(from previous post)
As a consequentialist, I argue an unconscious person will soon be experiencing the happiness of their lives, so killing them won’t result in good consequences (usually).
I don’t believe cognitive processes have primary moral value, only value as they create happiness, so I don’t have to defend conscious thought as a necessary source of moral value (though it is sufficient if such thought creates happiness).

The foetus, with currently limited capacity for happiness, isn’t as important as the more definite happiness of the mother. Some effort is required to get this foetus to a point where it can, through growing awareness, thinking, and other capacities, enjoy its existence, and it is not particularly certain the foetus will get there.
Additionally, the foetus, and the effort to get it to the same moral value of mothers, can easily be replicated elsewhere.

At its base, my defense is;
*the happiness from these capacities is intrinsically valuable
*I know this from moral intuition
*and this forms part of my world-view
(to others being human has intrinsic value, this value is derived from their world-view, and conforms to their moral intuitions).

The last resort to test these world-views, based on moral intuitions, is to use heuristic examples (such as is it ok to kill a drunken, unconscious woman?)

Try these-

Is it ok to remove a foetus to keep in permanent “frozen” storage (not technically killing it)? What could be done to the foetus as long as it isn’t killed?

Choose between saving a child or a tray of foetuses?

Is abortion ok if childbirth kills the mother?
What if childbirth kills others?
(eg an embryo infected by a virus that won’t be virulent until birth? How many people should be at risk before abortion is ok? What if at birth, the virus kills the child anyway? and mother? and x others?)

If a woman wants to abort a foetus we know is infected with a virus, but we can cure it and thereby get a vaccine that will save millions, how does the woman’s right to choose come into it?

““In any event your ‘team’ has a much worse track record for engaging in paedophile behaviour.”

Maybe you could enunciate for us all which “Team” is “My Team”.

I hold fealty to no religion. I am neither atheist nor agnostic.

So please tell me “Which Team” are you referring to in your pitifully defensive claim that “mine” is worse than “yours”.”

When I pointed out that your team has a worse track record for engaging in paedophile behaviour I was referring to the group you were referring to when you said:

“My club rules differ from your club rules.”

If you wish to make an issue of the use of ‘team’ rather than ‘club’ than substitute ‘club’ for ‘team’.

“You display self-righteous CRAP!”

You would never be self righteous would you?

Deep down you must know that you are putting forward ‘CRAP” about Catholic priests. I still think that you are being deliberately obtuse to obvious reality and are pretending to be a slave of media sensationalism just because you hate Catholics.

Wibble

While I am enjoying the intellectual thrust of your posts - eg "would Meg1 choose to eat either a foetus or baby" LOL at that one.

As a woman I have had to face the cold hard reality of:

1. Failure of contraceptive
2. Domestic violence
3. Rape (acknowledge rape is a crime against men also, but men do not get pregnant as a result).

My point is that women have to live with the consequences of any sexual activity, in a manner that does not effect men except on a peripheral level - that they choose to become involved is a conscious decision not a consequence of their sexual behaviour.

It is no doubt amusing for you to conduct such intellectual musings. However it makes not one jot of difference to me. I have had to make the decision of obtaining an abortion after very careful consideration - as do the majority of women.

The decision remains with the individual woman concerned - regardless of any possible 'virus vaccines' or any other theory you may wish to raise in debate.

I guess I am offended, Wibble - having dealt with the reality leaves me rather bereft of patience for your intellectualising.

Abortion is a hard choice for any woman to make. People who call us murderers, harass us outside clinics, cast aspersions on our intelligence/morals are those whose motives have to be regarded with the utmost suspicion.

What are your motives Wibble?

mjpb “When I pointed out that your team has a worse track record for engaging in paedophile behaviour I was referring to the group you were referring to when you said:

“My club rules differ from your club rules.””

So maybe now you might like to tell me which team / club you are referring to.

NAME IT!

I call your team “The Roman Catholic Church” it claims a membership of 1 billion (but then it claims a lot of things).

What is the Name of “my team / club”, how many members does it have?

What evidence do you present to support your claim that my team has a “worse track record for engaging in paedophile behaviour”.

You have made the claim to my team's decline into the worst excesses of human depravity.

I FEEL IT FAIR TO DEMAND YOU PRESENT SOME REFERENCES TO SUPPORT THAT ACCUSATION.

If I need to find evidence of in statements of claims of depravity enacted by roman catholic priests and covered up (the real corruption) by the religious hierarchy of the catholic church, I can go onto the net and find items by using keywords like

catholic paedophiles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church_sex_abuse_scandal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3157555.stm

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ws95/paedo44.html


That is just 3 from a list among hundreds of thousands.

I challenge you to produce just one indictment of “my team / club”.


mjpb bring it all on.. make some attempt to be a man and prove your assertion



Produce JUST ONE internet reference to support your claim that my team has a “worse track record for engaging in paedophile behaviour” of any sort, let alone worst than yours.

Be a man and rise to the challenge OR be seen as a bungling, impulsive, judgementalistic liar, devoid of credibility and credence.

(I do not intend to hold my breath while we wait).

Hi all

Col Rouge (post 7:06:42 AM 11/3/06)

Thanks for the joke - we needed that! You forgot to mention that Methodists wouldn't dance, though.

The Christian principle of salvation through grace by faith is supposed to translate into resultant "goodworks" & righteousness. It rarely does.

I often suggest that people should obey the last 6 of the Ten Commandments - removing God from the equation. But even Christians struggle with those few.
(13/3/06)

Martin ibn Warriq (post 12:04:12 PM 12/3/06)

Pretty definitive & graphic. Unlike many, though, I've seen a 10-week old foetus & carry around a life-sized replica. Very disturbing when you see the reality.

Is it any wonder that abortionists often fail to full inform their patients?
(13/3/06)

Yabby (post 2:13:15 PM 12.3.06)

".. your anti abortionists and "breed like rabbits" brigade. .."
Where do you get such 'licence' to untruthfully link two unassociated philosophies? Not every pro-lifer seeks to have large families.

My former-wife & I only had 3-children. That was our choice. If she'd conceived again we would have happily accepted the additional child/children. Once again: we weren't/aren't Catholic.

This post is NOT about overseas activities - as shameful as they are. It's about Australia, & what our views are &/or should be.
(13/3/06)

Martin ibn Warriq (post 3:27:04 PM 12/3/06)

I appreciate your comment.

I'm certainly not anti-Catholic. I may not agree with all that you uphold, but we are substantially in agreement on many issues.
(13/3/06)

Col Rouge (post 11:54:36 PM 12/3/06)

"All the ills and shortcomings of all the atheists, secularists, wiccans witches and hob-goblins do not excuse the Church of Rome .."
No they don't! But equally, Protestants should recognise that Luther was an anti-Semite - not to ignore that Roman Catholics varyingly were too. The Brethren Church was one of the last to eradicate "slavery"; the SDAs get Daniel 8 & 9 and Revelation interpretation wrong; the JWs are just about totally wrong, ad infinitum.

When are Christians going to stop arguing with Christians & focus on our common 'enemies'? Christendom is more & more emulating Islam.
(13/3/06)

Cheers all

LAB, the link between the 2 philosophies is made by the Catholic Church. If you had looked at the URL of the pro-life ph that I posted, you would have noticed global links. Yes there are people like you and your wife, but one swallow doesent make a summer lol.

In Australia, the right to an abortion is easy. If they tried to take it away,there would be riots in the streets and politicians would lose their testicles :) So what is wrong with having some empathy with those hundreds of thousands of women, dying around the world, because of the Catholic agenda? Where is the Christianity in all that? Seeing its a global issue, why should we not mention
what happens globally?
Morality and questions about it do not stop at the Australian border.

Scout, I don't think that Wibble means any harm, he/she is just looking at the issue from a different perspective. Yup there are the intellectual musings on one hand. In a way they do affect you,
certainly other women. The fact that you had a choice to abort,
choice to leave your husband etc, is not one that all women have.

Since the Vatican tried to claim a patent on the right to define objective morality, they have also kept folllowed their agenda to change laws in various countries. I don't know if you follow what happens in the US, but right now the pro life lobby are doing their darndest, using legal means, to take away American womens rights to an abortion. Given half a chance, they would try the same in Australia.

So we really have to see the abortion-contraception debate, from various perspectives. One is the philosophical perspective. Two is the human rights perspective, as in your case. Thirdly the sustainability perspective, as is an issue globally.

Perhaps Wibble's big mistake was to respond to Meg's ludicrous claims in the first place. She's got no valid arguments, apart from wanting to get to heaven by being a good Catholic. So she's making these totally ridiculous claims, just to say something