Martin, tonight there was a programme on SBS about Pope Alexander 6th and his sexual exploits. Its basically similar to a book I have
called "The Sex Lives of the Popes", based on Vatican archives.

Thats the rock on which your church is built :)

Stem cell research and cloning will improve quality of life for many. And that is an understatement.

What I love most is the lovely irony the future will bring us. People against it will, in the future, without complaint or pause for reflection on their hypocrisy, use the benefits of the research for themselves and their families... they will vote against it and fight it tooth and nail, but when it yields benefits, they will be the first to put their hands in the pie and shovel it into their mouths....gg -_-

This supposed to be about whether cloning humans should be allowed. As usual Yabby and others have turned it into an attack on the Catholic Church. Who cares whether David van Gend is a Catholic or a Calithumpian? Deal with his arguments - if you can. Thank you Dr. van Gend.

In today's Mebourne Herald-Sun there's a news item which says "Cell Breakthrough" It goes on to say "Australian scientists believe they have moved a step closer to developing human embryonic stem cells capable of treating disease". "But the first therapies based on the controversial research may be 5 to 10 years away".

There's no need to wait 5-10 years for stem cell treatment of sickness and injury. ADULT STEM CELLS ARE ALREADY DOING IT. And without side effects which experiments with embryonic stem cells have given such as TEETH, HAIR AND TUMOURS.

Manufacturing human beings to use as guinea pigs for drug companies and other researchers is sickening, and UNNECESSARY.

Martin, Yabby, apologies for butting in on your conversation, but it is one of my favourite discussions.

Martin, you have learned the words of the christian marketing playbook very well. All the old favourites are there,

>>Now I know you don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but there is a very strong possibility that he is, given the evidence.<<

There isn't evidence in the conventional understanding of the word, only belief. I don't have a problem with your believing in the story, only representing it as truth. It is your opinion, I respect it, but it is still only an opinion.

>>ideas that are radically opposed to Christ disappear from history<<

This of course the classic. By appropriating perfectly normal mores and labelling them "christian" doesn't automatically separate them from the standard, non-christian human experience. If I were to found a religion based on precisely the same moral values as christianity, but without acknowledging the presence of Christ, would this not be an acceptable manner in which to conduct my life? In which case, what is the value of the Christ reference, except as a symbol?

The mores themselves existed before Christ, and continue without him. Pretending that the alternative to christian belief is merely "relativism" is the biggest fallacy in the christian handbook, but the most widely used. Crazy.

>>The objective truth of the Resurrection?<<

The article you refer to is written by a Christian academic. Objective truth?

>>When you stop believing in God its not that you believe in nothing its that you’ll believe in anything<<

There is absolutely no logic in this statement It is merely a slogan. Slogans (such as "Christ died for you") will never become true just because they are repeated.

I strongly believe that there are still many more questions that answers, and will continue to ask them. Christian evangelists, on the other hand, tend to avoid asking questions outside their belief system, as evidenced many times on OLO.

Big Al

In your regurgitation of the right to life propaganda you show your lack of knowledge about this issue.

Adult stem cell research has been taking place for over 40 years, ESC research has been going on for 5.

Stem cell transplants for leukaemia were fatal in >50% of cases, research has reduced this risk of dying to 20%. Embryonic stem cells may remove graft versus host disease and those who die using adult stem cells will live. We need this research.

Will you deny a family member treatment if ESC can cure an incurable disease?

Will these god botherers ever leave others alone.

Some of us are, at times, accused of attacking the Catholic Church, rather than addressing the issues. I see the Catholic [and some other religious organisations] as being composed of two sections. There is the purely religious arm and I have no problem with this section preaching to willing persons. And there is the political arm, run by a ruthless, unelected foreign dictator and his aides, which is set on world domination. The Pope even has the audacity to tell Catholic parliamentarians of any and all nations that they have a "moral duty" to follow his instructions.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/new/incathcircles/iccbottompg2vol8no3.htm

'Vatican Announces Campaign Against Same-Sex Marriage
The Vatican has announced a global campaign against gay marriage in a strongly-worded document released by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The document, "Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons," restates the Vatican's views that homosexual unions are immoral, unnatural and harmful. It says that Catholic politicians have a "moral duty" to oppose legislation permitting gay marriage.' etc etc etc.

[Just substitute some forms of medical research, or abortion, or contraception, or various other activities which go against Catholic dogma, for "Same-Sex Marriage" and you can see what gets up my nose.]

An elected representative, in a so-called democratic, sectarian country has an obvious duty to faithfully represent the wishes of his/her electorate, in so far as that is reasonably possible, and at the same time to respect the wishes of various minorities by making various things optional. But that's not good enough for the know-all totalitarians of various religious persuasions. Their aim is to dominate and get their own way, by any means at their disposal.

I do not choose to allow the Pope [or his agents or double agents] to decide on my medical choices, my reproductive choices, my relationship choices, in fact on any of my lifestyle choices. And why should I?