Yabby you’ve distinguished yourself again. You’ve completely missed the point about the Church.
You’re trying to say something like “a rock is long lasting too therefore the Church is as interesting as a rock” . The Church as an organisation, structure, mission, and members has outlived all others mate.

The fact you would dare call the group that defended Europe from Islamic invasion nuts is evidence of your fundamentalism. Nuclear war doesn’t seem to phase you? You’re qualified to talk about nuts and fanatics you exemplify them.

And your scientism stands and falls on this statement “the only valid knowledge is the scientific kind” but this can’t be proved in any scientific way! Scientism makes a purely arbitrary claim about what constitutes knowledge.

The kind of knowledge you use to conduct your relationships is far from scientific. Do you have compelling mathematical proof in any of them? What if you chose not to trust until you did. How many friends would you have then? God asks for a reasonable amount of trust, if we’re not prepared to give it, we like Othello risk everything.

I’m not sure whether secularists would like to be lumped in with you Yabby, but you’re kind have failed. Mark Steyn http://www.newcriterion.com/archives/24/01/its-the-demography/

The justification of your fundamentalism is that it makes you feel better. You have your dogma of scientism and anyone else who doesn’t believe it is a ‘religious nut’. But you forget in what a tiny minority you have placed yourself.

"Anyone who listens to my teaching and obeys me is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock… .But anyone who hears my teaching and ignores it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will fall with a mighty crash." Matt 7: 24-27

Athenian democracy, no votes for women and slaves. Iran has a kind, but to pick that out of Spengler? Is that you're only offering after reading him?

As for criticising Christianity. Understand your own religion first then we’ll talk.

Pericles you’re clearly not working from any playbook. Let me help.
God doesn’t want blind faith from us, otherwise it would be a virtue to put your faith in a cupboard or a dog. Faith is based on reasonable evidence. Read Othello and what happens bcz of his lack of trust or King Lear and his lack of trust.

The Resurrection has extremely strong evidence to support it. Begin with Greenleaf “Testimony of the Evangelists”, then to Lane Craig etc.

The onus is on you to show how Christianity could survive against such an antagonistic surrounding culture with constant persecution if Christ was just a ‘good guy’. Why be martyred for that? There were stoics, epicureans all kinds of ethical philosophies around at the time, comparing them to Christianity will be salutary for you Pericles – study hard!

“Can’t I just live a good life without Christ?” Been asked many times before. One shouldn’t believe something merely bcz we find it amiable. We must believe bcz it is true. Our Lord gave the ultimate example. We’re men not ostriches.

The beatitudes were a revolution – in terms of Jewish Law and Roman virtues. Many of the things Jesus taught his listeners found extremely hard to hear. Eg Man and woman becoming one flesh. We understand it now better than the original hearers.

I never claimed non believers are all relativists.

Should I dismiss an article if it was written by an “atheist scholar”?

I understand Christ’s atoning death more as I understand my own darkness. There’s no need of a Saviour if one thinks one is fine. I’ve recently from my heart thanked Jesus for what he did. We grow in understanding Pericles.

The logic is, atheists often see themselves as brave men who have
suffered the defeat of their deepest desires and who would really like
Christianity to be true. Nonsense. God is the natural object of faith, stop believing in God and you get a vacuum. A vacuum attracts everything. Look at what wacky things ppl believe these days.

Martin.

Its time for your medication mate. Try clozapine it works when other stuff has failed.

If you wish to add your views to a debate, do it. But to hijack the thread with insults and God bothering views does nobody any good.

You have imparted your wisdom over many threads, now how about a constructive post before the men in white coats come for you again.

Thank you Rex. Your diatribe proves my point about some posters being more concerned with kicking the Christians [especially those terrible Catholics] than with cloning.

Steve Madden accuses Martin of hijacking the thread! Who started attacking David van Gend on the basis that he is supposedly a Catholic? It's you and the other Catholic-haters who have done the hijacking. What's it like to be so full of hate Steve, Rex, Yabby and the rest of your ilk?

I've got no hate in me, Al. But I don't want to have my choices made for me by the Pope, or Islam, or Christian fundamentalists [or any other religion which I don't choose to be part of], or by the agents or double agents of these religious/political organisations.

I have no problem with the occasional people who knock on my door and ask me to read the Watchtower [which I decline]. I have no problem with the missionaries on bicycles. I have no problem with the Salvos rattling their tins at me, in fact I always give them something.

You may or may not have noticed that I don't criticise people for having a religious belief. I'm happy for people to be happy in ways which are meaningful to them, but I resent being judged for not necessarily sharing those beliefs.

I have lived long enough to realise that many religious organisations endeavour to force their beliefs on others by having them enshrined in law. The Catholic Church does this openly by telling Catholic politicians how to vote. When I talk about the Pope's agents, I am referring to the priests etc. They are open about who they are and who they represent. By double agents, I am referring to Catholic politicians, bureaucrats and academics etc, who to me are automatically suspect [on various matters] until they prove themselves capable of independent thought.

I presume you are a Catholic, Al. Well how would you like it if a politically powerful non-Catholic sought to influence the law in such a way that you were forced to live your life in a non-Catholic way? Pro-choice people are not like that, Al. We want options of our own choosing, after they are researched by suitably qualified people with no religious axe to grind.

Al, personally I prefer people who are honest, I am not into spin. If they have a religious agenda, they might as well just state it up front. Saves everyone alot of time reading through it all.

Martin, my point on your religious rock is that if its as solid as those popes of the past, then I find it quite amusing that you think its solid at all :) Yes the Catholic Church as an institution has been around for a while. So has prostitution. Both provide a service which some people need in life. Its when it becomes compulsory that I have a problem.

Your Spengler actually promotes a very Catholic worldview, I guess he is another of their spindoctors. Its all about obsession of Catholics/ Muslims. I think the Catholics think they are going to be outbred, so down the toilet would go the Church etc.

His notion that society has to collapse without religion, is rubbish quite frankly. Fact is that in most socieities, secularism is actually on the increase, including in the Muslim world, as people become better educated and less gullible to religious obsession.

The way that I see nuclear war is that its a sad fact that whilst some humans are intelligent enough to invent amazing things, others will be stupid enough, to misuse those same things. The worry about the religious is that they capable to rationalise a nuclear war as "it must be god's plan" etc. So if anyone is going to misuse nuclear weapons IMHO, it will be the fanatical who partake in the
Catholic/Muslim war, ie. the religiously fanatical. Religion should be a lifestyle choice and no more. Until that happens, wars based on religion will no doubt continue. Lets hope that does not cost us the planet one day.