Hi all

Yabby (post 10:04:53 AM 14/3/06)

".. killing each other as they fight over scarcer .. resources .."
Often we don't have lack of resources, we just fail to re-distribute them.

Part of the 'problem' is the restrictions brought on by civil war; part is because of business 'greed'; part is logistics.

Israel turned much of the once-rich farmland laid barren by the Arabs back into farmlands. They did that post-1948 by the use of technology & their kibbutz.

Africa could emulate Israel. Firstly they must cease fighting.
(15/3/06)

wibble (post 1:30:47 PM 14/3/06)

For most of what you write (concerning my post), you & I aren't in conflict - if you read what I said & 'read between the lines'.

My hierarchical order is obviously not the same as yours.

In an emergency, I would firstly save my former-wife before any other human being. Next would be my children. Then would be any other human whom I could rescue.

Animals would be rescued as best I could, but I would not rescue an animal in preference to your wife, husband, children, friends or enemies. Thus a foetus takes priority over even my dog - & I loved my dog (deceased).

In all that, I am opposed to senseless killing of all animals - I abhor the use of animals for experimentation.
(15/3/06)

mjpb (post 2:51:02 AM 15/3/06)

I agree with you that the molestation of children by priests & others was often badly handled. Their culpability was sometimes denied. Re-deployment of the guilty is an affront to the victims, & society generally.

But non-admission of guilt is a human trait which extends throughout society. Some simple examples:
(i) my mum's killer tried to blame a Kings Cross (Sydney) pimp;
(ii) my younger son denied defrauding me - photos & finger-prints proved otherwise;
(iii) I witness multiple court cases where people from all walks-of-life deny their culpability. Most aren't Christians.
(15/3/06)

Cheers all

Hi all

Scout (post 7:05:55 AM 15/3/06)

A miscarriage must be a dreadful experience for women. Traumatic for a loving husband, too.

I empathise. I cannot begin to comprehend.

Women have sovereignty over their body ... until they create another life. Their responsibility then is, to also protect the life inside her.

Women who continue to smoke, drink excessively, & do things which endangers both lives, are culpably negligent.

I don't disagree that those who "draw breath" should receive priority. I'm simply opposed to foetus killing - unless the woman's life is endangered.

And there lays the ethical dilemma for a doctor who has ulterior motives, or a woman who sees abortion as a life-style choice.

Rape? Domestic violence? My compassion extends to those women. "The jury is still out" for me. The foetus & woman are both valued creatures.
(15/3/06)

Scout [Dianne] (post 8:12:12 AM 20/3/06)

You seem to possess a beautiful heart. That often comes from repetitive/mass trauma. Little could be worse than what you revealed - only death.

I likewise walked abandoned religion when at 11-years when I heard hypocrisy from a minister's wife. Recently I've learnt not to judge. Priests, ministers, truck-drivers & astronauts aren't perfect.

Multiple traumas brought me back to Christ - many years later.

I mean no disrespect for a woman when I oppose abortion. I don't diminish women's status - they are my equal. But I don't expect them to lift heavy weights.

We were created physiologically different - thankfully! True Christians will recognise that because He said through Paul:
"Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the church (body of Christians) & gave Himself up for her."

My former-wife was always more important to me, than I was to me. My children were next. But under God, all (human) life is of equal value.

That's what makes decision-making during war difficult for Christians. Churchill struggled with it throughout his ministry. It brought him to mental illness - Cyclothymia.

So, too is it with euthanasia & abortion. It is the taking of another life. However, ......
(20/3/06)

Cheers all

LAB, no wonder people around the world regard Europeans as an arrogant bunch, as we try to force our culture, our lifestyle, our religions on them. Comparing solutions in Israel with say Rwanda,
smacks of European ignorance!

Israel has a highly educated population, where 92% live in urban areas. They have all the money they need, usually from America.
The abortion rate is similar to that in Australia, contraception is
freely available, the Catholic Church has no influence! People have a choice to have a couple of kids and educate them. They make that choice, the birth rate is half of that in Rwanda.

In Rwanda 8% live in urban areas. The rest lack an education, so make a living from the land. The population density is quite a bit higher then in Israel. Of course they will fight over this little bit of land, if that all they have! Sheesh, that is not rocket science....

In Rwanda abortion is illegal, contraception hard to obtain, thanks to the Catholic Church. Most women have around 6 kids, they are slaves to their circumstances. Trying to give all those kids an education is nearly impossible, so they live off the land. So they fight over land. Under these circumstance, for you to suggest that these uneducated and impoverished people should employ high tech methods, based on high capital inputs and an educated workforce, smacks of European arrogance and stupidity!

LAB, clearly you needed religion to deal with some trauma in your life. Fair enough, some people become anxious and can only achieve homeostatis of the brain, with that kind of belief in the supernatural. People often ignore the fact that emotions play a larger role in human behaviour, then we are led to believe about
ourselves.

Other then that you seem to come across as a thinking individual.
Why you cannot see the trauma and heartache that Catholic dogma is creating for Africans, beats me.

Yabby, still advocating killing babies rather than eating chimps…please use correct terminology and facts. The terminology is trimester (as in three months) - that means it is roughly a third of a 40-42 week (nine months) pregnancy (normal term). A trimester is NOT 25-26 weeks…so that leaves you with a dilemma, do you now regard killing as acceptable up to the end of the 2nd trimester, or still the first trimester – 12-14 weeks?

Wibble the comparisons were yours and I’d eat neither for all the reasons I have given regarding the value of both babies and foetus’.

Your admission of cannibalism by choice rather than eating other mammals is illegal and repugnant – you are not one to trust with small children, are you?

I enjoy meat, fish and poultry though I don’t eat my pets…or my children.

Your suggested ‘choices’ are invalid and absurd, like your posted banter…

‘Is abortion ok if childbirth kills the mother? ‘

An aborted child must still be born…it may be torn apart or killed before it is delivered, but it will still be delivered. Your ignorance is astounding…abortion does NOT eliminate delivery of the child.

’What if childbirth kills others?’

Your question and its subsequent answer are not even plausible theories – as such I can’t imagine why you would ask then ‘answer’ such questionable argument ,unless you’re short of something to do…things a bit slow at work and trying to look busy?

Based on similar comparisons, Col’s CLUB are those who accept killing of babies to term…there are significant numbers of men who abandon or abuse their partners violently if they don't abort when it's demanded of them, some also abuse or kill their partner’s children.

Col says that the actions of a/some priests indicates the actions of many billions of other Catholics and priests, it follows that these anti-life, abusive men are indicative of Col’s team-club members by the same comparisons. i.e., All anti-lifers must therefore be abusive, violent and may kill their partner's children.

(cont.)

RE: “free-will” – the teachings of the Catholic Church demand the exercise of freewill. Freewill does not mean in ignorance or selectively doing what you want and hang the consequences.

Freewill does not exclude the rights of others.

Freewill also demands that the individual makes a choice based on accurate information, not out of convenience...or the easy way out.

Scout – are you suggesting shades of Hitler again, experimentation with human life now.

RE: Trays of frozen embryos…and stem cell research.

Look into the GIFT program for couples experiencing difficulty with conception and using stem cells of adult family members which does not require experimentation with embryos.

There is no need for trays of frozen embryos with the GIFT program and other less interventionist, available methods that are much more couple-friendly but not as financially lucrative for the medicos involved.

Yabby, the corruption of governments in Africa and other places results in lack of food, usually NO access to education except for the elite few and civil unrest and war which also diverts funds away from food and necessities for the people…your determination to lay the blame at the feet of the Catholic Church does not make it valid…it just points out your bigotry.

Meg1 “Col’s CLUB are those who accept killing of babies to term…there are significant numbers of men who abandon or abuse their partners violently if they don't abort when it's demanded of them, some also abuse or kill their partner’s children.”

Whilst, from your posts, you have admitted a relationship between yourself and the Roman Catholic Church, I have no formal or informal association with people who abuse women or children, Meg1.

So stop slandering me by pretending mythical associations between me, “My Club” with the sort of abusers which you, by admission associate with.

I challenged your colleagues to establish a single website which suggested any association between me and derogatory practices, after I had identified sources to millions of website containing damning evidence of Corruption by Roman Catholic Priests. I would further note I have never suggested anything about the conduct of ordinary “Roman Catholic Congregants” as a group, other than to allude to their gullibility in placing their faith in an organisation of liars and perverts.

Your posts are degenerating into posting the vilest slanders Meg1, so I suggest you give up. You have no reputation to protect nor position of credibility to hold on to and I am quite able to display the levels of your own corruption from what you have already posted.

As for “the teachings of the Catholic Church demand the exercise of freewill.”

And that is what the RCC was doing as it tortured and murdered heretics, is it?
That is why it retains the office of the Inquisition?
That is why people who would seek to exercise freewill will be refused communion or participation in the mass or even be threatened with excommunication?
That is why the Pope decides that contraception will be outlawed?

I can only conclude, the RCC idea of “freewill” must be a farce!