Dear Hamlet

Earlier comments acknowledge that "Culture and race are two different things, and must be treated differently." (posting 8:33:54 PM 10/1/2006). Racism (of itself) is rarely a factor in crime. Initially culture &/or religion are.

People used to "stand on their soapbox in the Domain (Sydney)" freely expressing their opinions. Few would risk such activity today - if a permit was issued. Debate attracted a crowd of followers/dissenters, or, due to disinterest, no crowd. Rarely was there violence.

Is Irfan the well-known Sydney-based solicitor? If so, then fantastic! I have spoken with him on previous occasions. Notwithstanding, I hope that any answer given to your question(s), & I quote: "Does this mean that the 'Lebanese Gangs' have simply bypassed Islam in their progress towards the 21st Century?" (posted 11:20:42pm 13/1/2006) is in accordance with Australian citizenship standards & not similarly to parts of the Qur'an (Sura 66:1-5, 33:36-38 & 9:29,30 etc) & various Ahadith - for brevity I refer to the teachings of Professor Abdul NATIQ who explains that "it is quite lawful to tell something which is not true at all, that may reconcile people". He explains a 'tradition' of Umal Kalsum (Mohammad's daughter) - "Mohammad only allowed people to lie, firstly, in the case of war to deceive the enemy; secondly, to reconcile two parties, &; thirdly, when husband & wife talk together.". I might likewise ask, "And if they have why are not more people from their own community giving them up to the authorities?"

I shouldn't tolerate the murder of my mum (1990) nor behaviour which endangers the inherently Australian culture - an integrated multi-ethnic society. But that is a far-cry from multiculturalism. I don't wish to live under a mish-mash of moulded laws which are more repressive than the laws which we currently have.

May there be peace in Australia, for all Australians - regardless of ethnicity. It will happen because we set standards which made Australia attractive to immigrants ('new' Australians) in the first place. A "one-world" state is not the solution. Multiculturalism in that sense must be rejected.

Cheers to all.

Irfan, you wrote:

"or are you referring to sharia's insistence that the judiciary be independent of the executive?

sharia is not a legal system. it is a legal tradition that encompasses a broad range of principles. many of these principles are found in our own legal system."

One of the difficulties that I have with these statements is that sharia is generally part of a theocratic system, where it is impossible for the judiciary to be independent of the executive.

To demonstrate I will move away from the Islamic context completely, firstly to Israel, where the laws on marriage and divorce are exercised by the religious establishment, not by any independent judiciary. Israel is also an example of religious political parties exercising am immense influence on the government, lessening that country's claims to being a liberal democracy.

Now look at some laws in the USA that make certain behaviours illegal, not on the basis of any potential harm to anyone, but on purely moral grounds: laws against sodomy, oral sex, sex outside marriage, and I would even include laws against drug use. As Tom Lehrer once said, the US constitution guarantees the right to a pursuit of happiness, not of pleasure.

These laws in the USA were put in place by an executive heavily influenced by religious leaders, and until recently upheld by the judiciary.

The same sort of relationship that exists in countries with Sharia law such as Nigeria and Iran.

Any system of laws based upon a religious or moral basis, rather than to prohibit actual harm to others cannot maintain a separation of judiciary and executive.

What is the problem. People that come to our lands will either abide by our laws and customs or else. This is not a complicated issue. If one desires sharia law, let them move to a land with sharia law in it. And if such people want to change our ways to sharia law, they are traitors. Australia and America was not founded on sharia law, nor will it come to pass. It is finished. No more debate, no more talks about this insanity. We are not Muslim land, NOR SHALL WE BE.

Jeff

Dear Mississippimud & Hamlet

Mississippimud: I like your optimism when you say: ".. either abide by our laws and customs or else." (3:08:57 PM 14/1/2006), because it is exactly that reality that we as a nation need to face. Individuals, by nature, want to disobey many/some laws & regulations. It has been part of mankind's downfall since Adam & Eve - we don't like being told what to do. Cultural differences only exacerbate that desire.

What would you do, practically, about those who disobey? Surely you wouldn't extradite those poor 'defenseless' individuals? Imagine the world-wide public indignation! "Australia the intolerant!"

However, as to your quote that "We are not (a) Muslim land, NOR SHALL WE BE.", well that is debatable. We may not be in the next 20-years, or maybe not the next 30-years. But, unless Aussies stop emulating Americans by chasing a self-centred 1.7 birthrate & a 4-cars-in-the-garage mentality, it won't take very long for the "nor shall" to become a reality. Moreover, there have been Islamic leaders who have arrogantly proclaimed that to ultimately be our eventuality. I would hope for more than that as a future for my children's children.

Hamlet: when you say ".. that make certain behaviours illegal, not on the basis of any potential harm to anyone, but on purely moral grounds .." (2:37:37 PM 14/1/2005)& mention sodomy & sex outside marriage surely you don't naively suggest that those 2 examples don't have harmful consequences? You've heard about AIDS & STDs I imagine? Maybe you've also not encountered psychologically damaged children who, as adults, have little or no sense of identity? Our inheritances to the future generations aren't what we leave them in material gifts, but rather the moral & ethical skeleton which they inherit to be able to be good teachers to their children. That's how cultures survive millennium - good morals & ethic. "Harm" can be a very subjective value. Just ask questions across several divergent cultures to begin to understand that reality. Laws need an element of morals & ethics to make them function.

Cheers all

"We are not Muslim land, NOR SHALL WE BE"

Who has declared this to be a Muslim land in the first instance to warrant this rebuttal?

Islam

It claims all land is Allah's land.