far less than a perfect Christian Religion are so far ahead of any p/moslem or p/whatever other nation. smile, numbat

numbat, it's the blue pills on Wednesdays, mate.

Just to be clear, if there is any holier-than-thou going on here, it is the holy-rollers, not me. My mission, which I choose to accept, is to root out cant and hypocrisy in every corner of the blogosphere, and never to rest until the entire world makes a start at being honest with each other.

But among your stream of semi-consciousness there is one sentence (?) that could do with a jolly good parsing.

>>none of us humans are any better than others, so-called Christians should be - real Christians though, by the grace of God are.<<

Let me see if I have this right:

"none of us humans are any better than others"

Ignoring the appalling grammar, this presumably means that we are all at the same level of goodness.

"...so-called Christians should be [better than others]"

I suppose the rationale is that with the value-set they claim, "so-called" (soi-disant, perhaps?) Christians should rise above the pack, but they don't, for some reason unexplained in the text.

"...real Christians though, by the grace of God are [better than others]"

Numbat, you have already stated that this cannot be true, earlier in the same sentence - "none of us humans are any better than others" (ugh)

Or perhaps you would like us to believe that real Christians aren't human?

Like, the Raeleans were right all along, and Christians were created in laboratories by people from another planet who had mastered genetics and cell biology. Hmmm, that would explain much.

Word to the wise: don't talk drivel, numbat.

Oh! Great? and knowledgeable? pericles: What I wrote was perhaps a little beyond you as it verged onto the spiritual where as you are - well where you are. Or maybe you are above us all maybe you are the one we have been waiting for Mr/Mrs? perfection. Never mind petals I do know how you feel, by the way personal abuse is only used when one is a little thick and cannot come up with an answer - as yourself. Yes I know what is said about sarcasm, petals.
Please mighty one forgive this poor scribe should I have inadvertidly mis-spelled a word or used bad grammar. most humble and chastened numbat