Finally a sensible analysis of the whole ridiculous affair.

I agree mostly with what you say.

What then of today's news that Irvine has got 3 years for denying the holocaust.

The author rightly points out the anti-semitic portrayals of Jews in Arab newspapers, but neglects to mention offensive portrayals of Arabs and Muslims in Israeli publications. He also fails to mention the offensive and racist articles appearing in a publication with which he is associated, which has published offensive puerile pieces from Muslim-hating authors like Daniel Pipes and Mark Steyn. If I were to take an average piece from a Mark Steyn article, replace the words "Muslim" with "Jew" and "Islam" with "Judaism", I'd have something that would find pride of place in a Nazi publication. Before the author castigates others, he might want to set his own house in order.

I agree with Ted – there is more than simple “reactionary influences” at work.

AMSADL – I too noted the news of David Irvine

He was also banned from entering Australia for his views.

I believe he should not have been imprisoned in Austria nor banned from visiting Australia.

Irvine is the classic reason for never denying freedom of speech.
He, like the KKK and every other extremist and organisation who preach hatred and intolerance need to be allowed to vent.

Only by their venting do the tolerant of the world get to know what has to be challenged.
Prevent the vent and you push the “cause” underground where the damage it can do is far more serious than loonies with banners (eg IRA, El Qaeda cells etc).

It is said censorship treats the sage equal with the fool and freedom of expression allows the world to measure them each from the reasoning of their utterances.

Allow the cartoonists to blaspheme (if that is what their cartoons imply).

Allow us to see Irvine for the fool he is.

Deny the zealots of intolerance the opportunity to gag anyone or risk far more serious consequences than what is, at worse, the babblings of godless imbeciles.

It is more effective for countries like Syria and Iran to exercise what amounts to democratic trade embargoes against those who offend them. It is neither appropriate nor constructive to forment idiots into states of hysteria and call for the death and martyrdom of cartoonists who offend the sentiments of the religious (and often closed) minded.

Me thinks the author has sought to misrepresent broader Arab and Muslim portrayals of the cartoon debate. Whether it suits his partisan purposes or not, the author must acknowledge that a substantial number (if not the majority) of Muslims (including on this very website) have criticised & castigated the extreme reactions of a minority from Arab and Muslim majority countries. Yet this is mentioned nowhere in his article. Had the author studied a broader range of newspapers and publications, he would know religious scholars and lay Muslims condemned the violence. Instead, the author is intent on portraying all Arabs and Muslims as freedom-haters, itself a most anti-Semitic enterprise.

The main point here is that people will always find some way to divide us. What ordinary people have to do is find ways to unite us irrespective of race, creed or colour.

Irfan you raised a good point: since the cartoons were first published last year, overwhelming majority of Muslims chose peaceful protest in capital cities (like London) or Danish products boycott.

The recently orchestrated violence were condemned by all Muslims.

Speaking of freedom fo speech and in the very same week, the BBC website reported a 3 years prison for a historian for denying the holocaust in a book

- The despots who rule from Tehran to Tripoli are past masters at using external distractions to deflect attention from domestic oppression and misery.

Yeah. We'd never stand for that in the west.

"The economy's going down the toilet, Mr Rumsfeld!"

"Quick! We need a war! Let's say, oh, Iraq. Saddam must still have those WMD I personally sold to him in the eighties. Oh, and send a memo to George: Hussein said Christ was an idiot. That'll get us permanent support from the oval office".

Anti-Semitic quotes from the Prophet Muhammad’s Qur'an, and his Hadith:

The resurrection of the dead will not come until the Muslims will war with the Jews and the Muslims will kill them

The trees and rocks will say, "O Muslim, O Abdullah, here is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

Ignominy shall be their [the Jews'] portion wheresoever they are found...

And thou wilt find them [the Jews] the greediest of mankind....

Evil is that for which they sell their souls... For disbelievers is a terrible doom.

Taste ye [Jews] the punishment of burning.

Those who disbelieve Our [Allah'] revelations, We shall expose them to the fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment.

Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews.... We [Allah] have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom.

Allah hath cursed them [the Jews] for their disbelief

They [the Jews] will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say, but more violent is the hatred which their breasts conceal.

In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

And thou seest [Jews and Christians] vying one with another in sin and transgression and their devouring of illicit gain.... evil is their handiwork.

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends.

The most vehement of mankind in hostility [are] the Jews and the idolaters.

Fight against such of those [Jews and Christians] ... until they pay for the tribute readily, being brought low

Allah fighteth against them [the Jews]. How perverse they are!

Believers [muslims], …Proclaim a woeful punishment to those [rabbis and monks] that hoard up gold and silver and do not spend it in Allah's cause.... their treasures shall be heated in the fire of Hell....

They [the Jews] spread evil in the land....

[The Jews] knowingly perverted [the word of Allah]…

Irfan,I just read the same article that you did and came away with considerably different feelings about what I had just read.

I thought the central motif was not an attack on all muslims, nor a portrayal that they are all freedom haters or all anti-west.

I thought the article concisely pointed out that the cartoons were published quite some time before the violence, and that the vast majority of muslims didn't react to them at all, or barely at all.

I thought the article then went on to argue that the violence instead stemmed from the concerted hate campaign of a small group of powerful people with vested interests, and was not representative of any sort of wider muslim community.

In all of these thoughts I acknowledge that I may be mistaken, but I certainly left with the impression that the article was anti certain aspects of muslim leadership but not anti muslim.

It just goes to show that the Muslim faith is underpinned by the clerics and mullahs - the power players who play the emotions of the Muslim people. Free the Muslims to being free to practice their faith as they see it, then any perceived "offense" would not justify the clearly orchestrated destruction of property and lives.

In many respect Islam is superior to christianity as it showed when Europe was in the dark ages oppressed by the power players in Rome. Today, left behind the Western world, the mosques play on ignorance and use selections of the Koran to create a role for themselves.

Religion should free people, not enslave them like 7 centuries ago in Europe. (It's interesting how Mohammad lived 7 centuries after Christ suggesting this is the Muslim's dark ages waiting for a 'Martin Luther' to free them of their 'Rome').

Currently, even people like Irfan, talk of "offense". Is Allah so impotent that he cant take care of those offending infidels in Denmark without relying on the hordes on earth?

Alpal, that's also what i got from the article.
It goes to show that there are people in this world, Muslim, Christian, Atheist and Other, that like to stir up trouble and cause conflict, mayhem and destruction amongst people.
The problem is that people allow themselves to be stirred up and enraged making it easy for instigators to light fires.
The reaction to the cartoons is beyond the ridiculous now.

Coach,

Islam being anti-Semitic is another myth.
Why did Jews live and prosper within Muslim communities for the last 14 centuries?
Why did prophet Mohamed accept peace treaties with Jews and honoured it? Why did all the ayoubi & fatemite period (890AD onwards) had the great thinkers and physicians being Jews?
Last I checked Hitler (First name Adolph not Ahmad!) was a devout Christian taking revenge for Jesus blood.

Jews and Christians described as people of the book in our Holy Scripture. The Quran refers to many good believers amongst them.

The criticism for the Jews is in one of three categories:

- Some Jews who manipulate their own faith (around usury and interest: God claims that all interest is forbidden).
- Disbelief in all prophets (including Jesus).
- Accusing the Virgin Mary of adultery.

Christians released Jews from the blood of Jesus only 40 years ago.
The famous quote “his blood is on us & on our children” ceased to exist only under the Judeo Christian philosophy.
Sorry coachy, you were inspired by Pinocchio on this one!

Peace,

Sorry Irfan, but Israeli papers don't publish cartoons resurrrecting the ancient mythologies of ethnic hatred that have fueled pogroms, massacres and expulsions. There is nothing equivalent in Ha'aretz and Ma'ariv to the medieval portrayals of the blood libel and the hook-nosed evil Jew that populate the pages of al-Hayat al Jedida and other Arab newspapers. Ralph Waldo Emerson once wrote: "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen, philosophers and divines." Such hobgoblinhood does not become you.

Moreover, there is nothing peurile or bigoted about the views of Daniel Pipes, who goes to great pains to differentiate between most Muslims and an a fanatical jihadist minority that has, in his words, hijacked Islam for its own nefarious purposes.

Then you oh-so-predictably play the race card, employing one of the favourite epithets of the anti-war left in an disingenuous attempt to portray my organisation as a cabal of ethnic bigots. But as Kenny Rogers sang about card games, you gotta know when to hold’em, and know when to fold’em. It is entirely legitimate to criticise the jihadists who are waging war against the democratic world in the name of their warped interpretation of the Qur'an. Your cheap gambit of using the “r” word simply won’t wash. Or, as they say in the part of the world where I grew up: “that dog just won’t hunt.” Time for you to fold that hand, Irfan, and to move on to a more constructive argument that is based on fact rather than hysteria

Fellow human states,"The recently orchestrated violence were condemned by ALL muslims."
If ALL muslims condemned the violence--who was it that burned flags, buildings,smashed Embassies, threw rocks etc etc?
Dr Ameer stated that freedom of speech should not be permitted if it upset ONE FIFTH of the global population.
That means the other FOUR FIFTHS should kowtow to Muslim sensitivities. Does that sound right?
Islam is in its Dark Ages, it must stay there in chains of ideology or get itself out. Perhaps when enough of its people cry freedom then it will find the light.

No one on this thread should be duped by the so called moderation of Irfan and Fellow Human. Both of them deep down are fundamentalists in moderate clothing.

Anyone who dares speak about the true facts laying behind the capers and tricks of fundamentalist Muslims, is dubbed by Irfan as a Nazi or a Fascist. Mark Steyn now, who dared to write the truth about the demographics of Europe based on indisputable statistics, that threaten many counties of the Continent with extinction, as a result of the high birthrates of Muslims and their non-integration to the main culture of the countries they reside in, is also given the "judicial" appellation of a Nazi by our notary Irfan.

As I said in a previous post, "scratch the back of a Western educated Muslim and all the troglodyte views of their rigid religious upbringing will come on the surface." Both Irfan and Fellow Human are the embodiment of this kind of educated Muslims. And by the way, you must have noticed the "holy warrior", as the true intepreter of the Koran, Fellow Human, always ends his postings with a priest's blessing, "PEACË." This ruse is a perfect cover-up of his true leanings, and no one should fall a victim to his guile.

Blog: NEMESIS http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com

Where did the poor souls who burnt the Danish and other flags get the finances to buy and burn brand new flags ,did the local stores happen to stockpile the flags in anticipation of a flag burn and do they have others ready for another episode of pumped up trouble.

Remco, sorry but Martin Luther was not the "saint" nor "liberator" that he has been portrayed to be. Ever read his "The Jews and Their Lies"......interesting that Luther has been written of as:The Spiritual Ancestor of the Nazis". Also, what do you mean by the Dark Ages?

Fellow-Human: if Muhammed was such a decent, tolerant bloke why did he allow the massacre of Jewish males?.....Why does Saudi Arabia forbid the free exercise of religion other than Islam?....and Hitler was not a devout Christian. Sorry to disappoint you!

Fellow_Human,

You didn't have to respond to my previous post - these were quotes from your holy qur'an - unless you want to deny that also?

Guess what Pinocchio just told me:

As a matter of record, there was a well-documented, thriving relationship between the Arab/Muslim world and Nazi Germany, the most significant figure linking Hitler to the Middle East was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Hajj Amin el-Husseini.

Nazi ally, Hajj Amin el-Husseini, was Arafat's "hero" and ancestor.

Yasser Arafat shortened his name [Abd al-Rahman abd al-Bauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husseini] to obscure his kinship with the notorious ex-Mufti of Jerusalem

Hajj Amin Al Husseini (1895-1974) supported the Nazis, and especially their program for the mass murder of the Jews.

He visited numerous death camps and encouraged Hitler to extend the "Final Solution" to the Jews of North Africa and Palestine.

In 1943 the Mufti travelled several times to Bosnia, where on orders of the SS he recruited the notorious "Hanjar troopers," a special Bosnian Waffen SS company which slaugh-tered 90% of Bosnia’s Jews and burned countless Serbian churches and villages.

In 1946 he escaped to Egypt...

Amazing guy that Pinnochio. eh?

By satirising Islam, the Muslims in Western society were offered equality with every other religion. Needless to say, what Muslims want is not equality, but special privelege that would permanently prevent their religion from being criticised. But of all religions, it is Islam that is most in need of a little self introspection.

As a person who came from the wrong side of the tracks, I got to be able to recognise violent and immature people when I saw them. I got out of my Housing Commission flat as soon as I could afford it and I do not want Muslims or any other touchy, intellectually challenged individuals living next door to me anymore. Being permanently outraged and beyond all reason appears to be the default position of Muslims today.

The only good to come out of all of this is that even the pro Muslim, anti everything else, social regressive caste must be getting uncomfortable with the attack upon their favourite sacred cow by the people who's causes they have always championed

I think the author is spot on.

It is Irfans comments that irritate me in that he, Irfan was also calling for the islamic community to get its house in order. Exactly as the author is saying in his excellent article.

Perhaps Irfan should spend his energies explaining why it is that the Islamic fraternity can show some organisational skill in arranging this beat up in the first place. But a similar group which says it condems the violence etc, cannot stop it from occurring, even though it is blatantly obvious the riots are a "rent a crowd" affair. It would therefore appear that the so called moderates have no influence at all.

What a sick bunch they are. They represent less than 1.5 % of our population and yet they want everyone to bow to the smallest "cultural" nuance, no matter how trumped up it is.

Islam needs to learn to cope with Modernity.

Francis, I acknowledge that Martin Luther had his imperfections and incited attacks on the peasants etc. However, he did start a reformation and the basis for independence from the power of Rome tied up with religion. The Muslim world is screaming for their Reformation and now is the time in their evolutionare cycle.

Muslims are in a power play with some well monied clerics as evidenced by the 1 million dollar reward offered for the assassination of the Denmark journalists. It is not the muslims, but the power that is integrated into their religion, just like the days before Martin Luther. Where is their el Mart-in Lut Her??

Truth is stanger than fiction, so why are many of the posts on the Danish Cartoons based on Fiction, has anyone checked out who owns the newspapers that published the cartoons. I have, and found the majority of owners belonged to the same political/religious group I cant name them because the law protects them, the wrong people are being demonsrated against, I am not manipulating the facts, I challenge some one to publish the list of newspapers, plus the owners names, with their religious/political background. pigs might fly,

Boo hoo to a bunch of predictably irrelevant words and pictures a few thousand kilometres away in a newspaper whose language l cant even understand.

Yelling into the voidable void... What? Do newspapers do that? Gee, what a revelationary surprise.

Words and pictures makes you angry... what a larf.

Grow up and get a clue... cry babies.

Fellow Human,

I won’t swear to it, and I’m too lazy to find out for sure but, like Francis, I’m quite surprised to hear you (often) referring to Adolf Hitler as a “devout Christian”. I have always understood that Hitler was, at one time, interested in mysticism, but I’ve never seen his name connected with any religion, although I believe that he might have been a nominal Catholic.

Hilter might be your favourite non-Muslim bad guy, but you might like to do some checking if you are going to use him to beat Christians over the head with.

Leigh, I don't know the "truth" on that one either but a quick search of the web dug up some gems.

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated.

For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will. Therefore, let every man be active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his religious community and tries to butt into the other." -- Adolf Hitler, from Mein Kampf, translation by Ralph Mannheim. http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/dobson.htm

--

BERLIN, Feb. 23 (AP)--A campaign against the "godless movement" and an appeal for Catholic support were launched Wednesday by Chancellor Adolf Hitler's forces. http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/unknown/hitler.html

--

You will find it in Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."

In a Reichstag speech in 1938, Hitler again echoed the religious origins of his crusade. "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work."
http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hitler.html

To be fair there are also plenty of articles explaining why Hitler was not a christain but his own words paint a picture (assuming the quotes are not lies).

R0bert

A bit away from centre court, I admit, but didn't the Afghani Taliban (Muslims) destroy the Buddhist Bamiyah statues in Afghanistan, despite pleas even from the non-Buddhist West? I understand Buddhist regard very highly representations of him. Did the Buddhist world erupt like the current Danish cartoon conflgration? It seems to me that the Muslims concerned are being utterly hypocritical

The issue is not only freedom of Speech, but also the morality and character of the man at the center of debate. Yes there is no doubt that Muslims love and respect Mohammad.

Do non-Muslims have to love and respect him? Well, that depends on what he did and said.

That is the problem. A look at the historical records give us the following information:
1. The secular (Bizantine) records say that Mohammad and his followers murdered, tortured, enslaved and raped.
2. The Christian writers from the period say that Mohammed murdered, tortured, enslaved and raped
3. The Muslim accounts (hadiths) tell us that Mohammad murdered, tortured, enslaved and raped - and also did some very nice things.

So which of the three versions is true?

So, my dear Muslim OLOliners, please tell us why we should respect your prophet or your hurt feelings?

How about a little respect for the men, women and children whose lives were destroyed by Mohammad.

Shame!

John Kactuz

It looks as though both extremist camps were working to promote the cartoons for their own gains. They were only successful when both sides by their individual efforts brought the spread of the message to a critical mass. This took a little time to achieve, creating delay between the original publication and the world-wide effects..

In any case, the Irony Party of Australia's electronic pamphlet carries this speculative report on the issue DANISH CARTOONIST RETHINKS MOHAMMED CARICATURE PUBLICATION at http://www.ironyparty.org/newsfeed.htm#cartoon

REMCO SAID:

"In many respect Islam is superior to christianity as it showed when Europe was in the dark ages oppressed by the power players in Rome"

Yikes Remy.. I don't find it neccessary to take issue with most of what you said, but when I read this little gem my eyes bulged and that little proverbial vein on the side of my temple began to pulsate wildly :)

HISTORY and FAITHS
If I may offer a perspective, you seem to be confusing some periods of relative prosperity or progress with the essential core of the 2 faiths. Of no doubt there were some periods when the social and scientific aspects of the Islamic community may have outstripped those of 'Christendom' but that is no indication of the relative merits of the faiths.

NO COMPARISON
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself" and "He who knew no sin, became sin for us" is far more lofty and divinely final, than the whimsical, sexually indulgent, militarily rampaging and often murderous (check that poem b4 publishing) Mohammed. The faiths should be compared based on the central figures. But then, he who raised the dead, gave sight to the blind, healed the sick, made whole the paralyzed and most of all -forgave sin, should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as he who brutalized, sexually indulged, terrorized, and mass murdered. There is no comparison at all.

LUTHER
Luther, was a strong force for change in the established churches, but was also very anti semitic in his later life.

OPPORTUNISTIC CLERICS
..who stirred up trouble with fake alleged cartoons along with the milder real ones,
yes.. good to see this important point being brought out again.
Lets also realize that there are such people in Australia, who would use any excuse to radicalize nominal muslims.

U.S.A. MUSLIMS ARRESTED.(including citizens)

Preparing for 'Jihad' in Iraq and to assassinate Bush.

-again underlining that the larger the Muslim community, the more of them who are vulnerable to radicalization by extremists influencing them.

About IRFAN and FELLOW HUMAN

All participants on this thread must have noticed how garrulous both Irfan and Fellow Human were at the start of this forum. Irfan, within twelve minutes had posted two comments. The more laggard Fellow Human, within just over two hours, also, posted two comments. However, after the factual and derisive reply of Ted Lapkin, and my humble exposure of them as being fundamentalists in their thinking, both Irfan and Fellow... all of a sudden disappeared from the screen of this forum.

One would have expected them to respond immediately and to have had the courage to defend their position or to have attacked their "bigoted traducers". But no, they did the opposite. Like poltroons they ran away from the "battlefield" of the discussion on this forum. Was it because they were bereft of arguments?

Themistocles, It is more likely they haven't responded because they are only allowed 2 posts on any one article in each 24 hours.
Regards
Susan Prior - editor

Robert,

Thanks for that. I also read recently that historians had yet to make up their minds on whether or not Hilter thought of himself as a true Christian. He could have had his tongue firmly in his cheek, of course, as he made his religious pronouncements.

There is one thing we can say,though: it was people who did think of themselves as Christians who got rid of Adolf. The Muslims don't seem to be too keen on ridding the world of their renegades.

Leigh, are you suggesting Josef Stalin was a Christian? And has Recep Erdogan (the Muslim PM of Turkey, a NATO member) suddenly sworn allegience to the Pope?

See you all in 24 hours!

SusanP,

Thanks for clarifying to Themistocles.

Coach, (Leigh & Francis)

You missed my point: persecution of Jews over centuries was by fundies in the Christian camp (even before the Spanish conquest). There were Nazi sympathisers among Arabs (Muslims and Christians) mainly due to British colonialism. It was more of the ‘enemy of my enemy is my friend’ type of thing.
Re-read Robert comment on Hitler: he was a devout Christian and all his quotes were Biblical. Go to the German government archives website and re-read his speeches since April 1922. Leigh argument whether he was true or untrue Christian is irrelevant because it’s valid to all religions.

Francis,

In previous postings I refer to growing up in a Muslims majority country where religious freedom was the society backbone. I believe all people should be free to believe or practice what they want.
I publish what I am for or against on OLO & my blog: www.musliminsight.blogspot.com

Themistocles,

Re Mrs Vale article, I pointed you to factual statistics on the ABS website that Australia likely to become Buddhist then Hindu. If you have facts supporting your opinions please share them.
Fundies are those who do not accept others for who they are and what they are. Myself and other posters like Irfan have never attacked or commented on anyone else faith or beliefs. Even the more Orthodox Muslim posters like Dawood just comment on misrepresentations of Islam.
If your definition of a Muslim is an ex-Muslim or a non-practising Muslim, there is little point in dialogue.

Can you explain how do you view a nation-building dialogue with Australian Muslims?

Kaktuz and Boaz,

Does it make sense that the Quran set standards on ethics, morals and values and the prophet character is what you described? Why credible historians like Muir, Sale (and Bernard Shaw) find him as a great character?
Check his farewell sermon on www.wikipedia.com
Anyway, lets just say, that our truth is different than what you were told. I don't judge you or your faith, can you do the same?

Peace,

R0bert - brilliant post re: Hitler - loving your work, mate.

SusanP - thank you - thermo's (anyone ever watch Thermo-man?) response emphasises how desperate are the anti-mossies.

Fellow_Human - another composed and appropriate post - you set a high standard.

Back to thread - I feel for the bulk of Muslims - vilified from the outside and manipulated from within. This 'delayed reaction' to the cartoons reveals a dark conspiracy which is trying to prevent any cultural bridge from being erected between faiths.

In all things, balance.

BOAZ_David. One can make valued judgements about the merit of one religion over another. I guess I did that when saying the Muslims held civilisation over during the Dark Ages in Europe in science, maths, literature and simple awareness beyond the crippling strangling mythology of the Christian church then.

The fact remain, power and religion are tightly interwoven in Islam and inevitably, it becomes a power struggle dressed up as religious issues that drives the rioting hordes.

Islam is in its Dark Age exactly where Christianity was seven centuries ago (noting Islamt started seven centuries on from Christianity).

Islam is screaming for a reformation that divorces power from religion and perhaps which sees some accommodation (eg. women's rights) to reflect today's world.

First things first. I want to thank Susan Prior for reminding me of the 24 hour limit and pointing to me indirectly of my serious mistake. Therefore, as a result of the latter, I want to extend my apologies to both Irfan and Fellow Human for comparing them to poltroons. However, I still consider them to be bereft of arguments. But back to "unfinished business".

Fellow Human

The statistics you provided about the number of Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims, to make your case that, to quote you, "Australia is likely to become Buddist or Hindu first", than Muslim, are totally inapplicable to the issue. What is crucial is not the PRESENT number of affiliates to the different religions, but the FUTURE ones. Moreover, you demolish by your own logic your argument.(Bad logic is not the characteristic of a "strategic thinker".) As in your opening you are saying that "the most common religious affiliation of immigrants is Christianity". If you add to this that Australians in their great majority are Christian, then Australia would neither become Buddhist or Hindu, but it would remain unassailable Christian.

If you were not disingenuous or doltish in the presentation of these statistics for the purpose of using them as a ruse to make your case that Australia was not threatened by a Muslim inundation in numbers, you would have presented statistics about he BIRTHRATES of all immigrants and Australians. It's the latter that will DETERMINE the future demographics of the country. And in these demographics Muslims, as a result of their extraordinary high birthrates, will hold the primal position.

Blog: NEMESIS http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com

Themistocles, can you please post the assumptions and maths you are using to support your view that Australia is in danger of being overrun by muslims.

I don't see how it can happen across the country but am willing to have an honest look at supportable assumptions and maths which show a genuine issue.

R0bert

May be it aint a number's game. There are 40 virgins waiting for the next belt explosive martyr. Lucas Heights was evidently being scrutineered by a group recently arrested in Sydney. It isnt numbers. The minority can win just like the Vandals that sacked Rome.

Ted, you've categorised my comments as "left-wing political correctness" instead of addressing them on their merits. I can only presume you have no response to what I said.

I realise it may be hard for you to accept the fact that Israeli papers have published flagrantly anti-Arab and anti-Muslim (as well as anti-Ethiopian) material. You must understand, however, that my claims of racism in Israeli papers have been confirmed by Israelis themselves.

I note your defence of Daniel Pipes but not Mark Steyn. Can I presume you agree with me that his material does deliberately cast aspersions on all Muslims in similar fashion to Nazi propagandists casting aspersions on all Jews?

I wonder if you feel Muslims have a right to feel upset and angered by the cartoons, and whether they have the right to express this peacefully. Further, do you acknowledge that in fact the majority of Muslims have made peaceful protests. Or are you suggesting that the bulk of Muslim protestors have been violent?

Finally, do you support to the views of others such as mickijo, Leigh, coach and kaktuz? Do you agree that the views and actions of a minority of Muslims should be ascribed to the Muslim mainstream?

You are quite slick, Irfan. But not quite slick enough.

You assert that I 'categorize your comments as “left-wing political correctness”', employing quotation marks to convey the impression that those words were mine. Only problem is that that language never came out of my keyboard, as even a cursory perusal of my posting will conclusively demonstrate.

The false attribution of a quote is a proverbial hanging offence by the canon of journalistic ethics. And I can’t imagine that the legal profession would look any more kindly towards people who simply make things up as they go along. Not a good look, Irfan.

As far as addressing your comments on their merits, the problem is that I didn’t find anything particularly meritorious in your argument. Case in point, your lame attempt to rebut my assertion that no honest comparison can be made between the Arab and Israeli media when it comes to the question of ethnic bigotry. You say that your claims about Israeli papers 'have been confirmed by Israelis themselves.'

Which Israelis? Which papers? I named the official newspaper of the Palestinian Authority, al-Hayat al-Jadida, as a particularly egregious purveyor of Judeophobic bile. And I would be more than happy to produce more chapter and verse examples from that paper and others. In response, all you can adduce in support of your contention is an a pathetically non-specific reference to some anonymous Israelis. Sorry, but that dog just won’t hunt.

I’ll tell you what. Instead of hashing this out in this forum, with all its attendant limitations (no more than two postings each 24hrs), why don’t we debate this question in person before a live audience? I’m sure we could agree on a mutually acceptable debate venue, format and neutral moderator. As Animal Mother famously said in Full Metal Jacket: 'You talk the talk. Do you walk the walk?'

So there we are. The gauntlet has been cast. All that remains to be seen is whether you have the gumption to take the Pepsi challenge.

You know how to get in touch with me. I await your response.

Susan

I'm still awaiting Irafan's definition of Multi-culturalism from about a month ago. Some sixty possible posts.

Keith

IRF

in spite of some of our rather 'passionate' posts, please be assured that at least I, appreciate your usually balanced writings, in spite of you often calling me an armchair nazi. Here is a donut :) (if ur enemy is hungry, feed him)

The one point I wish to take issue with this time is:

you asked:
*Can I presume you agree with me that his material does deliberately cast aspersions on all Muslims in similar fashion to Nazi propagandists casting aspersions on all Jews?*

CAST ASPERSIONS. Irf, have you ever noted the way the Catholic Church is portrayed in the media ? "They are all dirty old men who molest children" kind of thing. How about Christians.. "They are all a bunch of loonies"
They are the messages trotted out almost daily by for example Green Left Weekly.

I don't for one moment suddenly say that "All Muslims" are terrorists because of a silly cartoon, and I doubt many others would either.

But when I see THOUSANDS of 'ordinary' muslims trashing Embassies, and people among the crowd of ordinary muslims who state on camera "If I meet the man who did the cartoons, I will KILL him, with a shotgun" ....I start to think .....

When I see all the signs "You will come crawling when the Mujahadin come roaring" etc.. (in UK), I start to think "Most Muslims are prone to violence"

On the evidence, its not an unreasonable conclusion.

All holders of such signs, as I said in the other post would be OFF TO BAXTER indefinitely without trial until they publically apologised and demonstrated contrition and obedience to our laws.

Ted Lapkin

Why couldn't you simply answer Irfan's questions:

"Finally, do you support to the views of others such as mickijo, Leigh, coach and kaktuz? Do you agree that the views and actions of a minority of Muslims should be ascribed to the Muslim mainstream? "

Instead of the 'big' 'manly' challenge? Seems to me that you are hedging.

Boaz - there was no protest over the cartoons originally, there has been deliberate action to foment trouble by a minority who have a vested interest in creating division. I do not believe that these trouble makers are sincere Muslims, any more than I believe that people like Leigh, coach et al are sincere Christians. Why? Because all these extremists preach hate for one another. And I have to include you Boaz, because you speak to Irfan as an enemy, otherwise you would not have written "(if ur enemy is hungry, feed him)". Have you any idea just how offensive you can be?

You always excuse outright hatred as an expression of 'passion'. My ex husband used to say that he only hit me because he cared so much.

In all things, balance.

RObert, sorry for the delay. I was waiting for my "allowance" to post. I don't have any official statistics for Australia. But here are some statistcs from a seminal article written by the brilliant journalist Mark Steyn on The Wall Street Journal on the issue that deadly demographics threaten Europe. In the Netherlands (this is not from the article) almost 30% of children under the age of thirteen are Muslim. The eminent English scholar of Islamic studies Bernard Lewis states, that Europe by the end of the century will be Muslim. For a scholar of his calibre to make such a statement, I think one can safely assume that he has indisputable statistical evidence in his possession. Now to some statistics.

In 1970, the developed world had a share of the global population of 30% to 20% of the Muslim world. By 2000, each had about 20%. Also fertility rates from Somalia,6.91, Niger, 6.83, Afghanistan, 6.78, Yemen, 6.75, all of them Muslim countries. From these statistics, I think you can make a reasonable extrapolation of what lies in store for many European countries, including Australia, whose overall fertility rates are about 1.5, which do not even cover the replacement fertility rate, i.e., the number you need for merely a stable population. Also I've a sample of statistics of my own. Residing in Brunswick, Melbourne, which is equivalent to Lakemba where many Muslim families live, I start conversations with many men and women and ask them how many children they have. The answer is in most cases, in the range of between 7-10. With a modicum of imagination, one can also foresee what the future demographics of Australia will be.
Sorry that I can not give you more ample statistics.
There is another article by Mark Steyn titled "Salute Donna Vale", published on The Australian on Feb. 16.

Themiscoles,

Thanks for the apology although no offence taken.
What I quoted was not my opinion but quoted as is from the Australian Bureau of Statistics website summarised as follows:

1. That Australia is Christian majority.
2. That overwhelming majority of migrants intake are Christians.
3. That the highest growth rate in Australia for a religion is in fact Buddhism.

Basic maths: Low buddhism base in 96 + low buddhism immigration from 96-2001 + 79% increase in buddhists in 2001 = many Australians are migrating from other religions to Buddhism.

There is no statistics on birth rate by religion although my assumption (until i see something else) is all Orthodox Muslims will probably have the same number if not less than Catholics or Jews.

Also, you seem to be linking ethnicity to religion which is not accurate: there are Arabs of Muslim parents going to other religions or no religion as much as Anglo from Christian background going to Islam & Buddhism. Put simply, no one can really tell what the future will look like. (Although Boaz and Kaktuz are memorising the book of revelation and Lord of the Rings :-)).

Peace.

Scout:

The question is a silly digression from the real issue at hand. I speak for myself. Period. And to deny that extremism in the Islamic world constitutes a sui generis problem that is far more dangerous than other forms of religious zealotry is to view the world through PC blinders.

And for the record, I like Mark Steyn - a lot. Contrary to Irfan's contention, Steyn isn't a racist because as the columnist accurately points out, Islam is not a race, but rather a multi-ethnic and multi-racial faith tradition.

Racism is the contention that personal characteristics, talent (or lack thereof) and behaviour are totally or predominantly determined by genetic factors. That has nothing to do with criticising the backwardness of Arab culture when it comes to its dearth of democratic values or the treatment of women.

The socio-economic stagnation that has afflicted the Arab world for centuries is certainly not pre-ordained by DNA. There is nothing in the Arab genetic make up that pre-determines that the total GDP of the entire Islamic Middle East (oil revenues included) is less than that of Spain. But it is objectively undeniable that the Arab world suffers from self-imposed cultural impediments that have brought it to its current sorry social, economic and political state. But don't take my word for it. Read the UN Human Development Program's 2002 report on the Arab world. It's all there, in black and white.

Cultural criticism has nothing to do with racism, regardless of how liberally that political epithet is thrown around by the Left.

So call me a culturalist, if you must. But I proudly stand with those who condemn honour killings and female genital mutilation (done to over 70% of Egyptian women) as primitive acts of barbarism. These are not quaint foreign customs that we are bound by the strictures of cultural relativism to respect.

But now I am approaching the 350 word limit on postings to the forum. Which brings me to reiterate my challenge to Irfan. Let's debate these issues in a less restrictive environment.

I'm game. Are you?

If anyone wonders why my passion is usually at 'red hot' levels ....
they just need to read this, considering I have relatives by marraige in a similar area with similar spiritual dynamics at play.... held back fortunately by a reasonable Government...thus far.

http://www.cirp.org/news/morningherald01-27-01/

Cheers

Bernard Lewis – definitely eminent, but often polarises. This is a balanced report on his prolific work:

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/?040614crbo_books

“LOST IN TRANSLATION
The two minds of Bernard Lewis.
IAN BURUMA

Why did Bernard Lewis ignore his own counsel that the West should proceed with caution in the Middle East, that democracy cannot be a quick fix, and that our proposed solutions, however good, are “discredited by the very fact of our having suggested them”? Some put it down to Zionism: he is said to be part of the Israeli lobby, and his aim is to make Israel safe. Lewis does not hide that he is sympathetic to Israel, not only because he happens to be Jewish but because he thinks Israel is a relatively civilized, democratic country in a very rough neighborhood. ……….. But then, judging from Lewis’s own writings, “I would rather have been a Jewish subject of the Ottoman Empire than an Arab in territories occupied by Israel.”

>>>>

Mark Steyn is a humourist or satirist depending on your POV. Not to be taken too seriously and hardly brilliant.

His website: http://www.marksteyn.com/

Now everyone can make up their own minds about Mark Steyn.

>>>>

Boaz, I read your link, absolutely abhorrent. We live in terrible times. However, are you suggesting that this behaviour is typical of ALL Muslims?

After all, the Muslim extremists were investigated by a MUSLIM governor. Just as paedophile priests should be by Christians.

The Muslim Governor of Maluku, Saleh Latuconsina, this week led an investigation team to the island of Kesui, 420 kilometres south-east of Ambon City, after receiving an official report in late December confirming villagers there converted to Islam against their will and were circumcised. ………………. Governor Latuconsina………….. is understood to have been shocked when he read a report of events on Kesui<<<

BTW Passion doesn’t excuse vilification, disrespect and the denigration I and others receive on OLO.

If your behaviour is justified by your ‘red-hot levels’ then is it not also justified by Muslims for their passionate beliefs?

For some balance – Christians behaving badly:

http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2002_06_09/story_610.asp

In all things, balance.

My Dear brother in humanity Boaz david,

Its not red hot passion but rather self aggrevating excercise you are putting yourself through. if you trap yourself on these websites and articles you are likely to cause yourself sadness & fear.

A quote I borrowed from Astrayan on American Muslims:

59% of American Muslims have at least an undergraduate education, making them the most highly educated group in America. Muslim Americans are also the richest Muslim community in the world, with four in five earning more than $25,000 a year and one in three more than $75,000. They tend to be employed in professional fields, and most own stock, either personally or through 401(k) or pension plans. In terms of civic participation, 82% are registered to vote, half of them as Democrats." http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007151

There are good, bad & ugly everywhere BD. Go & have some muslim friends (I mean genuinely without trying to convert them). You probably won't believe it but I am worried about your blood pressure.

Peace,

There was an extremely vivid photo on the 'net of American Muslims protesting the cartoons recently. They were called ,"The Islamic Thinkers"
And the placards and expressions displayed really underscored exactly what they were thinking.
Had it been up to me, the lot would have been run out to the airport and waved off.
There was nothing moderate there.

Scout seems to have convicted those accused......judge, jury and executioner! What a way to save heaps of money: sack the highly paid judges, get rid of the expense of juries and just employ Scout! I note it dates back to 2002......what has happened to the accused since? Whatever happened about "innocent until proven guilty....."? Or is it Scout's anti-Catholic bigotry getting in the way.

FELLOW HUMAN

You are incurably dishonest! "Australia is likely to become Buddist or Hindu first", is NOT a quote from The Australian Bureau of Statistics, as you claim, it's YOUR OWN. Go back to your post on 16 of February on the topic "Aborting Muslims from society", and you will see it with your own eyes. Also, in my post to RObert, above yours, I've given some statistics on demographics, which you chose to ignore, maybe because they were unfavourable to your position.

But it's well known that Muslims TRADE on lies and deception, and YOU prove this to be correct. By saying this I know I'm committing sacrilege in the eyes of the PC priesthood. But it's a great pleasure for me to rattle their bigotry.

Blog: NEMESIS http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com

Ted,

You are deliberately avoiding the issues I have raised. You are trying to use pseudo-conservative rhetoric to a former endorsed Federal Candidate of the Liberal Party of Australia.

The longer you avoid answering my questions, the more absurd and racist you will look, and the more it will reflect on the organisation you claim to represent.

I somehow doubt that an organisation whose patron was the (now deceased) barrister who argued the Mabo case for indigenous Australians would be impressed to see you not take the opportunity to immediately and unequivocably distance yourself from racist and extremist rhetoric posted in support of your argument.

Ron Castan QC would be turning in his grave if he could read these forums.

Irfan:

For a “former endorsed Federal candidate of the Liberal Party of Australia,” you seem to be quite partial to that common Leftist practice: the promiscuous overuse of the “r” word as a favourite political epithet. Perhaps that explains why you lost – you were running for the wrong party.

And as for your comment about my employment of “pseudo-conservative rhetoric” – wow, you really know how to hurt a guy. I must protest that there’s nothing at all “pseudo” about my conservatism. I believe that free market capitalism is the most effective economic system for raising general living standards and enriching the broadest majority of the population. I believe in small government, low taxes, minimal regulation and a strong national defense. I believe that rights in a democracy must be complemented by the concept of personal responsibility, and that contemporary society has erred by excessively expanding the former to the point where it encroaches on the latter. And I believe that the West is engaged in en guerre a l’outrance with a global jihadist movement that is bent on imposing a new Caliphate at the point of an AK-47 barrel.

And as for your assertions that I’m ducking your questions, au contraire. I have stated that neither Pipes nor Steyn are racists by any reasonable definition of the term, and that I agree with much of what they say. So no, there is nothing Nazi-like about either of them.

I have stated that I speak my mind clearly and I see no real need to comply with your arbitrary demand that I disassociate myself from anonymous people with whom I am entirely unacquainted. “mickijo, Leigh, coach and kaktuz?” Don’t know them. My views are what are at issue here. You should address them and stop digressing into irrelevancies.

But now I approach the end of my 350 word quota. I suggest we continue this discussion in a less restricted format.

Time to sh-t or get off the pot, Irfan. Ignoring the challenge to debate won’t make it go away. Do you have the courage of your convictions, or not?

Ted,

I'm not sure about what things are like in the US or Israel. But in Australia, conservatives don't regard demonising the faiths and cultures of others as being inherently conservative. They also prefer to disassociate themselves from racists at the 1st possible opportunity.

Conservatives have historically been at the forefront of fighting racism and slavery. If you find anti-racist attitudes to be unconservative, I suggest you consider joining One Nation.

I would be happy to discuss matters with you, in private or public. Even if your goal is to continue making spurious generalisations about Muslims which you refuse to see made about Jews.

If someone made the same comments about Jewish people, only an anti-Semite would agree with them. As a Muslim and as a conservative, I would have to condemn such anti-Semitic sentiments.

Your refusal on 2 occasions to condemn the comments made by some people on these forums leads me to believe you agree with them. Once again, I invite you to tell me what you think of the views they have expressed. I am not asking you what you think of them as people. I am asking about their stated sentiments.

Will you take up the challenge? Or will you continue to duck for cover? Now is your opportunity to show readers here what your precise views really are. Stop hiding behind rhetorical devices. Answer the questions.

Irfan

Irfan Nothing I read in Ted Lapkin’s article “demonised Islam”.

Ted’s concluding observations for instance,
“The real offence to Arab sensibilities should come, not from Copenhagen but from the heartland of the Middle East where autocrats use and abuse their own people.
It is time for Arab political culture to grow up.”

refers not to any religion or faction of any religion and does not even demonize “Arabs” but makes fair observation and criticism of the processes of non-democratic government which pervades the middle-east.

Ted has asked you too to debate the issue and offered you fair opportunity to respond, yet you avoid engaging on that issue.
As for condemning the postings of others. If Ted had acclaimed someone else’s comment, then you might have a point but you are being completely and totally unreasonable and it would be totally inappropriate for anyone to be held accountable for what another person wrote and expected to disclaim it simple because you demand it.

I have gone back over your posts on this thread.

You have not condemned the ravings of the lunatic Muslim Extremist who fomented the recent flag and building burning riots in the idle east, all you have done is act as an apologist – so before you go asking something of someone else should you not seek to lead and set the example?
So Ifran- when are you going to condemn the actions of Muslim fanatics and when are you going to stop “ducking for cover” from Ted’s proposal?

To Irfan

Bigmal was very perceptive. He pointed out that there is a fundamental contradiction in your stated position. Your previous article posted on OLO was a model of Muslim liberal progressive thought where you quite plainly suggested that Muslims must stop acting like rabid fanatics over any perceived slight to themselves and take a more mature approach to criticism of their religion.

Along comes Ted Lapkin who, with valid reason, strongly criticises the most objectional aspects of your religion which are fundamentally at odds with western liberal thought, and you start jumpimg up and down with red faced apoplexy.

So far, you are the only Muslim journalist that I considered might have a reasonable point of view. But I have always wondered if your platitudes towards Western values were simply a ruse to lull the gullible like Sneakypeter into thinking that Muslims can be reasonable and can accept western thinking.

But you just blew it mate. My tendency now will be to regard your liberal Muslim views with increased scepticism and consider that they are simply a cover for other agendas.

Anybody got any poporn? An Irfan/Lapkin stoush. This is starting to get interesting.

Themistcoles,

Sounds you don't understand commas and inverted commas as well.

Reason why I didn't comment on your stats were as follows:

- You are commenting on nationalities birth rate and not religions (North & West Africans are Christians and Muslims).
For example 3 decades ago Nigeria had majority Muslims now they are almost 50/50 split Muslims/ Christians. Please explain!

- You are ignoring death rates in African countries and life expectancy. Nothing personal but you are always a one sided person in your comments.

- Coming back to Australian statistics: if you don't understand how to analyse numbers then talk to an analyst or just don't talk numbers. Put simply, if the majority of a country is follow religion A, the Higest migration intake in religion A (B, C, D kept at minimum), the highest growth is in religion B over 5 years period (birth rates are irrelevant in 5 years). then the trend in high growth is religion B (not A, C or D).

- When you claim numbers you need to compare to something: I asked you for a comparison of number of kids per household (Muslims/ Catholics/ Jews / Buddhist for example. Then you can have an unemotional analysis of demography and growth.

Sorry go and study maths or statistics before you get into a topic.

Irfan:

You rather haughtily require that I disassociate myself from an arbitrarily compiled list of people of whom I have never heard. And my response is that your demand is a digression from the issue at hand, and thus pure taurine excrement. You assert that my refusal “to condemn the comments made by some people on these forums leads me to believe you agree with them.” But there is a far simpler way to find out what I believe or disbelieve: read what I myself say.

I am a prolific writer with dozens of newspaper and magazine pieces that clearly articulate my views. So why should I cooperate with your transparent polemical gambit to link me with persons whom I wouldn’t be able to pick out of a police line up? My own paper trail is pretty damn thick, and I challenge you to find anything in what I have written that can be fairly categorized as racist. But of course, you can’t, so you inject irrelevancies into the discussion in a disingenuous attempt to tar me with guilt by association to persons with whom I have never associated.

All in all, it’s a pretty pathetic line of argument. But I tell you what, in order to sweeten the debate deal that I am proposing, I promise to answer all your questions about these anonymous people and their views when we meet in person for our clash of the titans.

Agreed?

You know where to find me. I’ll expect to hear from you next week regarding the details of our upcoming debate. We need to hammer out the title and terms of reference of the event, as well as such mundane logistical details as time, venue and moderator

Isn't it about time us Westerners woke up to ourselves, that it is Western intrusion and injustice by us in the Middle East that has been the root cause of Islamic hatred towards us - as Mubarak of Egypt told a British reporter. Made worse, of course, by us calling them those bloody usless dirty wogs during WW1 and 2.

Admittedly, Islam has seen far more enlightening days, which indeed greatly helped the barbarian West become whom we now are. So maybe even with tongue in cheek, we should give a little praise now and again, not stoking up the fires of increasing Islamic hatred, as the Danes should have have known they were up to.

To be sure we must back little Israel, but then again we must agree that if a democratic vote was held over the whole Arab Middle East, the Israelis might need to shift to what we might call Jehovah's New Promised Land, the US of A.

Sorry, fellers, but can't help feeling this way.

George C, WA - Bushbred

Ted,

I don't have time to go through hundreds of pages of your writing. But I have read your attempts to attribute the acts of small groups to 1.2 billion Muslims in the past.

All I asked of you was that you confirm whether or not you agreed with the sentiments (as opposed to the appearance of hair colour) of certan named people that you will have read on this forum in relation to your present article and my articles. Your refusal to do so speaks volumes.

As for your invitation to engage in a mass debate, I don't have time growing on trees at the moment.

It makes me sad to say that from what I have read of your material here and elsewhere, you have tried to generate hatred and resentment toward Arab and Muslim peoples. Your writings seek to create gulfs as opposed to building bridges.

It seems that you are more interested in grinding the axes of a fringe minority of extreme-right Israelis and their neo-con fruitloop allies. Australians of all faiths would rather you leave your Middle Eastern polemics in Israel.

Compared to all the other wonderful Jewish people I have met over the years, your literary antics reflect poorly on your faith and your community. It is little wonder so many of my Jewish associates assure me your views do not represent mainstream Jewish thinking.

G-d help you.

Irfan:

Pity you are such a wus.

And what a non sequitur: you've read my stuff, but you don't have time to read my stuff.

You demonstrate neither the courage of your convictions, nor even a semblance of logical consistency in your polemic.

You have been tested and found wanting in the seriousness department. The only word that applies is pathetic.

Ted,

My convictions are built upon 36 years of living in what I believe is the best country on the planet. Our Australian values of tolerance and liberty, as espoused in Peter Costello's recent speech, are matched by few Western nations on earth.

The only convictions I have found in your writings are ancient Middle Eastern hatreds that don't belong in our pluralist Australia.

I'm like to think that in person you are a nice enough chap. But your written word, rarely if ever having something positive to say about those against whom your axe grinds, has proven a disappointment.

Some fringe sectors in Israel may regard demonising Arabs as acceptable. Perhaps once you have lived a few more years in Australia, you will learn we Aussies don't find it acceptable here.

No doubt there are people in the Arab world who need to grow up. But to attribute the actions and attitudes of a minority to all people of a particular race and/or religion is infantile and unAustralian. I hope in time you will come to realise this.

In the meantime, I leave you to your prejudices.

Ma salameh. Shalom. Peace.

Irfan

Ted Lapkin,

What happened to the good old "I fix my own backyard, you fix yours"?
I am yet to see articles by the likes of yourself about Israeli right-wing and its role in Hamas coming to power.. (There was nothing on google).

Isn't the PLO corruption and the Israeli "Pal & Estein" approach is what got Hamas to power today?

Agree that adressing islamists danger is important. But isn't all religious motivated greed & violence bad or are you being selective?
Where have you been when islamists were blowing up other Muslims since Sadat's time?

I think your internet research skills are in need of a little polish.

RADIO NATIONAL 'Perspective'
9 August 2005 - Ted Lapkin

[This is the print version of story http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/perspective/stories/s1433770.htm]

Murder is murder. And regardless of who is the perpetrator and who is the victim, the unjustified killing of human beings must be unequivocally condemned and severely punished.

The repugnant act of slaughter committed by an Israeli army deserter named Eden Natan-Zada is no exception to this rule. The premeditated attack by a Jewish extremist against innocent people in the Arab village of Shfaram was an act of terrorism, pure and simple. In this spirit, the Israeli government denied Natan-Zada a funeral with military honours on the grounds that a murderer was 'unworthy of being buried next to the fallen soldiers of Israel’s wars.'

Eden Natan-Zada was a follower of the late and unlamented radical rabbi Meir Kahane, whose Kach movement was outlawed on account of its racist anti-Arab ideology.

Kahane’s disciples today constitute a numerically insignificant splinter group on the far-right fringes of Israeli politics and society. They dream of transforming Israel into a biblically literalist Jewish theocracy from which the Arab population has been purged. The overwhelming majority of Jews, both within Israel and throughout the Disapora, regards Kahanists as an abomination and as an embarrassment to their faith.

While a moral obscenity in and of itself, the terrorist murder of innocents in Shfaram has a larger dimension as well. There was method to Natan-Zada’s madness...

Read the whole piece at:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/perspective/stories/s1433770.htm

Murder is murder, you say.

So what do you have to say about Israel's direct involvement in the Sabra and Chatila massacres? Or are some forms of murder less evil than others?