Col,
Please let us know where we can get Government funds to build Churches. I haven't become aware of such a scheme and we need to build a new Church. Sounds to me like the same old misinformation agenda against the Churches.

I put my children through a Parent controlled religious school and it cost me 6% of my gross income. Did I complain? No! I saw the benifits of the expense in the enhancement of their attitudes. I am not happy to fund an unjust war, abortion or genocide as you might be. The murder or abuse of infants is an action denounced by Jesus.

Scout I probably agree but then that is not a woman right to her own body: "Philo - how about vasectomies for the males who take advantage of drug addicted women?" Are you admitting that someone else is abusing or controling her right of choice?

Col, you never tire of contradicting your own babble…Hitler killed for much the same reasons as anti-lifers do now. The unborn, you argue - don’t fit, are unwanted, are disabled, their ‘spirit’ is ‘damaged’, they’re inconvenient…he was hardly pro-life either.

Philo “Sometimes society must impose values on persons for the good of the society.”
Meg1 “there are times when people choose to make decisions that harm themselves and others…society has to care enough to protect the person and those they would otherwise harm.”

Col:‘A persons body is their body to use as they see fit, not as “society” sees fit.’

So you are saying that society should impose NO rules over individuals so that they do not harm another? I notice you did not answer whether you follow road rules either, yet. Do you also think it is ok to deliberately kill in a murder-suicide, take or deal in drugs, over-indulge in drink and then drive…?

Col’s playing the mad hatter at Alice’s tea party again and re-writing dictionary definitions to boot. Check co and dependence again, Col. You need others, to whatever degree is immaterial, you are co-dependent on other humans and life-forms.

Attending psychiatric professionals does not enable you to become life’s oracle, Col.

Col: ‘Criminalising pregnancy is a very very dangerous path to go down’ – I agree Col, which is why abortion is wrong, it does just that. There’s another example of your self-contradiction!

Col: ‘People, acting as individuals will often make mistakes of judgement.
However, the mistakes they make are personal and far less serious to when the State makes a mistake.’

I guess the victims of the Bali, London, Madrid or NY’s twin tower terrorist attacks would disagree there, Col.

I have a friend who is raising her sister’s surviving daughter after a young man told his friends he was going out to kill somebody – then drove his car directly at the next vehicle he saw and killed the driver and her children, with one daughter surviving. It’s difficult to imagine any of those victims would agree either, Col

Philo “Government funds to build Churches.”

Show me where I suggested such a thing, I did not so do not put words in my mouth.
I observed Churches and religious groups obtain “tax breaks” on the funding of their operations, which they do.

I thought better of you than to makeup words that other said.

Meg1
Unlike Philo, I expected no different from you than what you delivered.

Come on Meg1, you are getting boringly predictable.

“Co-dependence” I quoted from named websites. Argue with the website authors and the medical profession if you wish but you have no basis in reason to suggest I have “re-written” anything. It is just another of your enfeebled attempts to attack and denigrate a view which you have consistently failed to challenge with logic, meaningful argument or reason


Your leap of “logic” between someone exercising sovereignty over the resources of their own body and someone bombing other people is beyond the bounds of reality and again displays your inability to distinguish between “separate individuals” and those who are entities which are “entirely and completely dependent”.

So tell me Meg1,how does a stranger, who you do not know, have never met and whose desires, circumstances, expectations and capacities you are completely ignorant of and who could not give a stuff what you think, deciding to abort affect you or your life in any way?

How are you “effected” by things which you live in complete ignorance of ?

Is it “healthy” to pretend you should hold sway over the decisions of strangers, like some medieval potentate conducting a session of the “Star Chamber” or a aristocrat deciding on the disposition of his or her serfs?

I do not think so!

I believe such views, to a “right of authority” to control are corrupt and evil. And these are the views of the RCC (denying all women’s right to abortion),

I would be failing my personal standards if I did not stand up against the corrupt and evil.

I will not desert my moral values to appease the sensitivities of any religious denomination, Catholics included.

Col, Yabby – I applauded you for your patience in this forum. Though I see that it is a little wasted on the crowd who believe only God’s way is the right way.

I’ll say this again. Those reading, try to pay attention. The crux of this debate – beyond what religion or other dogma says is this:

When does a human become a human?

Now, if you discuss this, you will find that there is no certainty in answering – nothing that can be held to be ‘beyond doubt’. Scientist hold various positions that support most ideas expressed in this forum. How can any of us state we are ‘right’?

If you are of a mind that a human exists at the point of conception, you have every right to believe this. And act as you see fit in this regard – but only for yourself. Not in regard to how someone else perceives the issue.

You could argue that in defending the unborn, you are defending those same rights granted by the rest of society to the post-born. However this argument fails as the whole of society does not agree on whether the pre-born have these rights in the first place.

If the whole of society cannot agree and the whole of the body of experts cannot agree – then it is folly for the minority to presume to be right and force your view on others.

Given this, the only one to make a judgement is the individual (i.e. the woman who is pregnant). We live in a society that values individual freedom, including freedom of religion and freedom of choice.

You may be heartbroken at the results of these choices and beliefs. You may be powerfully driven to spread the ‘truth’ as you see it – and you have the right to do so. However every individual also has the right to reject your truth and find their own.

That is the nature of the debate regarding RU486. All else is simply one ideology competing against another.

Col, you find difficulty remembering 'values' you espouse between sentences, but your assertion that the State's mistakes always affect others worse than an individual's...expect to be challenged as I have done. The statement was so outrageous as to be beneath even your usual rant.

You suggest social and political anarchy?

Try a good spell/grammar check before suggesting ignorance from others on any score.

Col: 'I would be failing my personal standards if I did not stand up against the corrupt and evil. I will not desert my moral values...'

Interesting that you talk about MORAL VALUES and PERSONAL STANDARDS...but rail and rant against others who hold their own values and standards, and stand against corruption and evil. Why? Because they differ from yours?

Hitler claimed to be righteous when he 'chose' who lived and died too...he was proven to be evil, corrupt, amoral and wrong when society found the truth and had the courage to speak out against him.

Interestingly the silent majority rose against that vocal and violent autocracy too, when they could tolerate the killing no longer...the wheel turns full circle.

Reason: 'When does a human become a human?''...there is no certainty in answering – nothing that can be held to be ‘beyond doubt’.'

If there's no certainty in deciding that human life DOESN'T begin at conception, who're you to decide against giving the benefit of the doubt to the unborn...you're deciding on a living human, whatever stage of life it's at, there's no doubt on that score. Scientific and medical proof exists on the beginning of human life - IVF alone has dismissed any arguments. Even if life is held in suspension, it remains until it's extinguished, however, it cannot be commenced by injecting life-sustaining drugs or anything else, including genetic material into a human corpse at any stage of the life span...if life isn't there, it won't commence or develop, except from conception.

You'll need a new nom de plume if you're suggesting that it's reasonable to kill based on mob rule...that's why Jesus Christ was crucified...it doesn't make it right!

Meg,
I made no judgement as to whether life began at conception or not – and I made no judgement on whether to decide this for one’s self was right, wrong, correct or incorrect. I simply pointed out that the beginning is currently ambiguous by social standards – not yours. I made this observation about the current status quo to try to get the discussion back on track.

That you disagree does not make you or your argument right or the only valid answer. I respect that you have a position and I respect that you have the right to choose what to do regarding that position. Do you not afford others the same respect and right?

The truth of the matter is that there is no correct or right answer. If you choose to disagree with this, fine. If you choose to impose your beliefs on others or hold their point of view in contempt, that is not fine. That is tantamount to me saying ‘There is no God’ to you. I don’t need any to say there is not, but simply rely on my beliefs and values while belittling you for your faith. I think you would agree that that would be unfair and unwarranted?

I am simply asking that you refrain from imposing your beliefs and perhaps have a civilised discussion without degenerating to insults. I’m sure that Col and Yabby would do likewise if we all agreed that insults do a discussion no good at all.

If you claim to be a good Christian, perhaps you may take a little time to look at yourself and think about why you insulted me. Where did I do so to you?