Big Al.

I have no hate for anyone, I argue, I challenge, I annoy and I have met friends on OLO because of this. Hate is a useless emotion I gave up years ago.

Come on admit it David van Gend has written for pro-life journals, is trotted out to the media as an expert on medical ethics, and is a devout practicing Catholic.

My first post on this subject was a criticism of the lack of acknowledgement of Dr van Gend’s well known views on this issue. Instead we had information that he was a GP from Toowoomba.

My views on stem cell transplants are purely selfish. I probably know more than a GP from Toowoomba. I am in the terminal phase of Chronic Lymphocytic Leukaemia. I don’t say this for any sympathy it is just a fact.
This disease may be cured by stem cell research; adult or even autologous stem cell transplants have a high mortality rate and always fail eventually.

With adult stem cell transplants there are two risks, graft versus host disease and the immune system of the donor. With a cell line taken from embryonic stem cells both of these problems are removed.

Don’t give me crud about growing teeth, cloning humans, the rights of the embryo. I know how important stem cell research is for my friends with CLL. Too late for me.

Go back to reading your Bible and pro-life literature. Your knowledge on this issue is very limited and a regurgitation of dogma is counter productive.

I refuse to have my choices determined by a group of people who have a moral and ethical view that is an anathema to me.

Why does the (Roman) Catholic Church think it has the right to impose its views on others? Why have an enquiry into cloning. Let’s just ask the pope what he thinks.

Report card on Al “Tries hard but could do much better”. I almost forgot the most important thing, don’t group me with Yabby, you never know what I may come up with next if I become his ilk.

Martin, I remain unconvinced.

>>Faith is based on reasonable evidence. Read Othello and what happens bcz of his lack of trust or King Lear and his lack of trust.<<

Lear and Othello are fictional characters.

Faith is consistently defined along the lines of "a confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing". No mention of the presence or absence of evidence. In fact, most observers concur that faith begins at precisely the point where evidence is missing, or becomes contradictory.

And dear Greenleaf was hardly unbiased in his approach when weighing “evidence”.

"The proof that God has revealed himself to man by special and express communications, and that Christianity constitutes that revelation, is no part of these inquiries. This has already been shown, in the most satisfactory manner by others, who have written expressly upon this subject. Referring therefore to their writings for the arguments and proofs, the fact will here be assumed as true."

There would be some objections, I'm sure, if that was the basis of our justice system. Space prohibits a full rundown of similarly dubious Greenleaf assertions, but there are more than a few.

>>The onus is on you to show how Christianity could survive against such an antagonistic surrounding culture with constant persecution if Christ was just a ‘good guy’. Why be martyred for that? <<

It is not up to me to assess someone historical character's state of mind, especially with no supporting material from the individual himself.

Rex, You are attributing something sinister to the Catholic church, organisations or individuals lobbying and seeking public suport for or against various issues. They are certainly not the only ones doing something which is quite legitimate in a democratic country. How about the Secular Humanists [which some posters might belong to] the homosexual lobby, the green lobby, the Marxists and the Freemasons? Some of those don't advertise their affiliations , but use their positions in the media and other places to influence public opinion, or otherwise help their cause.

In the past, Catholics HAVE been persecuted by people in power making the practice of their religion extremely dificult e.g. Ireland over many decades, Mexico in the 1920's, and, along with other Christians, in the various Communist countries fom 1919 onwards.

Even today, efforts are being made to silence Christians concerned about homosexuality. Your aim to confine decision making to people with no religious affiliations, is blatant discrimination and reveals your aim is to
effectively destroy all religious input in social and political questions, and have athiests making all the important decisions. I believe Yabby and Steve would agree with you, but don't expect to win.

Al

I am still waiting for you to address the issues in this thread, Don't retreat into you comfort zone and discuss religion. Come on be big and debate cloning with me.

It is you who will lose, my interest is selfish and personal.

Steve, Glad you asked. I was going to follow on, but you beat me to it.
I have just come upon a new site from the New Scientist on January 23. It says: " A stem cell has been found in adults which can turn into every single tissue in the body. "It might turn out to be the most important cell ever discovered."

Further down it goes on:"The cells were found in the bone marrow of adults by Catherine Verfaille at the University of Minnesota.. "Extrordinary claims require extraordinary proof. and though the team has published little, a patent application seen by the New Scientist shows the team has carried out extensive experiments." "These confirm that the cells dubbed multipotent adult progenitor cells or MAPC's, have the same potential as ESC's."

Anyway, have a look yourself. I'm sorry that your illness is so advanced, but I still favour adult stem cell research.

Finally, It was Yabby, and Rex and yourself who introduced the anti-religious element into the thread. I felt I had to respond to some of the remarks.

background, I have read the PubMed article that the New Scientist reported on. Not quite the same.

A bit of education about plasticity in multipotent stem cells.
Hematopoietic stem cells give rise to all the types of blood cells: red blood cells, B lymphocytes, T lymphocytes, natural killer cells, neutrophils, basophils, eosinophils, monocytes, macrophages, and platelets. Bone marrow stromal cells (mesenchymal stem cells) give rise to a variety of cell types: bone cells (osteocytes), cartilage cells (chondrocytes), fat cells (adipocytes), and other kinds of connective tissue cells such as those in tendons. neural stem cells in the brain give rise to its three major cell types: nerve cells (neurons) and two categories of non-neuronal cells—astrocytes and oligodendrocytes. Epithelial stem cells in the lining of the digestive tract occur in deep crypts and give rise to several cell types: absorptive cells, goblet cells, Paneth cells, and enteroendocrine cells. Skin stem cells occur in the basal layer of the epidermis and at the base of hair follicles. The epidermal stem cells give rise to keratinocytes, which migrate to the surface of the skin and form a protective layer. The follicular stem cells can give rise to both the hair follicle and to the epidermis.

The following list offers examples of adult stem cell plasticity that have been reported during the past few years.
Hematopoietic stem cells may differentiate into: three major types of brain cells (neurons, oligodendrocytes, and astrocytes); skeletal muscle cells; cardiac muscle cells; and liver cells.
Bone marrow stromal cells may differentiate into: cardiac muscle cells and skeletal muscle cells.
Brain stem cells may differentiate into: blood cells and skeletal muscle cells.

ESC are pluripotent sure they have found “plasticity” in some multipotent cells but it is a long way from pluripotent.
Next lesson growing stem cells – tomorrow