Yabby,you would know also that intellectual fashions have come and gone but the Catholic Church is still here, the longest surviving institution on the planet. It is the only one that connects the ancient and modern worlds.

Putting one’s faith in a list of names of Professors is resting your argument from authority on shifting sand Steve Madden. How do you know what kind of philosophy they have? You do know the most wicked men in history have been the most educated. What if their philosophy is scientism? Would you be confident in the truth of this new experimental philosophy?

That morality is not objective is something you have to dogmatically assert Yabby. But since you brought it up, how would explain progress in things like human rights if there wasn’t an objective standard to progress to? Are you sure your reading of history concerning Christianity isn’t just a matter of collecting shadows? Whence comes the light that casts them?

Now I know you don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but there is a very strong possibility that he is, given the evidence.

"And I say also to thee, That thou art Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16.18)

"People have fallen into a foolish habit of speaking of [christian] orthodoxy as something heavy, humdrum, and safe. There never was anything so perilous or so exciting as orthodoxy. To have fallen into any one of the fads from Gnosticism to Christian Science would indeed have been obvious and tame. But to have avoided them all has been one whirling adventure; and in my vision the heavenly Chariot flies thundering through the ages, the dull heresies sprawling and prostrate, the wild truth reeling but erect. (GK Chesterton.)

Your position is honest Yabby,( how can one be indifferent to Christ and his Church? Either its one big fraud (I didn't use to believe it)or its all true – what looks too good to be true actually is true.

Martin there are religions who have been around alot longer then the Catholic Church and good philosophers have been around for a lot longer too. Why you think that the Catholic Church should win brownie points for being organised as an institution, beats me.

Of course various religions survive, we pretty well understand why. That does not mean that any of what they preach is true. Fact is that most religion is based on geography. Most people simply adopt the religion they were brought up with. So had you been born in Iraq, there is a 95% chance that you would be a devout muslim :)

A claim for objective morality is made by various religions, using their so called holy books as evidence. But as there is no substantiated evidence that any of them are true, it is simply a dogmatic assertion by religion.

Human rights have been promoted by humanists for a long time. Our abilitily to reason is enough to come up with good philosophical arguments to promote them. In fact its probably superior to religious reasons, for its not about fear of judgement day or burning in hell that drives us, but thoughts of a planet that is sustainable and pleasant for all, including for future generations.

I have seen no evidence that Jesus is the son of God. God is free to write the 10 commandments on the moon for all to see. He has never done so.

My opinion is that religion should be a lifestyle choice, those who need it and believe it are free to follow it, no matter which one. I simply don't accept the tyranny of the Catholic Church, more concerned about its own survival, then about the future of the planet.

Win Brownie points? It’s the Church begun by Jesus Christ we humble ourselves before it, once denigrating like you. But it is a perilous thing to put oneself outside the teaching of the Church, ideas that are radically opposed to Christ disappear from history. The amazing resilience of the Catholic Church makes it, (like the Jews) worthy of some investigation.

Religious pluralism as a doctrine fashionable in the last 40 years only, and certainly popular only in decadent Western countries that ‘Spengler’ of The Asia Times reveals have little time left. The truth of this doctrine, is just as geographically and chronologically relative as the religious doctrines you dismiss. Have a look at religious inclusivism instead.

The objective truth of the Resurrection? see the philosopher William Lane Craig:

http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html

Reason alone brings up Kant, DCT, and St Thomas good Christian replies for all of them, have a squizz. I like CS Lewis’ DCT reply.

Humanism - term coined by Erasmus I think, who was a very pious man. Did not believe humans were the measure of all things, when we believe in our own perfectibility we get totalitarianism.

Issues to do with free will regarding God making himself compulsorily present to us. Defeats purpose of Creation according to Christianity. If God exists that implies angels too. Hence fallen angels who certainly know God exists yet still reject the good. Irrational? Yes but evil is. As Mephistopheles in Faust reveals they will want to destroy for destruction’s sake.

Godbless Yabby

Martin, lots of religions/churches have been started by lots of people. Xtianity was cobbled together hundreds of years after your JC, once it was accepted by the Roman Govt. In the same way as the bible was cobbled together. Buddhism and Hinduism have been around alot longer, so based on your logic, we should take even more notice.

You forget that religious pluralism was simply not accepted, as the Chuch had ultimate power. Heretics were burnt at the stake. No wonder people kept their opinions to themselves.

If you want reason alone, go back to Socrates. Even he had to die for
not being pious enough.

History is full of people with humanistic tendencies, they were just never free to fully express themselves, for fear of persectution by the religious nuts. Much like the Muslim world today. Luckily in the West we ditched the religious nuts and religion has become a lifestyle choice and no more.

Craig provides no substantiated evidence about the claimed resurrection, just speculation.

Martin, if your belief helps you to cope with life, quell your anxieties etc, to balance out your brain chemistry, thats fine by
me. Just don't expect me or anyone else to take it seriously.

Buddhism and Hinduism were never a church. Never organized like the Roman Catholic Church, mere longevity was never my point.

Its easy to read our history backwards http://www.tektonics.org/qt/spaninq.html

Ppl wouldn't have tried such a silly doctrine and to a large extent were probably inoculated against it (When you stop believing in God its not that you believe in nothing its that you’ll believe in anything) How can all religions be true? Thats like saying all political ideologies are equally good and true! Ppl of the Middle Ages were much wiser in that regard than us.

The burden of proof is on you re: how such an oppressed civilization became the most successful. Rather than a blinkered view of history I suggest Spengler of The Asia Times. Balanced. Factual. Learned. You’ll understand the importance of theology and faith.

The authentic Crusades are evidence of this faith – a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world.

Knights were already wealthy. Crusading made many poor (those that returned)

They knew how sinful they were and left everything in an act of charity and love.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

That speaks of freedom Yabby, not oppression. Its hard to imagine the wealthiest risking their lives and wealth defending civilization in the spirit of our age – no God, no morality, no truth only relativism. Why fight to preserve that?

Seeing history in black and white means you don’t have to think Yabby, and you’re doing a lot of that.

Craig wrote only speculation? If you treat all ancient documents that way say goodbye to info we have on Roman Empire, Ancient Greece, Socrates, Ancient Egypt etc. You have reduced the ancient world to a blank wall of unknowing speculation!

http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/gospdefhub.html

As for brain chemicals and coping mechanisms, again the same can be applied to you. The only justification for being a Christian is that its TRUE. Trying to explain away just allows the other to do that too. Stick to the content.

I think even now Our Lord is reckoning with you Yabby, seriously.

"the longest surviving institution on the planet."

Martin, clearly longevity was your point! Read what you wrote previously.

I've read some of your posted links, Spengler etc, and it seems to me that you are obsessed about the Islam/Christian war. Well it will probably happen, that is the problem with religious nuts on both sides. Spengler makes some huge mistakes. Iran is not a democracy. There is no free speech, canditates have to be approved by religious people etc, thats not democracy.

Anyhow, to calm your worried mind, at the end of the day its a war
that Islam can't win. For if the crunch ever came, technology is such today that Mecca and Medina would be mere nuclear holes in the ground. So which way would Muslims turn to pray? Even they would be able to understand that.

You forget something else. Within the Islamic world, as within our world, the % of religious nuts is actually quite small. Yes they hold far too much power, considering their numbers. What Islam needs is what we had to go through, get religion out of politics and let it become a mere lifestyle choice, no more. The Catholics used to dominate the West, luckily us secular types kicked them out. Now its up to countries where Islam dominates, to do the same. Signs of that happening are all over the place. The pope is not the answer to Islam, for fanatical Catholics are as bad as fanatical Muslims.

Regarding Craig etc, what it comes to in science is that the larger the claim, the more evidence we need. Yup we threw out Greek gods, why not throw out Roman versions of God too? The people of the Middle Ages were not very smart, just far mor supersticious, due to lack of knowledge. No wonder the Catholics go to Africa for converts, they are less educated, so more likely to be gullible.

The justification for being Christian or any other religion is that it makes you feel better. Homeostasis of the brain is hugely important, if you know anything about neuroscience.