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The Forum > Article Comments > Osama bin Laden: He's back ... > Comments

Osama bin Laden: He's back ... : Comments

By Brad Berner, published 31/1/2006

Brad Berner gives an explanation to the meaning of the latest announcement from Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida.

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Dear Brad

Very topical & highly current.

Islam, as you probably know, says ".. do not falter & cry out for peace when you (will be ) the uppermost, .." Surah 47:35. There are other passages which suggest that Muslims may 'retreat' if they are overwhelmed. But the Qur'an & Ahadith also say that Muslims can lie to (1) reconcile 2 parties; (2) in jihad; (3) their wives. El Itidayah, Vol 4 p 81 & the "Muslim Doctrine of God" p 41 affirm this. I doubt that he will be frightened despite the Pakistani attacks. He will believe in Allah's 'victory' through his actions.

To a Muslim there appears no separation between the pragmatic and "religious or ideological considerations". Defensive? Has Osama ever acknowledged the commencement of hostilities by Mohammad from 624AD which resulted in about 124 wars led by the Mohammedans until 720AD. Those wars only predicated the centuries of atrocities since. Islam sees not separation between "the west" in secular format & that of the religious beliefs of Christianity & Judaism. Moreover, anything that isn't Islamic is "their enemy".

“An-Nasekh wa Al-Mansoukh” (abrogating & the abrogated text) doesn't require Islam to war the Infidels before attacking - Osama knows that; those who say otherwise are only platitudinous & seeking sympathy. Muslims killed as part of the collateral to war will go to "paradise" - except the women, because they are inferior in "intelligence", "religion" & "gratitude", Muslim recorded, "Amongst the inmates of Paradise the women would form the minority." Sahil MUSLIM, Kitab Al-Riqiq, chapter MCXL Hadith 6600.

In the sense of receiving worldwide empathy amongst the 'nominal' or 'moderate' Muslims, Osama has now met his commitment by his "olive tree" approach. But, let us who also study Islam not be fooled. He would attack without warning & in an inkling believing that Allah has sanctified his actions, & that he has conformed to the traditions of his prophet.

Keep up the good work & the focus upon this truly evil man.

Cheers
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 10:30:35 AM
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Little A Buddy,

Glad to see you started reading perverse African missionaries work. Al 'Nasekh Wal Mansooukh', authored by A H Gazali who died 1110 AD
was a theory developed in the time of war (ie the lovely peaceful crusades!). Very few muslims read or study anything more than the Quran itself. Lying is the 4th greatest sin in Islam after denying God's existence, being ungrateful to your parents or accusing an honest woman of adultery.

I can see from your posts that 'lying, deception and misrepresentation' are all good values in your faith.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 10:43:59 AM
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A chilling warning we would not have received from our political classes who still don’t seem to be in tune with the real threat Islam poses to the West. I admit that, in my ignorance, I laughed at the idea of a terrorist offering to treat with the US. But he is just belatedly adhering to the ‘sporting’ requirements of Islam.

It’s all too easy to be lulled by the smooth tongues of ‘moderates’ who attempt to head us off from the nasty bits and show no inclination to address the problems with Islam and the fact that terrorists use the same Koran as they do.

How about it, Fellow Human? Can you put aside your shots about ‘one-source’ ‘experts’ and references to ‘nutbag’ imams and admit that there are serious problems with Islam which are not being addressed?

Please leave out the Old Testament and Christian fundamentalists. Christian fundamentalist ratbags don’t terrorise; they form political parties. I am not a Christian, but I don’t have any reason to fear them. Average Christians have worked out was is relevant to modern times and what is not.

Please also put aside the ‘my previous posts’ bit, and references to your website. Some of us would like to hear, here and now, what you as a supposedly ordinary Muslim and other ordinary Muslims have to say about the fact that the Koran has some pretty vicious stuff in it, and that this vicious stuff is being taught to millions of people by rote, because they are illiterate or don’t understand Arabic.

I have nothing against decent Muslims. I have probably been abrupt in this instance because, like many others, I have lost all patience with these decent Muslims who continually refuse to answer questions and who will only play the game by their rules, even in Australia where the law protects their right to free speech.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 12:12:01 PM
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A few points

1/ LAB demonstrates that more and more of us are delving into the waters of "Islamic history" and finding material which, is a step toward understanding the deeper motivations of Islam and the higher echelons of the Muslim world.

2/ LEIGH notes the lack of threat from fundamentalist Christians, and rightly so, though I do warn Leigh, keep you eyes on anything to do with "Christian Reconstructionism" because it is just as lethal as the worst Sharia, and the movement IS seeking to impose its view via US economic and military power....

3/ The fact that Bin Laden is 'reaching out' to the Islamic world by seeking the 'correct procedure' is a sign that he is seeking to unite it in world Jihad.

4/ The raw emotion (Bin Ladin's fuel) is evident, with the Islamic world trying by violence and outrage to censor such things as the Danish cartoons and a willingness to demonstrate in Denmark itself.

5/ HAMAS is as yet an unknown quantity, the only real questions are :

a) Will they recant on their long standing policy of destruction of Israel and risk losing much of the support which put them in power ? (In order to continue receiving aid handouts) (The answer to this depends in part on how much of their vote was an 'anti corrupt Fatah' vote and how much was a 'destroy Israel' vote. Only time will tell.

b) Will they retain that "destroy Israel" policy ? and if so, will the EU,USA and Israel continue to deal with them or cut off aid completely. If so, where next?

CONLUSION: I highly doubt.. in fact I'm absolutely certain, that neither HAMAS or ISRAEL will ever, ever, ever and ever (except when hell freezes over)compromise on the status of Jerusalem, which is key to much of this conflict, duely underlined by the triumphal visit of Hamas to the Temple mount very quickly after the result was known.

So, we stand at a pivotal moment in world history. My other and more adventurous assessments on this are found in previous posts :
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 12:46:29 PM
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Leigh, if this is what you say about Islam, I'd hate to read your views about Judaism.
Posted by Irfan, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 1:01:50 PM
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Brad - First (fact), correct spelling is Usama Bin Laden (contrary to popular belief). Second (opinion), I'm more afraid of George W. Bush than I am of Bin Laden (contrary to popular belief).
Posted by tubley, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 2:47:03 PM
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Irfan,

Thankyou. You have just proven my point about ordinary, decent Muslims. You have turned aside the questions, and concerned yourself with what I think about Jews. I am confounded by your counter question. I have never mentioned Jews. I don't care one way or the other about them. What has my view (which you will not correct of address in any way) of Islam got to do with Judaism? Are you saying that it is worse than Islam. I am aware that their is no love lost between the two religions, but I wouldn't have thought that you would have involved yourself with that sort of thing.

Don't be put off by the fact that I asked FH to answer some other questions about your faith. Jump right in and tell me what you think. I won't be holding my breath waiting for FH.

The continuing practice of ignoring critics generates more suspicion. You are an Austalian. Been here since you were 3 months old, or somthing like that. You understand as well as anyone the tell-it-as-it-is 'rule'. Straight up. Ridgy-dij. It's a pretty poor state of affairs when Austalians can'thave a go at each and discuss differences which might lead to some understanding.

You might think it's OK to write me and others of and ignore us. And if that's what you want to do, there's nothing more to be said. The problem is we are left with the belief that Islam is so odd, so fragile, so dangerous to scrutinise, and Muslims so touchy about it, that there is truly no way a non-Muslim can have any relationship or useful contact and dialogue with a Muslim.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 3:25:33 PM
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What's all this gaff about 'ordinary decent Muslims' having to justify anything that Bin Laden and co does? Bin Laden is a crazy mofo who is interpreting one freaking huge holy book as he likes, in order to do some really evil stuff. How does that make other Muslims responsible for him?

You know for the life of me, I cannot remember a single Christian ever coming up to me and saying, "I would really like to apologize for that pro-lifer who bombed the abortion clinic the other day. As I am a fellow Christian and as he was probably following the Bible, I realize the whole thing is partly my fault". Or, "I am really sorry that the various homophobic Christian churches are contributing to the high rate of suicide amongst gay teenagers, even though I'm not homophobic myself, I guess I'm partly to blame".

All the Christians on this forum, please form an orderly queue to begin the apologising.
Posted by Count0, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 5:03:16 PM
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Count0,
You are now on my Christmas card list. Amnesty cards of course.
Posted by chainsmoker, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 6:38:36 PM
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The question is: Does Fellow_Human and Ifran defend the Islam that Usama Bin Larden practises and espouses. If they do not - then they should not try to defend their views of Islam when others are interpreting the Qur'an and Adiths as Usama Bin Larden believes.

Their posts then become a side line and a detraction from the point of the debate. They might hold the true reformed view of Islam; but that is not what Usama Bin Larden upholds. Or is it the same? To understand Usama Bin Larden we must evaluate just what he believes about the word of Allah as contained in the Qur'an. This will help us establish his influence. It is evident that there more Muslims that believe as Usama than there that follow moderate Islam. These people live in isolation and are brainwashed in Islam and its jihadist teachings.

The same goes for understanding the differences between Orthodox and Liberal Judaism, or Fundamentalist and Orthodox Christians. To understand what they believe as the divine authority is essential to understanding their thought process and motivations. Usama Bin Larden has his pasionate supporters in Australia - they are part of the Islamic brotherhood, they want to impose Qur'anic teachings upon all Australians. So Islam in Australia is not made up of all moderate Muslims.
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 6:40:34 PM
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Leigh your thoughts are mine, and I think most share them.
I still beleave miss information and just outright lies are used by those who opose those views.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 6:56:26 PM
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Fellow_Human,

What are your thoughts on the possibility of bin Laden killing innocent people.

The London bombings of last year were perpetrated by English Muslims.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of love for us "infidels".

I can promise you now that Australia will never be controlled by an Islamic government. I know that is upsetting but I firmly believe that Australia will eventually wake up to Islam.

Deny that your religion believes that Islam is the only religion and that all others are false. I think that is stated in the first few pages of "The Book".
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 6:57:19 PM
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"Ah Soh God of the Trogs"
After the chorus of the "Daisy Cutters" not all,but some of Bin Laden remained.A round,ugly rancid orfice,far more beautiful than his persona.
After his demise,The Supreme Consciousness decided that he should be given a Buddist mentor Ah Not,in order to improve his attitudes and tolerance towards others.
Living in the earth's bowels Ah Soh was feeling unimportant,so one day he sought the council of Ah Not.Speaking through a puckered coit made him difficult to understand at times.
Ah Soh; I'm depressed.
Ah Not; Why so?
Ah Not; No one has answered my mobile text messages for refuge and they did notlet me achieve my potential.
Ah Not; And what was that?
Ah Soh; To bring the west to my level.
Ah Not; To what avail?
Ah Soh; So Sodom Insane will think that I'm powerful.At his last party at Gomorah they were sniffing mustard gas,mailing anthrax and playing pin the isotope on the skippy.But no could remember what a good time they'd had.
Ah Not;They must have been very drunk?
Ah Soh; No.the stupid bastards all died.Even the Hindu Irish suicide bomber thought he was to be reincarnated.Sodom told him he could clone him and he wouldn't come back as an animal,but there wasn't enough DNA.
Ah Not;He must have been totally incinerated.
Ah Soh;No, there was never enough DNA.
Ah Not; Tell me ,how do you recruit these suicide bombers?
Ah Soh;Easy ,we just tell them that they can have 50 virgins.
Ah Not;Their sex drive must be very strong!
Ah Not; Who said anything about sex?Only look and touch.You can't have sex with them!
Ah Not;Why not?
Ah Soh;Well,they wouldn't be virgins anymore.It took eighty years to find that many!
Ah Not;Aren't they bit old?
Ah Soh; Oh no we froze them.
Ah Not; You mean to say that they're dead?
Ah Soh; Well,technically they're alive.Sodom's been experimenting and he'll have the DNA problem sorted out when he finds some smart scientists who enjoy suicide parties.
-continued
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 7:02:12 PM
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Boaz-David

I think your opinion on the issue of Jerusalem quite correct. For an answer I think revisiting the establishment of the State of Israel should be a basis of any resolution. The West Bank of Jerusalem was a part of Palestine. In the modern history of warfare following a war I cannot recall an occupied territory being claimed by the victorious state not eventually being returned to the traditional owners. Can you think of any? (Is Hell's temperature falling?)

Hamas is posing two or three positions on many issues. That represents an internal struggle within Hamas between it's different factions. However it's election manifesto ommitted any reference to the destruction of Israel.
There was an excellent article in yesterdays New York Times on just the issues you raise. Concensus seems to suggest Hamas victory was due in large part to two factors. Neither had much to do with foreign policy.

The aid issue is a non issue. All parties understand all it's implications and the pragmatists on all sides will prevail.

Yes, we are at a crossroads in so many issues. The single biggest issue is violence. In this issue the Palestinians who have asked Hamas to lead may well find us all a sensible resolution. We must not forget they accepted the need for peace with Israel. That is something the corrupt Arafat and Fatah couldn't bring about. They'd reject bin Laden's approach and his fundamentalism. I think Hamas may well already done that, all indications are if they haven't, then they are certainly debating those issues.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 7:06:00 PM
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Greetings All.

Arjay, it's 72 Virgins that he (or she?) will get - if their life is given up in martyrdom.

But like my son asked - "what if the other 22 were the ugly ones...?"
Like all good martyrs of all good religions the profits were for the prophets when all was said and done.

Fanatic religious zealots (of all persuasions) must surely need counselling - just read some of the exploits of their deeds throughout the ages...scary stuff! Even JC himself was given to an outburst.

Does one persons freedom fighter beget another's terrorist? A quandary time itself has not answered. "Terrorist" per se has not been defined by even the majority of academics and terror experts to date.

Under the latest SEDITION Laws, if I were even vaguely to put Uncle Summer Bed Linen in a positive light, then my visit to the virgins would be on shaky grounds. We are losing by degrees, 'freedom of speech' - contrary to what the proponents for parliamentary democracy would have us believe. Guantanamo Bay is not a nice B&B.

I would love to venture an opinion (without having to take my Perception Management Pills) re: Osama, Al-qaeda, et al.
Does the fact that the CIA trained him, the fact he was effectively the reason assistance rendered by Taliban Resistance Fighters ousted the Soviets in Afghanistan (for the US government mind you) have any bearing on todays stance against him?

It could also happen here in Australia under not too vastly different circumstances. Alienate, disenfranchise, belittle, place 'kill orders' on various members of an organisation and see what begins to transpire. Read how the latest Terror Laws affect any person of 'Aboriginal/Indigenous descent'. Maybe the government knows something about the Aboriginal Nations they won't let the rest of us in on? Does charity start at home - who knows. Hamas in Palestine has a winner in that regard.

We are the so called 'Homo Sapiens' - the Thinking Mans Ape. We do not seem very sapient after all the years of blood spilled it seems.
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 7:51:36 PM
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"Ah Soh God of the Trogs"

Ah Not; Your allies the Taliban,they closed all the soccer fields.
Ah Soh; Well we didn't close them,we just ran out of players.
Ah Not; You executed them!
Ah Soh; Only for missing goals.
Ah Not ;Not even for an own goal?
Ah Soh;Ah, for that crime ,death would be a blessing.
Ah Not; Why did Omah order such practises?
Ah Soh; It focus the mind and Omah found that he could command a new level of respect.Besides the crowd loved it
Ah Not; Why?
Ah Soh ; Because it wasn't happening to them.
Ah Not; The Taliban really supressed the Afghan women.
Ah Soh; They're not supressed.
Ah Not; Well they can't work have no education aren't allowed on the street to beg, even when their men are dead.
Ah Not; What an ungreatful bunch of whingers.Don't they realise how well off they are.My Al Kyber forces are working their passes to the bone,so they can be free from the evil influences of the West.
Ah Not; Like what?
Ah Soh; There is too much thinking and self indulgence and not enough suffering.
Ah Not; What's wrong with enjoying a mortal life?
Ah Soh: It distracts people from important issues.
Ah Not; Like...
Ah Soh; Fear and confusion.
Ah Not:Why not give people freedom and prosperty through education?
Ah Soh; How can I control those who know who I am?Besides,peace requires too much effort.The formula is simple;poverty,victims, blame hate and religion to defy all reason equals jihad.
Ah Not; When all is destryed,what will you preside over.
Ah Soh; Nothing.But we will have won!
Ah Soh; Won what?
Ah Soh; The jihad against the infidels!
Ah Not; Who are they?
Ah Soh; People you can't trust.They are everywhere.Sodom can't even trust himself.
Ah Not; If everybody can't trust anybody,then somebody is in deep poo.
Ah Soh; You bet ya.That's why I'm a nobody hiding in a cave.

-To be continued.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 7:58:42 PM
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Hi all

Fellow_Human (post 10:43:59 AM 31/1/06)
A pity you've chosen the tact that you have. Leading members of your own faith have directed me towards certain readings. I was told to read an 'authorized' version of the Qur'an, more "hassan" than Dawood's, which I already possessed. The 'new' Qur'an was a present from a leading Muslim. Several former-Muslims have also given instruction beyond my own studies.
When an 'authorised' version of the Qur'an says, as a footnote to Surah 2:190, & I quote:
"Al-jihad (holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of numbers & weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam (& is one of the pillars on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established. Allah's word is made superior. .... By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed & the Muslims fall into an inferior position; ... Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam of every Muslim, & he who tries to escape ... dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
"Narrated Abdullah bin Mas'ud: I asked Allah's Messenger, 'O Allah's Messenger! What is the best deed?' He replied, 'To offer the Salat (prayers) at the early fixed stated times.' I asked, 'What is the next in goodness?' He replied. 'To be good & dutiful to your parents.' I further asked, 'What is next in goodness?' He replied, 'To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause.' I did not ask Allah's Messenger anymore (questions) ..." 4 Hadith 41.
then, Jihad (fighting) is the 3rd most important task. It usurps zakat, the Ramadan & the Haj.
If you say that "telling lies" is the 4th greatest sin - from the 'official' list it's # 5 - then Muhammad committed the 4th greatest sin, & the Qur'an allows it under Surah 66:1-5. Further the Qur'an encourages others to also lie under Surah 16:106.

Peace. But at a cost. Holiness, righteousness & truth cannot be sacrificed just to get a truce.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 8:01:28 PM
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You won't ever get an honest answer from Muslims. Ask a straight forward question and the Jews will come up or a crazy Christian at an abortion clinic.

Lying is considered a very serious sin in Islam. However there are situations where lying is permissible. Eg A Sunni Muslim with the goal of achieving an Islamic State must lie - this would be a righteous act for Allah, not an immoral one.

There is an extremely negative attitude in Islam toward ridiculing Islam or Muslims, leaving Islam, or exerting any influence on Muslims which might influence them to leave Islam.

Under Sharia these could all be punished by death. A key verse in this context is Sura 2:217 which states that 'fitna' (testing/trial) is worse than killing.

We have to understand that we 'test' Muslims, with the truth admittedly. But culturally they cannot handle it.

Don't expect them to be able to use their scriptures to defend Islam. They are horrific. But in their mind, the great God, the mighty power can justifiably destroy his own creatures if they will not submit to Sharia. So Islam can justify itself no matter what it does.

They rely on ignorance, from us, and other Muslims to spread the religion.

One Christian who kills an abortion doctor is somehow the same as all Islamic terrorism? Do you usually compare things that way?

I'd like to borrow money from you.
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 8:22:21 PM
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Does US involvement with the Afgani Mujihadin lead by the very wealth Osama really have a bearing on what we're facing now?

If the US = German industry and Hitler = Osama

German heavy industry supported Hitler - their political goals coincided originally. But when Hitler was really understood, it was too late and German heavy industry was bombed to smithereens.

Can we say they were dumb for aligning with Hitler, yes. Can we equate the captains of German industry with Hitler himself? No we're talking about totally distant levels of morality surely.

One is premeditated, the other is mercenary true and self interested but didn't have plans for world domination and extinction of a whole people as Hitler had. Hitler wasn't stupid he wasn't going to scandalise the ppl he needed to use to attain power, he wasn't going to be explicit to 'just anyone'.

Even this analogy does the US a disservice given the fact they were fighting communism. Also the US CIA, probably had no real idea about Islam. The CIA is not well known for its analysis :)
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 8:37:10 PM
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You were going so well there Martin. Just couldn't resist that last dig could you?

"One Christian who kills an abortion doctor is somehow the same as all Islamic terrorism"

So this is your riposte? That "one abortion doctor" dying isn't that bad? Instead of addressing my fundamental argument that no religion lacks blood on its hands, you choose to simply trivialise death. Shame on you. Unlike you, I don't wish to cheapen this discussion by arguing about which religion has the greater kill count. Not that it would matter anyway, as the Quran says, "Killing one man is like killing all of humanity".

If the above quote is imprecise, please forgive me, I am not Muslim. I leave it to the real Muslims out there to rebut the selective quoting of Quran passages that seems to be currently going on.
Posted by Count0, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 8:56:07 PM
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It puzzles me all the time when OSBL starts spraying that there is not the discussion about that the poor cultural/social/economic state Islamic countries are in by many in the media. I always see OSBL missing the bigger picture, probably deliberately, that would help more people of what he calls his faith than anything. Wealthy, healthy and curious people are less likely to start blow themselves up to hurt others. Life might be good to live?

It has been eluded too by others in this forum but it is staggering that the countries with these huge oil reserves can at the same time be so poor and scientifically backward (relatively) to the western world. It is interesting that with the Muslim population that there is significantly under-representation in the scientific and engineering communities. I cannot remember the exact numbers but only a fraction of the scientific articles are published each year from what one would expect of that scientific community.

Is this because, as someone has suggested, that Islam does not want to/can’t focus on itself as it should. Is OSBL diverting people from this.
Another example (I hope I remember correctly) being the lack of analysis of when/why Jordon kicked out the Palestinians (quite hard too) but now the focus is all on the struggle with Israel. A home land in Jordon was thought to be good at one stage. But now Muslim countries continue banging the Israel drum to avoid looking internally.

Finally, I know there are comedians of all sorts out there but rarely do you hear routines about Islam especially compared other religions. Why the lack of self perspective?

Just some thoughts.
Posted by The Big Fish, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 10:58:57 PM
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BIN LADEN THE OPERATIONAL PLANNER

Most posts above have dealt with the issue of Islam. While this is sincere stuff it neglects the reality that bin Laden is infamous because he is a terrorist operational planner first and religious "seer" second.

He uses religion to pull the wool over everyones eyes in his personal struggle against the House of Saud. My contention is that he is fighting more of a class struggle between bored, wealthy Saudi sons (like him) against the decadent Royal Family of Saudi Arabia (like his parent's generation).

Its significant that Saudi Arabia is the holiest country of Islam but its unhelpful when eliminating him to get lost in a sea of religious debate.

A SECOND VIDEO

Quickly following bin Laden's media reappearance has been today's airing of al Qaeda second-in-command Ayman Al-Zawahiri's video taunting the US about an air strike in Pakistan which failed to kill him.

MELBOURNE COMMONWEALTH GAMES 15-26 MARCH 06

If these videos are supposed to signify that al-Qaeda and its leadership live its also a concern that these may also signify a buildup towards another operation.

The popular concentration on the US as a target may be a diversion from another high profile Western target full of international media.

The Melbourne Games or perhaps other major Australia cities during the games fill the bill. New York 2001, Madrid 2004, Melbourne? I'm crossing my fingers nothing will happen.

Stay tuned for the commentaries of "experts" on this subject in the Main Stream Media (MSM) and maybe OLO.
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 11:37:21 PM
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According to "the book" violence is advocated in certain instances. That is "violence".

I guess that means innocent people. People using trains and buses. Women having both their legs blown off just before they are going to get married. Women then getting married with the help of a prosthetist. That is courage. There is nothing courageous about blowing yourself up. Apparently you blow yourself up and go to paradise not to meet God but 72 virgins. One would have thought that paradise was about spiritual matters. Great religion.

Osama bin Laden is a snake who wants to kill innocent people. They are only infidels after all. Already we have seen muslims arrested in this country for planned terrorist activities. When will people wake up to this "religion".

Violence + 72 virgins = paradise. Nice religion with friends in high places. Just ask Nick Griffin.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 6:09:54 AM
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Leigh you should fear religious fundamentalist no matter what the flavor. Christian don't from terror groups because they are in a position of power in the west. When they aren't they do form armies and terror groups. You just have to read what religious leaders actually say to know that the goals of Christian Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists are the same. The only difference is their methods and as history has shown these change with the level of power. For instance did you know the Israel first prime minister was in a terror group that use to bomb British troops and civilians in Palestine. Christian groups are always pushing to have their ten commandments the basis of our laws and many Christians groups are opposed to democracy and secularism. Just look at the US league for the separation of church and state to see which groups aren’t members.
So while most Christians largely ignore the ten commandments should Christian fundamentalist ever getting into power they will enforce them as the taliban did and as Christians have in the past.
To be a fundamentist in this day and age clearly indicates the believer to have some deep seated mental problems.
Posted by Kenny, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 9:01:43 AM
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CONFLICT OVER RESOURCES. (Genesis 13)

8 So Abram said to Lot, "Let's not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers. 9 Is not the whole land before you? Let's part company. If you go to the left, I'll go to the right; if you go to the right, I'll go to the left."

“and Lot looked up and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan was well watered”

GREED AND PRIDE

“So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan”

MEEKNESS and HUMILITY.... inherits the earth

14 The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, "Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring [a] forever. (how long is ‘forever’ ? up to 2006 ?)

CONFIRMED BY JESUS

Blessed are the meek, ..... for they will inherit the earth.

Within 300 yrs, Rome was Christian. without war,sword,army or battle.

CONTRAST with BIN LADIN

Quran

8:65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

Vast reward for killing ?

On the ‘without intelligence’ bit, perhaps some reflection on this by them might be in order.

Is this ‘vilification’ ? “Holding up to public ridicule and serious contempt, on the basis of religion”
Inciting to hatred ? Do you fight those you love or those you hate ?
Inciting violence ?

As for me, and my house, we reject Mohammed, and choose the Lord (Jesus). Blessed be His name.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 9:10:17 AM
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Bin Laden WAS a twisted man ruined and brainwashed by the US and CIA, then decided to ark up against them.

What a shame he died and the US uses him as propoganda to begin justifying its next strategic phase in the conflict.

If a country like the US, with the most powerful intelligence and army in the world cannot find a sick mountain goat like Bin Laden, when they can find saddam (remembering saddam was much more covert than Bin Laden), it goes to show this man is merely a poster boy to assist the US in its new world structure.

I am not a conspiracy theorist at all. I am objective, have seen the facts and not listened to others, merely used common sense.

How funny is it that he pops up at such convenient times for the US. If they were fair dinkum they would have penetrated AL Jazeera, followed medical records, done an emu bob over the monutains and flushed him out and be on the fastrack to finding him, its just that he does not exist anymore.
Posted by Realist, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 9:11:05 AM
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Hi all

Leigh (post 12:12:01 PM 31/1/06)
It would appear that your appeal to Human_Being will likely fall on deaf ears.
I began with high expectations following his earlier posts. I had even asked him a question - I await an answer. But it appears that he sees Mohammad's life of waging wars & bragging about his conquests as acceptable, yet the disgraceful retaliatory Crusades are his starting point in all discussions. He ignores Mohammad's treachery from 624AD.

BOAZ_David (post 12:46:29 PM 31/1/06)
Well articulated & simply expressed. Very easy reading.
Secular Christianity isn't without sin. Nor is Secular Atheism - as you allude.
Jerusalem certainly is pivotal!

Irfan (post 1:01:50 PM 31/1/06)
I can't speak for Leigh. Only Leigh can speak for Leigh. But what has Judaism got to do with the topic that we are confronting?
Personally: my only real 'problem' with Judaism is that it doesn't recognise Christ for who He is. They're still waiting for the Mashiach ben Yoseph/ben David to come. They miss Isaiah 53 & 54, so the New Testament becomes irrelevant to them. But they are answerable to God (Yahweh) - they aren't answerable to me.
As to Islam: it is not only constantly abrogating, but it gets archaeological & historically proven facts incorrect too, viz:
' "Nobles," Pharaoh (1500BC) said, ... Make me Haman (510BC), bricks of clay, & make me a tower (2250BC) that I may climb to the G'd of Moses (b. 1525BC). ..." Sura 28:37/38. [Sura 28 = Al-Kasas = the Story.].
Is it any wonder that Osama bin LADEN is therefore a deluded & vexatious individual who is despised & distrusted by most of the world's population?

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 12:05:12 PM
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Realist

An excellent and up to date account of where bin Laden might be and whether he’s alive or dead is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Whereabouts

Sure bin Laden was financed by the CIA and also MI6 (by the way) at one time – a good fighter against the Russians in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

He may pop up at interesting times (eg 4 days before the 2004 Presidential elections) but that could be al Qaeda’s way of manipulating the Americans as well.

The term bin Laden is handy shorthand for the leadership of al Qaeda, which (in turn) is shorthand for a loose terrorist coalition of wealthy middle class men originating from Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. This makes a complex terrorist concept easier for the West (especially the American public) to understand.

It is convenient to personify the threat as “bin Laden” but this could be misleading, particularly if he is dead.

If bin Laden is dead that would possibly make his long term associate Egyptian born Ayam al-Zawahiri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri head of al Qaeda leadership. Al Zawahiri is a medical doctor (so also middle class) who may have treated bin Laden and is also an operational planner.

I don’t have your faith that the US is all powerful and all seeing. It would be a major political victory for Bush if the US could prove it had killed him or that he was dead for some other reason.

Regards

Plantagenet
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/
Posted by plantagenet, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 1:11:40 PM
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It may score a few short term brownie points if the US revealed he was dead, but they need a 'figurhead of evil' to justify their direction.

If you feel the US not all powerful. Look at google earth, and then tell me the US, who can see the tag on the back of your shirt from their satellites from out of space cannot locate movement in a remote area of Afganistan/Pakistan. They even have body heat sensors that can penetrate 15 metres underground.

How do you think they found Saddam? Saddam was not flanked by others as Bin Laden was (based on his health, his past etc), almost the only person who knew where Saddam was was Saddam himself.

If someone killed thousands of my people in the most terrifying attack my country has ever seen, i would be like a bat out of hell. I would not invade the country where possibly he is hiding, i would find HIM.

It does not hurt that the US powers that be know the family, know him and know his profile. they have some of the best minds in the world, yet they fail to find him.

They need a bogey man to enact their plans. We will watch the integration of the invasion of Iran with the evil of Bin Laden, just like Iraq, confuse the issue and throw a blanket over them all.
"Al Quada could get hold of nuclear weapons from Iran", they will say. therefore we must stop it etc etc.

So predictable. Its like being an hour into a 3hr movie and knowing the end. Iran will be gone with strong resistance, Arab Israeli conflict will escalate and US will move in on Israels side, the US people wont want to change governments during this tense time, and we will see the beginning of the Muslim vs the rest of the world disassociation and conflict.

Lucky we are a world where we all do care about eachother, we dont want war and are afraid of it, contrary to belief.
Wake me when it ends.
Posted by Realist, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 1:45:41 PM
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LAB,

Yes, I should know better. I’ve never had a straight answer from FH or Irfan.

There could be many reasons for this, of course; but the one that immediately comes to mind as that you cannot defend the indefensible.

Irfan used to write some interesting articles, but would never respond to a question. His articles were always only about Islam, of course. FH appears only when he/she wants to tell us something about Islam – never takes part in any other topic.

They both appear to be like some used car salesman. All smiles until you find a fault, and then they don’t want to know.

Even the Masons have opened a little, but not the Mossies.
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 2:37:12 PM
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Osama Bin Laden has become the reluctant messiah of a new sect called, "I'll Just Believe Any Old Crap I'm Told."

* *

Associated Press, Sept. 16, 2001.

Dubai, United Arab Emirates - Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect, issued a statement Sunday denying that he was behind last week's terror attacks on the United States.

"I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation," said the statement, broadcast by Qatar's Al-Jazeera satellite channel.

In the statement, read out by an Al-Jazeera announcer, bin Laden said that he was used to the United States accusing him every time "its many enemies strike at it."

* *

Did he lie? We are told that Muhammad proved by his living example that he was the most truthful and honest person of his age. How then can Bin Laden be a fundamentalist follower of the Prophet and a blatant liar? You can't have it both ways.

Then again, the Osama in the CIA released video, writes with the wrong hand and wears a gold ring (forbidden by Islam). Look at his chubby face. Frankly, Saddam had better doubles. Let's call this one Osama MkII to aviod confusion.

Taking this back to the point where it all started for most of us, I suggest a thorough and forensic examination of the followers of mammon who spun their dirty deals, insurance frauds and trading scams around the fate of the twin towers.

Cui bono. Who gains?
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 2:45:15 PM
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There...at last a hint of the real Axis of Weasels!
The oligarchs and Bilderbergers, with the latter day Rumsfelds, Cheney's and assorted bum lickers in tow.
(No NOT the Entire US Citizenry as some post submissions would allude to).

These are the bastards of the world (no theology need here).
Trace their roots, and follow their trails of destruction throughout time immemorial to discover they are only bent on the one true evil -$$$$$$$$. No parables of Jesus, no Pentecostal interpretation, no Islamic prophecies, no Buddhist bad kharma - just the purest of evil flowing throughout the ages. Again the naked ape should use its 'logos' in the Classical Greek meaning of logic.

Why is it that the 600 most wealthy personages on Earth have more wealth put together than that of a combined 200,000,000 of the world's poorest? That is the evil we should be fighting tooth and nail against.

So, because Bin Laden and his doppelganger(s)& Deputies (Al Zawahiri) dare re-state their raison-d-etres to the gullible public at large should we swallow it in large chunks or washed down with a crisp Chardonnay, in daintily packaged morsels, thus to savour the idiot fest called popular press/media/ electronic whorehouse?

Now to postulate on the possibility of Commonwealth Games mayhem...hmmm does a regional connection to Jemaah Islamiah sound feasible? Does it smell like a stitch-up borne of an Howardian nightmare with which to validate all the human rights abuses (read: Terror Legislation) yet to be visited upon the subjects of the Crown in dear old Oz?

Dont forget the same caring and sharing government arranged to have shot (in the back of the head) the pilot of the veering Blackhawk helo in Townsville to 'eliminate' the two SASR 'shooters' who actually did the shooting in Port Arthur. Yes JFK is still sharing a bedsitter in Glebe with Elvis, and Harold Holt.

38 shots fired with 35 fatal hits is not the work of a mentally ill 'patsy' my friends!

Be scared, be very scared - of state sponsored terror spawned upon our own shores!
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 8:04:26 PM
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Yes to the poster who came up with the idea - why doesn't Osama lobby for the downfall of the corrupt Saudi royal family? He could do more for Islam and the Arab world by putting his attention into his own people. Worrying about Palestine and Israel seems to be wasted energy. How is Palestine gonna help the average Saudi who is held hostage to the insane corruption and misuse of wealth of a royal dictatprship?
Posted by minuet, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 10:00:59 PM
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Realist and Chris Shaw

Yes its possible that the US has isolated bin Laden somewhere in Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iran. If he is stuck in a cave he’s less of a real threat. If he quietly died he’s even less threatening.

The personification of evil thrust upon bin Laden may indeed be useful for the US. However if it had been Australia that was attacked (and not the US) then even the most anti US conspiracy theorist might want to lash out haphazardly against the alleged murderers and their mates.

So maybe bin Laden is dead and this fact is being kept hidden to maintain the rage - until all America’s Middle Eastern enemies are all “gone” – who knows. I'm more concerned about local issues.

Albie Manton in Darwin

Bin Laden and many al Qaeda partners are very rich and upper middle class. Many have acted poor and simple as a religious gesture to boost recruitment.

Yes JI (an organisation well known to have links with al Qaeda in our region) may do the damage here. Or possibly an unaffiliated (“clean skin”) group within this country – with terrorist visions. Such a group may not have seen it as necessary to travel overseas for training.

Minuet

Osama is doing more than just lobby for the downfall of the corrupt Saudi royal family. One of the central creeds of al Qaeda is to rid Saudi Arabia of the “infidel” both civilian and military. The monarchy’s dependence on Western expatriates is considered “blasphemy” so the reasoning is the monarchy (or at least the current Saudi dynasty) must go.

Al Qaeda is part of a radical Muslim insurgency in Saudi Arabia against the monarchy. Targets include foreigners, Saudi civilians and Saudi security forces. The attacks have killed 91 foreigners and Saudi civilians and wounded 510 people, according to the Saudi government.

I don’t know if Isreal is a high priority target for the Saudi’s in al Qaeda. In the terrorist division of labour al Qaeda may tend to leave Israel to Palestian groups – mainly Hamas at the moment.
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 2 February 2006 12:55:49 AM
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Hi all

Tubley (posted 2:47:03 PM 31/1/06)
Osama or Usama? Does it really matter in his case? Mohammad didn't seem to mind being called Muhammad or Mahomed? Just call him "sir" & kiss his feet & you'd probably avoid the sword?
I agree: George W BUSH is a worry. But show me a capable leader anywhere worldwide. That doesn't diminish the culpability of Usama though.

Leigh (post 3:25:33 PM 31/1/06)
I didn't doubt that you'd spring to your own defence. Admirably & capably I might say.
If this Irfan is a Sydney lawyer, then his logic may prove to be a little allusive. I recall the lawyer stating at TCN 9 Studios in March 2005, that according to the Holy Bible, God (Yahweh) approved of prostitution. He couldn't however be specific.
Well, there are several references to prostitutes & prostitution in Ezekiel - Ezek 16:15,16 & 23:3&7 - but they all refer to them/it as immoral & a curse (spiritual heathens).
Seeing that Judaism, Islam & Christianity are all on the table we may as well be honest. Ishmael was born of the concubine Hagar to Abraham (Gen 16), whilst Isaac was born to Abraham & his wife Sarah (Gen 21). Both Ishmael & Isaac were "blessed of many nations". But Ishmael lived life in hatred & bitterness, "his hand will be against everyone, & everyone's hand against him, & he will live in hostility towards all his brothers." (Gen 16:12)
Doesn't that sound like Usama?

Chainsmoker (post 6:38:36 PM 31/1/06)
Was that Christmas card list or "Happy Festive Season" list? There is a difference.
As to charity, compassion & a desire for peace: I do voluntary work amongst many of the disadvantaged. I am opposed to many of the conflicts which see human suffering, & I am currently involved in a Restorative Justice programme with the person who killed my mum.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Thursday, 2 February 2006 8:03:12 AM
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What about me Count0 I nearly died laughing reading your post. How do you feel about that? Be a little more considerate please.

You quoted Surah 5:32 out of context.

Qur’an 5:32 "because of that We ordained for the children of Israel that if anyone killed a person, not in retaliation for murder, or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind."

Apart from its exemption for murder there is another exemption: “except in retaliation or the spread of mischief.” The “spread of mischief” is “non-Islamic behavior” and a “mischief maker” is anyone who does not “submit to and obey Allah and his Apostle.

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and who do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified, or their hands and their feet shall be cut off on opposite sides, or they shall be exiled. That is their disgrace in this world, and a dreadful torment is theirs in Hell.”

Then: Qur’an 5:34 “Except for those who came back (as Muslims) with repentance before they fall into your power.”

This happens all the time in Islamic scriptures Count0, a peaceful verse is abrogated in favour of the vicious political one.

Listen if you have ears. Islam is not a religion of peace. Don’t take my word for it, look for yourself.

It is a Western idea to be pluralistic and its a contemptible one. Muslims are right to reject it. Religious doctrines are either right or wrong. But pluralism teaches there is no truth. So people don't bother looking for it. PC protects any honest look at Islam.

Islam is a standout, it is bloodthirsty and no theologically trained Muslim can deny they believe Sharia law should apply everywhere. No other religion holds these doctrines. ONLY Mohammedanism.
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Thursday, 2 February 2006 9:09:53 AM
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The Houses of Sa-Ud with their own tangled webs to unweave are just as complicit in the sad regional geo-politik as were (are) the Brits, French, Belgians and the Good Ole Boys.

Does anyone have an inkling as to why the Bosnian/Serb/Croat/Muslim vs Christian charnel house was eventually brought to light?

The only reason - quite small, but very high grade/yeilds of precious metals used in the computer industry. i.e. platinum/iridium. These were in the hidden away mountainous border region near to Slovenia. No initial concern was offered for the victims of this "Ethnic Cleansing...religious based genocide...(or whatever politically correct terms apply.

Muslim friends here in Australia who escaped this horror side-show of history will tell you this. Religion (again) was just an excuse, these people got along with one another for 600 + years in the region, despite the dogmas of empire building clerics (Christian & Muslim) about them.

Who wanted the control over these deposits of precious metals - well 1st guess and you don't get the Kewpie Doll!
Microsoft, McDonnell-Douglas, Raytheon, on & on the list of bastards grows.

Stay tuned for the upcoming series "WHEAT FOR WEAPONS" - Saddam Hussein confesses to gain a plea bargain/sentence reduction with the UN!

Weetbix of Mass Destruction.
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Thursday, 2 February 2006 10:05:04 AM
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1/2

The following is a humble response to explain my views to a wide range of posters who addressed me. The response covers all posters from intellectual moderates to the Christian Taliban movement.

Main points:

Definition of Islam,

To believe in one God, his messengers, holy books, pray, fast, pay the poor dues (% of your assets) and pilgrim once in a life time. Avoid the major sins and do other good deeds illustrated in our Holy book.

Hadith is not part of religion (as it came 2 centuries later). Few hundreds are in use to help interpreting some parts of the Holy Quran and that’s all.

Myth of religious conflicts,

The foundation of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the same since the founder in our faith is the very one God. Judging through history and actions, Jewish and Christians lived amongst Muslims for the last 14 centuries. Jews specifically lived in all the Muslims countries including Mecca and Medina (until the wahhabi movement). Early muslims during and after the time of the prophet had peace treaties with most Jewish tribes. (Refer to historians work: Muir, Sale and recent articles by Dr Sherman Jackson).
Facts are, Christians persecuted Jews until mid last century (Hitler) and many times throughout history Jews hid in Muslim countries (or under Muslims ruling like in Spain) from Christians seeking blood revenge for Jesus (PBUH). Peaceful, tolerant Christianity only emerged mid last century, but until then it was teaching an eye to an eye. Please refer to slavery in the US history and the church position and treatment of slaves.
To be continued..
Posted by Fellow_Human, Thursday, 2 February 2006 10:49:50 AM
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2/2
Islam & Christianity,

Belief in Jesus as a miracle prophet is a must for every Muslim. What we don’t share is the trinity because it conflicts with the first commandment in the Torah and the bible. However, our Holy book states that followers of Jesus have many good believers amongst them. Its none of any Muslim business who chose to believe in what as God states clearly people ‘chose to believe or disbelieve’.

Islam & Judaism,

Another hate myth mainly founded in wahhabi teachings.
Our Holy book refers to many good believers amongst Jews. The criticism for Jews in the Quran is mainly about:
- Not following or manipulating the Torah or Moses teachings (interestingly same criticism can be found in the Bible by Jesus pbuh)
- Rejecting Jesus the Messiah and persecuting him.
- Accusing the Virgin Mary of Adultery (speaking ill of an honest woman is the 4th major sin in Islamic faith).

Islam and self defence,

To struggle (i.e. Jihad) means self struggle; avoid temptations, look after and support your parents, sponsor the orphan and the widow. The ‘self or territory’ defence rules have clear boundaries wherever it is mentioned in the Holy book (‘i.e. fight those who fight you and shall not transgress’). Clear, simple and plane ‘English’.

Self or territory defence is a God given right to every animal and plant on this planet. To claim that a religion is not peaceful because it insists on the right of self defence is naïve and in conflict with laws and basic common sense.

Leigh,

1. There are some intolerant practices by some Muslim sects in existence and I am not denying that.

2. Moderate Muslim is one that practices its spiritual tolerant teachings and co-exist with others and don’t judge people for there is only one judge. It appears to me your definition of a moderate Muslim is an ‘ex-Muslim’ or fatwa best sellers like Rushdie or Manji.

Peace
Posted by Fellow_Human, Thursday, 2 February 2006 10:53:38 AM
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Fellow - Human

Thank you for your explanations.
They raise more querries than they answer.

A basic one is this: If you believe all land is Allah's doesn't it follow that Jihad to recover all land is then acceptable to those professing a moderate belief?
Posted by keith, Thursday, 2 February 2006 1:44:26 PM
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Hi all

Count0 (posted 5:03:16 PM 31/1/06)
There's more than a subtle difference between Mohammad & all other mainstream 'spiritual' leaders. Mohammad lived by the sword. He killed almost all opposition. Buddha, Mahatma GHANDI, & especially Christ didn't act violently. Jesus gave His life. Therein is the role-model. Not all proponents of the world's religions emulate their leaders or prophets.
How could a genuine pro-lifer ever bomb an abortion clinic? That's an absurd assumption. A genuine pro-lifer would oppose abortion, but equally oppose capital punishment, & may even refuse military service.
Regards homosexuality: it is the sin of homosexuality that Christians oppose. They don't despise the person who ought to be lovingly encouraged to change his/her habit(s). In Islamic culture & legal protocols homosexuality is even more detested - Surah 4:16; 7:80; 26:166; 27:56; 29:28. The penalty under Shariah law is a beating for men, & stoning (for women) - from memory.
I can't apologise for your crimes, nor you for mine. All injustice is disgraceful. But mankind is imperfect - "All man(kind) has sinned & falls short of the glory of God (Yahweh)".

Philo (post 6:40:34 PM 31/1/06)
There are some nice Muslims - I've acknowledged that. My hairdresser is one. But I know more of the Qur'an than he does. He's appalled by its contents. I hope he finds Christ.
What individuals understand as the divine authority isn't the problem. The 'problem' is in the understanding of the doctrines & dogma beyond.
Islam is an imam-led religion. Unquestioning obedience. Some portions of Christianity follow the same principles through priest interpretation. Protestantism, in the main, is about self-determination of Scripture. Other religions follow varying means towards understanding.
Only Islam has as its leader (prophet) a man who proposed & enacted violence. Muslims may or may not follow according to what they believe or are told. But they are called to do so.
Wahhabism is not known for its gentle nature. Usama just happens to be amongst the worst of its practitioners.

Belly (post 6:56:26 PM 31/1/06)
Misinformation, apathy & indifference are killers!

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Thursday, 2 February 2006 2:34:10 PM
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I just think if we're going to write about the man, at least spell his name correctly.

Literacy is important. I find it quite creepy that so many American leaders, including George W. Bush, say ‘Osama’ when it’s actually ‘Usama’, and how many of them say ‘nucular’ instead of ‘nuclear’ when talking about weapons of mass destruction.
Posted by tubley, Thursday, 2 February 2006 6:23:49 PM
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" Ah Soh God of the Trogs"
Ah Not who is Ah Soh's Buddish Mentor[Alias Some of Bin Laden,the puckered coit] is given his final council.

Ah Not; Why are you looking between your legs at the mirror?
Ah Soh; I think my orifice is too small.
Ah Not; You mean office.
Ah Soh; Same thing.
Ah Not; Instead of making it bigger,why not have a mirrored wall,it'll be twice as big especially when the sun comes up!
Ah Soh; Brilliant idea! Why do I look the same from all angles?
Ah Not: That is a rhetorical condition of your Ah Soh nature.
[Deleted for objectionable comment]
PS There are lots of Bin Ladens in this world and the original one that inspired this last verse was an arrogant male Aussie who didn't like the size of his office.After Sept 11 it was time to include another arrogant male who cannot see past his own importance.The feminist facists have a similar attitude.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 2 February 2006 8:31:49 PM
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Hi all

Friedrich (post 6:57:19 PM 31/1/06)
Keep on asking those questions (of others)! The below is self-explanatory:
"Fight (qatlova) against such of those to whom the Scripture was given .....". Sura 9:29. [Sura 9 = Al-Taubah = repentance.].

N.B. "qatlova" has been translated by Arab-speaking scholars as "kill". Little ambiguity there.
I'll let Human_Nature respond to your query/statement in the last paragraph. But I know that response by heart & the Koranic source, so if the reply is inaccurate I will make comment.
(31/1/06)

Arjay (post 7:02:12 PM & 7:58:42 PM 31/1/06)
Very clever, though a touch naughty.
Sadly you've destroyed any chance of making another posting for 22-hours. I'll sleep with my spectacles on so that I don't have to find them when next you 'post'.
(31/1/06)

Keith (post 7:06:00 PM 31/1/06)
Your response to Boaz_David:
That is the pragmatic position. There is also the biblical perspective on land ownership which goes to the heart of what the Jews believe (& also those who support Zionism) vs Islam. That stance is more than 4000-years old.
Confirmation is in the following scriptural text, broadly called the Abrahamic Covenant. The scriptures are:
Gen 12:1-3; 13:14-17; 15:1-21; 17:1-8, then 17:9-27; Ezek 36:4-7; 36:22-24; 37:1-13; Gen 23; Lev. 25:23-27; Ezek 43:1-6; Ezek 11; Jer 25:4-11; & Joel 3:1-3. There are cross-references into the NT too. The Jewish position is through Isaac from Abraham.
Meanwhile, the Muslims believe that through Ishmael they have inherent rights to the same land. They claim it, as Islamic territory due to post-624AD occurrences, but also since 1517 until 1917 under Turkish occupation.
More specific are the claims to the two Holy Cities of Mecca & Medina. Those locations are theirs. But they can't have Jerusalem. They built the Al-Aksa Mosque above where Solomon built his temple. The best thing they could do is move the mosque into genuinely owned territories in Iraq, Iran, Syria or Saudi Arabia etc, & give Jerusalem & the Land of Israel back to the Jews. The total landmass of Israel is only about the size of Qatar anyway.
(31/1/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Friday, 3 February 2006 8:30:53 AM
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Arjay: Those Feminist Wimmin Face Painters are more correctly referred to as the Feminazi. They have too much say in the nature of breaking up families. They are anti everything excepting, as you say, their fullness of their own agenda(s).

I believe there is a strong connection between these organisations getting into the ears of policy makers and the 'fear factor' being fostered and promulgated at present to the male population of Australia who are Cannon Fodder age (prospective warriors in the War on Terror).

Their motives are only too obvious to those who have experienced their foaming at the mouth misandry. Remove the testosterone laden and more virile specimens, to leave a society being more and more exposed and de-sensitised to these unnatural ritualisations. No wonder the Indonesian Muslims are up in arms about PLayBoy being sold there.

I am all for individual rights, but it gets over the top, -like TV evangelists at 3.30 AM, and more difficult to digest as the frequency of exposure to it increases.

We saw parallels in WWI with the jingoistic press castigating males who did not gain enlistment into the AIF and other armed forces - the 'White Feather' became a sign of male weaknesses. This now manifests itself in the Family Court and the high suicide rates amongst men who lose custody/care/contact.

So we attempt to divert away & counteract this with a macho:
" Get those big bad Bogeymen who threaten our way of life and our Wimmin..." in response to a manufactured or perceived threat. E.G Al Qaeda. Bin Laden, Saddam and WMD.
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Friday, 3 February 2006 3:38:49 PM
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Fellow-Human,

Islam is a stain that will be eradicated.

Islam is a vicious evil religion-Nick Griffin.

The jigs up son. Who do you think you are fooling? Not everyone is a drop kick. Upset by cartoons in Denmark? No one can draw the "prophet." Blow yourself up and you will enter paradise. Awaiting you will be 72 virgins. God will be impressed. Sex in Heaven. I was under the assumption that Heaven was more about spiritual matters. Islam is about putting women down, make them wear bulldust clothing. Islam is about no other religion being valid. Islam is a perversion akin to child molestation. In Iraq away from the cameras what do the men do to young boys? Islam is the personification of vileness this world had never seen before. Do you really believe that your "friends" are the only ones that are willing to give up their live for a good cause? You make me sick to the stomach.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Friday, 3 February 2006 5:59:27 PM
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Hi all

Albie Manton in Darwin (posted 7:51:36 PM 31/106)
The 72 virgins? 2 of the martyr's wives (or human females), & up to 70 specially 'created' huris. Surah 44:51-54 & 55:49-78 discusses it - except in Pickthall. Sahil MUSLIM's Hadith # 6793, 6794, 6795 & 6797 expand upon it, & ibn-Kathir's commentary on Surah 56:35-37 puts the number at 72.
Ugly ones? Perpetual virginity? There aren't any ugly ones. And Allah makes them virgins again after a 'solid' day in the brothel ... I mean paradise. So, the "huris" are all "the fair & the beautiful ones", "& high-bosomed maidens for companions: ..". Their breasts are "kawa'eb" - swelling & firm; not sagging. Sahih BUKHARI once reported that Mohammad said of himself "that he had been given the power of 40 men in sex." Muhammad ibn SAAD, al-Tabakat al-Kobra, Dar al-Tahir, Cairo 1970, Vol 8, p 139.
If Mohammad could be so 'blessed' then no wonder Usama tries for 'Paradise'. His previous links to the US only equates to the fickleness of alliances. Wasn't Russia our ally on WWII? They were our 'enemy' for 40-years. Friends now? That won't last.
(31/1/06)


Martin ibn Warriq (post 7:51:36 PM & 8:37:10 PM 31/1/06)
You're right: there are degrees of honesty in Islam - & it often has nothing to do with telling the truth.
As previously stated, there are 3 conditions under which it is permissible to lie: (1) to make peace (2) in war, & (3) husbands to their wives.
I agree with your perspectives
(1/2/06)

The Big Fish (post 10:58:57 PM 31/1/06)
Terrorists need impoverished semi-literate people with high dissatisfaction levels. Voila! Their insurgents or martyrs.
To that extent, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq & many of the Middle Eastern countries are not that dissimilar to down-town Flint, Michigan.
From memory, not one of the US Senators or Congressmen sent their children in to battle. I doubt that the bin LADEN family would send any of their children into the fight either - except Usama, who went of his own accord, & is a family outcaste.
(1/2/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:17:19 AM
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Hi all

Count0 (post 8:56:07 PM 31/1/06).
Yes, one death's one too many. Multiple killings by anyone is deplorable.
INACCURACY: your quote isn't quite a true representation of Surah 5:32. Dawood's translation says: "We (the Muslims) laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind; ..".
The 'problem'? Prior to 622AD, even the scattered Israelites was more sophisticated than the wandering Bedouin tribes. Monothesic Muslims wouldn't have spoken. They didn't exist. More importantly, & after fully reading the Qur'an, one discovers the "abrogating & abrogated text" (“An-Nasekh wa Al-Mansoukh”). So, within only a few Ayah (verses) the Qur'an indeed contradicts itself, & your claim, viz:
"Those that make war against Allah & his apostle .. shall be slain or crucified, or have their feet & hands cut off on alternative sides, or ..". Surah 5:34.
Even clearer language is:
"Fight (qatlova) against such of those to whom the Scripture was given .....". Sura 9:29. [Sura 9 = Al-Taubah = repentance.].

N.B. "qatlova" is translated by Arab-speaking linguists as "kill". That's pretty conclusive.
Also, "If you do not go to war, he (Allah) will punish you sternly, ..." Surah 9:37. One rarely goes to war - I'm facetious - just to march in a line.
(1/2/06)

Planetagenet (post 11:37:21 PM 31/1/06)
Great lateral thinking! You're possibly right. I look forward to more of your posts.
(1/2/06)

Friedrich (post 6:09:54 AM 1/2/06)
Another accurate posting by yourself.
Refer to my prior posting for Islamic text references to affirm your thinking.
The 'problems' we have are as a direct result of our ongoing 'tolerance'. That espouses all thinking is of equal value. Society rarely defines anything in absolutes anymore. Enter "Mr Osama". Now we're re-questioning our previous thinking. The difficulty? We discarded many of the values & crucibles that we once held as our standards. It may take us a decade or more to accept that those very values we threw away are the ones we now seek.
(1/2/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:44:49 AM
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Sorry Grahamy.My humour is sometimes a little foul.But for those who missed the ending.Ah Soh was overcome with the gravity of his own importance,turned into a black hole and disappeared up his own fundamentals,which will be probably be an appropiate ending for all who pervert the concept of their God to attain personal power.

Some groups need to develop a sense of humour before anyone will take them seriously in this country.We all need to develop the insight and have the courage to laugh at our own foibles.The Irish have been laughing at themselves for decades.When humour dis-arms aggression, then perhaps violence and war will be less likely.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 4 February 2006 12:15:21 PM
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Arjay - I fully appreciate your apologies - which really is to all of us not just Graham.

As for your final explanation of Ah Soh - I think if you'd written that in the first place not only was it a lot funnier than your original, but you wouldn't have been deleted at all.

Now, humour - I agree 100% that there are groups that really need to lighten up. Apart from our earnest and dogmatic fundie christian contingent what IS going on in Denmark?

Religion by its nature is ripe for ribald and a target for satire. And Islam is no exception.

For those who want to know what the fuss is about the link below is to the controversial cartoons. They really are very tame. But be warned Denmark is under sanction by Muslim extremists displaying the same level of humour as our afore mentioned christians.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

Personally I found the virgins joke funny, but then I am probably marked for hell anyway - the Nordic Hell I hope.
Posted by Scout, Saturday, 4 February 2006 12:30:51 PM
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A Saudi couple, Ahmed and Layla, preparing for their wedding, meet with their Mullah for counselling.
The Mullah asks if they have any last question before they leave.
Ahmed asks, "We realize it's tradition in Islam for men to dance with men, and women to dance with women. But, at our wedding reception, we'd like your permission to dance together."
"Absolutely not," says the Mullah. "It's immoral. Men and women always dance separately."
"So after the ceremony I can't even dance with my own wife?"
"No," answered the Mullah, "It's forbidden in Islam."
"Well, okay," says Ahmed, "What about sex? Can we finally have sex?"
"Of course!" replies the Mullah, "Allah Akbar! Sex is OK within marriage, to have children!"
"What about different positions?" asks the man.
"Allah Akbar! Mafi Mushkila (no problem)," says the Mullah.
"Woman on top?" Ahmed asks.
"Sure," says the Mullah. "Allah Akbar. Go for it!"
"Doggy style?"
"Sure! Allah Akbar!"
"On the kitchen table?"
"Yes, yes! Allah Akbar!"
"Can I do it with all my four wives together on rubber sheets with a bottle of hot oil, a couple of vibrators, leather harnesses, a bucket of honey and a porno video?"
"You may indeed. Allah Akbar!"
"Can we do it standing up?"
"No, absolutely not!" says the Mullah."
"Why not?" asks the man.
"Because that could lead to dancing!"

http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/categorie/46044
see some pictures of islamists reacting to the cartoons
Posted by meredith, Saturday, 4 February 2006 12:38:10 PM
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LittleAgreeableBuddy,

Thanks.

Islam is a wicked vicious faith. It has no place in respectable society. The bulk of it's followers would seem to have iqs of roughly 75. Marrying your first cousin is a recipe for mental retardation. If the practice has been going on for hundreds of years the offspring will be knuckle heads, which they certainly are. Islam is about treating women like they are sub-human, making them wear outrageous dress that must be unbearable on hot days. Islam is about raping women and then hosing them down. Is 55 years enough? Islam is about the importation of heroin to make an evil buck. Islam is about growing poppy. Islam is about being faithful to Islam and sponging off the country you migrate to. Islam is about having babies so that governments give you money so that your lazy husband can stay at home and smoke his water pipe.

There are a growing number of non-muslims who are prepared to stand up tp this evil. They don't need 72 virgins in Heaven to fight the good fight. They won't come out at night like the filthy cowards do.

Islam is a vicious wicked faith.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Saturday, 4 February 2006 1:14:54 PM
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I was concerned when I made my previous post that I would be encouraging the anti-any-kind-of-muslim-mob. I know from Meredith's consistently vitriolic rant against muslims that she fits that description.

That's not to say I didn't find her joke above funny - I did. What I have problems with is that she always indulges in vitriol against fundie muslims - yet never against fundie christians. This is unequivocally biased.

In a (probably) vain attempt to keep it equal I submit the following website for your entertainment:

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/hogwash.html

To to all with a sense of humour.
Posted by Scout, Saturday, 4 February 2006 1:22:27 PM
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Scout,

"What I have problems with is that she always indulges in vitriol against fundie muslims - yet never against fundie christians. This is unequivocally biased."

Exactly!

To extend on this comment: A cousin of mine, who is a very strict Christian, once broke-up with one of the most beautiful girls I'd ever seen simply because she was a ballroom dancer. When I asked him why, he said it was because dancing is evil. When I asked him why dancing was evil, he said it was because it leads to sex.

The neocons, Christian or not, fail to see that Christianity has just as much blood on it's hands as Islam does. Perhaps even more when you look at the last 2 millenniums.

It's this understanding of The Left that has The Right accusing them of somehow being traitors or sympathising with terrorists. Things aren't as black and white as they'd like to think.
Posted by Mr Man, Sunday, 5 February 2006 9:52:41 AM
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Nice Poem Arjay, although it lost something after editing.

Meredith, liked you joke re dancing.

Darn it my partner as saying how her grandparents were aware of the sin of dancing, they were not muslim but I think pentecostal.

As for dear osama or usama, whatever, using the "O" version he is an anagram of "Am One Bad Snail" of course alternatively he would be "Am Une Bad Snail" which if you like mixing English and French might be OK but personally I think all we need to find is a blackbird with an appetite to drop this "bad snail" from an extraordinary height, alternatively using the french spelling... and the french cullinary practices, maybe boiled in oil with a little garlic would be an appropriate passing.

And for all the stuff going on about muslims not liking the bodily fluids being taken out of their particular religion, they really should grow up and get over it. Respect for other peoples right of expression even when it is in bad taste is a test of the enduring nature and strength of all religions. Descent into censorship is not a place we should be prepared to even contemplate a return to.
Posted by Col Rouge, Sunday, 5 February 2006 1:43:39 PM
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One and All. Thanks for your humour in recent posts. If we cannot laugh at our own human foibles then we have indeed lost our 'humanity'.

Perhaps in the way the Irish look at themselves there could be an answer, unfortunately this is not the way of some amongst us today.
Too serious, too busy, too far up themselves. The Russians have an altogether different spin on that one.

Unfortunately, I'm off to work in wilder parts of this wide brown land to ensure Mr Costello's retirement fund is adequately catered for. Email access here is not reliable.

Good luck to You all and Carpe diem!
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Sunday, 5 February 2006 3:16:08 PM
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Chris Shaw,

I printed your post and took it to Timothy Leary's love child who read it and then proceeded to eat it. I asked why and he said that you stole his Greatful Dead records and that was his revenge. What a trip man.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Sunday, 5 February 2006 5:21:09 PM
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Hi all

Kenny (post 9:01:43 AM 1/2/06)
Not all religious leader preach & espouse violence. That is an unfair & untruthful statement.
Your quote: "the goals of Christian Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists are the same." is inaccurate.
Demonstrate your argument(s), about violence, giving quotes (with references) where Christ said kill or harm another human being. He didn't. Show me where the Hindu (all sects), Buddhist (all sects), the Parsismist (Zoroastrian), Judaic & especially the Jainist foundational religious leaders, or their text, were hateful & incited violence. Muhammad was unique amongst leaders & prophets - he was a ruthless, military leader who documented his deeds & was supported in this documentation by others who witnessed his actions.
Most (really all) Christians - especially nominal - will disobey some of the Ten Commandments. If they aren't Christ-focussed they'll struggle with some of the first 4. The next most likely to suffer is # 10 - all of humanity contravenes that one.
Having said that, people who follow any religion - & atheism, Humanism etc are religions - don't always emulate their leaders.
There is nothing wrong with being a fundamentalist if the fundamentals are high ethics, morals, compassion, truth & the belief in racial equality.
You need to understand the semantics of language, & the connotation behind words. "Sick" is being unhealthy, not 'fantastic'. "Fundamental" means basic or essential. A fundamentalist seeks to adhere to truth. A "fundamentalist" is not necessarily a terrorist or a violent person - often the contrary. The doctrines will determine their path. Bin LABEN's is determined by his doctrines & dogma.
(1/2/06)

BOAZ_David (post 9:10:17 AM 1/2/06)
Well stated & accurately referenced.

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Sunday, 5 February 2006 5:51:59 PM
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Hi all

Realist (post 9:11:05 AM 1/2/06)
No one should condone some of what the CIA has done in the past & may do in the future. But bin LADEN had choices too.
As to whether he's alive or dead: none of us will really probably ever know. If he is a figment of imagination then it was another guy, possibly called Archmed Archmed, who did it. Who cares what his name was/is? He's a bad 'bastard' anyway, who ought to be incarcerated to protect others who suffer because of his twisted sense of values - based on the Qur'an, Sunna & Hadith teachings.
Oh I was starting to get a little morbid thinking about allthis man kills man stuff, then I read your last sentence, "Wake me when it ends." Should I send over the stimulants, set my alarm clock or simple follow your lead?
(1/2/06)

Leigh (post 2:37:12 PM 1/2/06)
A great American business associate of mine from yester-year once said:
"If someone is going down the wrong road, he doesn't need motivation to speed him up. What he needs is education to turn him around."
I guess that's why we have a lot of good people willing to spend their time posting on these sites. Our hope is that those who know less than we will learn from us - just as we learn from those who are better-informed than us.
Masons? Now don't get me started. Let's focus of Osama bin Lately.
(1/2/06)

Minuet (post 10:00:59 PM 1/2/06)
I understand your comment. But what it fails to recognise is - the belief within Islam - that the lands which they conquered & occupied post 624AD belongs to them & not the rest of humanity. Further, because they believe that all the world belongs to Allah, their underlying hope & aim is to convert all nations to Islam. Pretty simple! Can you imaging "planet earth" as a despotic theocracy?
(1/2/06)

Plantagenet (post 12:55:49 AM 2/2/06)
Well answered!
(2/2/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Sunday, 5 February 2006 6:00:28 PM
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Keith,

What you refer to as God’s land in the Holybook was in reference to when persecuted you can emigrate. Last I checked it was not Muslims who invaded and slaughtered natives in India, Africa, the Americas and Australia.

Fuhrer Friedrich,

As mentioned above, my posting addressed moderate intellects to Christian Taliban. I excluded religious perverts on purpose. Sounds like you need an enemy to live, go back to “Lord of the rings"

L.A. Buddy,

In my comment above, I made it clear that Hadith is not part of the Islamic faith and few of it are used for interpretations.

Another 'copy & paste' expert pretending to be an intellect. You fell into the Merediths too soon :-)
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 6 February 2006 8:48:41 AM
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F.H. (Mullah/bishop Boaz here :)....

your suggestion that the Hadith not being part of Islamic faith wellll... I think you need a *pat* :)

I kinda wish it was YOU in those crowds in Syria and Lebanon where they are holding up signs which are based on the Hadith about those mocking/insulting the prophet should be killed. I don't know any specific one actually, but I've seen some 'cumulative' evidence and the fatwahs of some of the major schools if Islam do feel it is legal.

The cartoon violence is just proving to the West that 'Muslims' in reality want to force/impose 'Sharia' law on us by either trade sanctions or yelling loud enough with death threats... I think one I saw this morning was 'cut up the cartoonists and send the pieces to all corners of the globe' hmmm now I wonder where 'that' came from ? aah.. now I remember it was done by the Moorish invaders of Spain.. they cut up some animal but told the onlookers it was some of their leaders or something.

F.H. enjoy your wonderful freedom from violent 'ranting religious' mobs here in Aussie land mate :) (except for the lefists and 'so called' anti racists) and I reserve the legal right to make cartoons of your prophet anytime.. under our law.. not that I'd make them :)

But its a bit silly doing that.. much more material available in the Quran and hadith and histories anyway.. more effective I think.

Please alert your fellow Muslims about the new anti semitic cartoons now coming out in the Arab world.. kinda hypocritical and childish, that they say "We don't insult religions" but insulting whole races and maybe calling them 'apes' is ok ? :)

Or describing Christians as (add various derogatory names) from the Quran.

Aah.. we have much to teach you yet young Jedi :)

Mullah Boaz signing off

*Peace* (with a harsh "mullah" like frown :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 6 February 2006 11:04:54 AM
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Fellow-Human,

I laughed out loud when I read your reference to myself as Adolf. It is a good one and I acknowledge it.

Your faith is vicious and wicked. What's the story with women having to cover up their faces, female circumcision, women not even being second class. Vicious wicked.

About fifteen years ago I was working with a muslim fellow and I asked him about female circumcision. He told me that women can still enjoy sex. It was just to stop them feeling horny. Vicious wicked.

The Danish embassy in Damascus set on fire. This is an embassy mind you. Vicious wicked.

Protestors in London promising a repeat of the underground bombings. Vicious wicked.

Osama bin Laden, friend of all muslims worldwide.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Monday, 6 February 2006 12:54:27 PM
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The anti Muslim cartoon issue has now seen additional violence in Lebanon and a warning from some Muslim groups in Australia.

Everybody knows that Muslim terrorism amd mob violence is a scourge but this issue is not helped by soley knocking the religion.

I get the feeling that many on this string are unable to think outside the repetitive religious dimension.

What about the changing economic and social trends amongst Muslim countries?

What are bin Laden's motivations other than religion?

What are the nationalities and social groups who make up al Quaeda?

These are all relevant but I suspect issues such as these are not on the front page of the newspaper.

An excellent link on bin Laden is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden .
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 6 February 2006 1:34:26 PM
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Herr Friedrich,

Sorry just realised you are a victim of an ‘ignoramium overdose’. Female circumsition is African tribalism and not religion related. ‘Vemen’ in Islam “ie in the Quran are mentioned as equal beings. Let me guess, the Bible says nothing about ‘vemen’ and also nothing about Islam (yet it mentions everyzing else)…indeed!

Anyway, get a life but for the record and seriously on the Danish issue:

I knew of the boycott at the street level but was surprised at the embassy burning incident. Its shameful. Although I find the mockery of prophets as religious symbols are too much (ie Prophet Jesus in urine and Prophet Mohamed with a Bomb).

Peace and hell wishes for your uncle Adolph (who vas a devout Christian by the way)

Boaz,

Long time no argument Mr ‘Mosqueteer’. Now that you are a freedom of speech warrior, should we call to abolish anti-semitism laws because they are against freedom of speech?

Vat is ur views, Herr crusader generale?
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 6 February 2006 2:03:47 PM
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Hi all

Chris Shaw, Carlisbrook 3464 (posted 2:45:15 PM 1/2/06)
Are you serious or joking?! We can't prove Osama's existence. He's disowned by his own family - assuming they exist.
Says Osama (supposedly), "I stress that I have not carried out this act, ..". Maybe not personally - otherwise he'd be scraps in a dumpster.
Your question: "How then can Bin Laden be a fundamentalist follower of the Prophet and a blatant liar?" Answer? They're synonymous. Study the Qur'an, Sunna & Ahadith. Muslims are permitted to lie (1) to heal a rift (2) in Jihad (for Allah) & (3) to their wives - Sura 16:106 & 66:1-5. And El Itadayah, Vol 4, p 81 & the "Muslim Doctrine of God", p41.
They're forbidden to kill? They should burn their Qur'an. It says the opposite:
"Fight (qatlova) against such of those to whom the Scripture was given .....". Sura 9:29. (Sura 9 = Al-Taubah = repentance.). [qatlova = to kill]
Whether the video depicts Usama, a CIA clone, or Police Commissioner Christine NIXON, matters little. He's admitted to other crimes; his family disowned him, &; the Saudi US Ambassador has distanced himself from him. Osama "doesn't weigh the full quid" no matter how he's evaluated.
(1/2/06)

Martin ibn Warriq (post 9:09:53 AM 2/2/06)
You've got it right. Now others need comprehension & understanding.
Islamic doctrines are not peaceful texts - regardless of claims. The "abrogated & abrogating .." shows it clearly. Text must be compared to text (within the Quran). The Quran corrects itself frequently, viz:
(i) ".. who created the heavens & the earth in 6-days .." Surah 7:51. So too 10:3. BUT ...
(ii) ".. created the earth in 2-days .." Surah 41:9, then ".. in 4-days provided .." Surah 41:10, next "In 2-days he (Allah) formed the sky .." Surah 41:12. Heh, 2+4+2=8, & he (Allah) hasn't finished yet, so this one might be a 20-day creation.
That's serious contradiction.
So, Osama must be confused. Some Muslims may chose peace. They're not obliged to - refer to Surah 9:29 amongst the myriad of other quotables.
(2/2/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Monday, 6 February 2006 9:04:18 PM
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Hi all

Fellow_Human (post 10:49:50 AM 2/2/06) - & Attention ALL
Respectfully, the definition of "Islam" is "submission". Derivation?The Arabic word "aslama" meaning "to submit". The Qur'an says, “Obey Allah and the messenger (Muhammad)” Surah 3: 32, 132. Islam DOES NOT come from the Arabic word "salama" - some Muslims say that. It's not true. "Muslim" (singular), = "one who submits". Muslimon (plural) = "those who submit".
Muslims believe in "One God". That's great. So do Jews, Christians, & possibly Parsists - some believe Parsism is dualistic. But "the nature of god" differs between monotheists.
The "5 Pillars of Islam" (Arkanu'd-din)? Easy. Your "Muslim Creed" (Surah 4:135)? No problem. The Surat? Again, no worries. Your 8 annual festivals? OK. I was interested in Islam when I was an Atheist. I obtained several copies of the Qur'an & the Hadiths when I began studying.
Allah is not the same god as Yahweh - their natures are very different.
Mohammad's father's name was Abd-Allah - his mother? Aminah. His uncle's name was Obied-Allah. Mohammad's full name was Abu Al-qusim Muhammad 'Abd Allah ibn Abd Al-Muttalib ibn Hashim. That is recorded in Arabic history. If (god) Allah didn't reveal himself to Mohammad until 610/612AD, when he was 40-years of age, then how could Mohammad & his older relatives have all been named Allah? The answer? Islam has its roots in a pagan Arabic polytheseistic religion. That is revealed in Surah 53:17 - though the Qur'an tries to then refute it. But Allah was a concept & a name prior to 610AD. [to be continued ...
(2/2/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Monday, 6 February 2006 9:29:21 PM
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L A Buddy,

1. Comments re your Arabic language: Aslama is not an origin of word in Arabic. All origins in Arabic language are on the 3 letters ‘faeel’ weight which is "salama" (sa’la’ma’= peace, safety)Anybody who studied Arabic more than 6 months would tell you that.

2. Origin of the word Allah: the word Allah is used in the Arabic bible (Please check the Van dyek bible of Egypt). The word itself Yahweh (Hebrew), Elahi (Aramaic), Allah (Arabic) are used for the very same meaning. Allah is a preferred word because it have no plural and no sex (God is neither male nor female and there is no ‘it’ in the Arabic language). Also you mix pronounciation signs as it changes depending on its position in the sentence. The word Elah (pronounced by Jesus PBUH as Elahi in the Aramaic Bible when he was on the cross).

3. Quran is probably the clearest scripture on monotheism I ever examined. The word “I” or “we” swap places for self glorifying and are inline with language and with the Torah. The statement “God is One’, and ‘if there was more than it would be corrupt’ is used more than any other Abraham faith scripture.

Anyway, not sure what your religion is and I don’t care, but I am surprised at the level of anger and attacks on our faith. You are living a myth often believed by African missionaries that Muslims don’t know their religion or other religions.

In an earlier posting I read about your mum. My condolences and sympathy although late. It hard to lose a parent, I know because I lost both.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 9:02:44 AM
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LA Buddy

Fellow Human is a far more generous and patient person than I. For one, I find your posts too convoluted with all the referencing and quotes. For example, I missed the news regarding your mother. I am sorry to hear that - I lost my father 30 years ago.

I'm sure you have many relevant comments to make, please make them a little more reader friendly.

FH, I too find the level of hatred expressed by many posters here to be extreme. Particularly as these posters apparently do not personally know many muslims as friends or neighbours. These posters are either christian or anti-religion. While I find formal religion hard to empathise with, I believe in tolerance - something these afore-mentioned posters don't.

As such, they fail repeatedly to make the distinction between al-Qaida and mainstream Islam. Interestingly, many of these same posters make similar assumptions about feminism, that is they see women wanting equality as some kind take over bid for female supremacy. I can only conclude that these people are very easily threatened and insecure. If their self-esteem was firm they would have no problem with people who are a little different. And it is a small difference; we are all human and in the greater scheme our differences are superficial.
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 9:30:18 AM
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Scout and F.H.

a small point here.. "hate" ? -I see passion, I see vigour, I see determination, but.. I don't see any one suggesting 'cut the heads of the criminal muslims for insulting Christ' But I DO see many signs like that in the British protests. "kill those who insult Islam" lots and lots of signs.. in FREE Britain.... I mean.. gee...
they are trying to committ suicide.. its only a matter of time b4 the Brits actually respond in kind... but somehow... this is lost of missed on those rampaging screaming crowds.

I don't see 'hate' in these pages, nor do I even see it in Europe in response to the obvious and unambiguous total hate being directed against them. Have you seen any of the interviews with Danes ? They are not emotional, they are humble, thoughtful and look at it in a rational way.

Nuclear Armed Pakistan's foreign minister said "There is no such thing as an 'over' reaction to this" A friend of mine emailed me this morning about a story he read in the paper about some Lebanese Muslims from the UK using 'UNpublished'cartoons, much worse than what was published while visiting Lebanon and middle east.. stirring up trouble. (Yet to verify this)

How many times have you seen "cut up Alchemist, kill him.. burn him.. behead him" after one of his incessant diatribes scorning and riduculing Christ and 'The Religious' ? I think 'zero' :) So, please you and F.H. stop attributing 'hate' when you refer to the emotions of those posting disagreeable thoughts here.

Have you noticed the emotion in 'Proud to be Indonesian's posts ?
P.S. as one Muslim cleric said this morning (o'seas) "This has delivered the Muslim world into the hands of Osama Bin Ladin."

If that occurrs, then I pity Muslims in Australia. (and Christians in Muslim countries) Anglo's don't organize themselves because we rely on the police, but pushed too far, well.. it remains to be seen.
More armed men in the SSAA than our regular army.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 11:52:25 AM
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Boazy

What's your point about the "SSAA" (Shorthanded Sailing Association of Australia) mate?

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 12:17:25 PM
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BD

For your edification

"Islam is a vicious wicked faith.

Posted by FRIEDRICH, Saturday, 4 February 2006 1:14:54 PM"

Repeated twice within the one post.

I rest my case.

Cheers m'dear
Posted by Scout, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 10:20:18 AM
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Boaz,

Why on earth is it a common theme to call lies, deception, and misrepresentation 'passion'?

In a public document on the CTF issue last year, the judge asked the pastor 'you quoted verse 38 & 40 from the Quran, why didn't you quote verse 39 which explains the context? The pastor response was he "didn't have the time"!!

How can you claim to be missionaries, pastors, blabber about Jesus this and Jesus that if you are dishonest and unethical?
Islam and Christianity have opposing views on Jesus (PBUH), but do you really believe the 'means to an end' approach you are using will please your Jesus? I think not.

So to you, coach, Kaktuz, the Fried Rich, LABuddy, etc..I would like to suggest a more appropriate symbol......May I suggest Pinnochio?
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 11:29:50 AM
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Hi all

Albie Manton in Darwin (post 8:04:26 PM 1/2/06)

Sure there are some things that I don't like about RUMSFELD, CHENEY & GWB. But they aren't the focus of this post. I can accept that the Saudi Royal family deserves some criticism too. But would anyone seek Osama as the president of Saudi Arabia &/or the USA concurrently. How about we give him Australia to govern? Surely the world would be worse off?

That 600 command more wealth than 200-million is a tragedy, & certainly an inequity. But look to where the affluence of any nation is equally shared & one finds political regimes of oppression. The assumption that all humans can "manage" wealth competently is to ignore the inherent skills of the individual, & indeed their motivations & ideals. Isn't it interesting how those who win huge gambling windfalls are often "broke" within years?

Are you a cohort of Tony PITT, Terry WORTHING & others? Mind you, I agree with you over Martin BRYANT: I was amongst the top-30 shooters in Australia with a score of 584 out of 600 & I couldn't have achieved a 1:1.66 kill ratio attributed to BRYANT using an AR 15 at a 12' distance shooting from the hip with the wrong hand - BRYANT is a left-hander. If the prerequisite to accuracy is mental instability & no experience - BRYANT only every fired about 20 shots from an air-rifle - then all we need in our ADF are psychotics on Prozac. They'll out-shoot any terrorist. But this posting's intent isn't to prove or disprove "conspiracy theories".

I also think that we need to question our government. But finding a road to democracy & peaceful co-existence in the Islamic culture & with Muslims has proven to be the most challenging peace initiative on earth since 524AD. Bin LADEN, according to his own family, epitomises the worst of what is practised by his fellow Wahhabists.

Maybe the world needs to ask, "Is democracy for everyone?" & act accordingly. That may mean that certain cultures & beliefs require the possibility of segregation?
(1/2/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Friday, 10 February 2006 10:10:46 AM
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Hi all

.... [continued from my 9:29:21 PM 6/2/06 post to Human_Being]

“Jabir heard the Prophet say: A Muslim is he from whose hand & tongue the Muslims are safe.” Sahih Muslim, Hadith # 14. That says much about the covert nature of Islam - unfortunately. It doesn't say: ".. from whose hand & tongue all mankind is safe - especially those who don't believe in Islam."

Human_Being, I believe that you are a decent individual. I don't doubt that you are really earnest in your endeavours, & I also think that we would "get along" if we met. I have similar discussions with Keysar TRAD, but we remain friends. We disagree, but we try to always do it respectfully.

Concerning your many other comments: I could spend a day refuting many of them with quoted references, giving page & line numbers. I do not see the value in that at this stage - maybe someone else might like to respond(?). However, it is probably sufficient to say that it is wise to continue dialogue.
(2/2/06)

Keith (post 1:44:26 PM 2/2/06)

Precisely. And that's why Islam has to be 'challenged'. Questions must be raised about the non-conciliatory aspects of its text, & especially where it is in conflict with itself. To not do so puts all non-Muslims at risk of persecution, because, unlike all other 'mainstream' religious text, where God (Yahweh) extracts His punishment upon the disobedient, the Qur'an calls for the followers of Islam to be the vengeful. That is the main but subtle difference which few people comprehend.

Is it any wonder that Osama/Usama bin LADEN acts as he does - given that he isn't a CIA 'plot' or an actor living in exile with Elvis & Santa Claus, just round the corner from Quintex's Christopher SKASE.
(2/2/06)

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Friday, 10 February 2006 10:17:26 AM
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Hi all

This post has been quiet for nearly a month. Let's not forget Usama!

Tubley (post 6:23:49 PM 2/2/06)

Someone has previously mentioned that. You'll see that I've complied - I'd hate to mistakenly be called LittleArgumentativeBuddy.

Strange that GWB can't get his mouth around correct English - not that Americans speak it anyway. "Aggravate", which means "to make worse" in the place of "annoy" which means "to irritate". Even our Leyton HEWITT copies the drug-dealers of down-town LA - wearing his cap back-to-front (symbolically) telling everyone that he's a 'drug-dealer'.

Meanwhile shy Monica LEWINSKI didn't have any 'problem' getting her mouth around the appendage of a very silent Bill CLINTON. He later uttered the infamous words: "I did not have sex with that woman (Monica Lewinski)!" Pity that he lied to the American people about the 1996 & 1997 Budgets, too.

Is it any wonder poor old Usama hides in a cave to escape the depravity of the West?
(2/2/06)

TO: All
Something to lighten the 'load' (for us all) & considering the seriousness of this topic:
"Narrated Aisha: Allah's Apostle (Mohammad) heard a man reciting the Quran at night, & said, "May Allah bestow His mercy upon him of such & such verses of such & such Suras, which I was caused to forget." Vol 6 (Bukhari) Hadith # 558. [See also # 562.]
So, even Mohammad didn't remember what (supposedly) Allah revealed to him. What else did Mohammad forget? If Mohammad was far from 'perfect' then:
(1) why would Muslims want to follow a 'flawed' leader;
(2) how much 'less-perfect' must Usama be?
And:
"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, 'If a house fly falls into the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (into the drink) because one wing has the disease & the other wing has the cure (for the disease).'." Vol 4 (Bukhari) Hadith # 537. [See also # 673.]
My Islamic 'cousins': send me your addresses - I'll start collecting flies for you. Could Usama be suffering from a 'fly' disease rather than insanity?

Cheers all
Posted by LittleAgreeableBuddy, Thursday, 2 March 2006 2:52:22 PM
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