Hi all

Fellow_Human (posted 4:11:45 PM 18/1/06)
Refer above for an answer to your comment on the Bible versus the Qur'an. Most Jews are quite comfortable to swear on the Bible - they share much in common (except the NT).
Regarding my comment “Islam seeks to convert the world”: Koranic text specifically infers what is sought - see Surah 4:89, 8:39, 9:29 & 48:29, to name only a few references. The Ahadith further clarify the thinking.
Sorry if I offend you. But I don't have a 'problem' with you - I have a 'problem' with what your scriptures contain.
I certainly don't condone what has been done by humans, of many cultures & ethnicities, in the name of religion over many centuries. But only 1 religious 'prophet' led a life by the sword & proudly documented it.
One might only need to compare Surah 4:34 with Ephesians 5 to begin to understand the difference in respect for women between Mohammad & Christ. But the Qur'an & Hadiths go deeper - examples: women are deficient in intellegence, religious (knowledge) [viz Hadith Vol 1 intro p xiv, 1 Hadith 301, 3 Hadith 826] & gratitude [viz 1 Hadith 28]. Nor do I appreciate my wife & daughter (or any other woman) being considered as having 10 'awrah [viz 22 Hadith 858]. All these quotes are considered "hassan" or 'approved' by Islamic scholars. The last is particularly disgusting & demeaning of all women.

Swilkie (posted 5:49:34 PM 18/1/06)
We are deceived by multiculturalism because it has deviated from its original intent.
72 virgins for Muslim who reaches "paradise"? Refer Ibn-Kathir commentary on Surah 56:35-37. There are other quotes but I can't recall currently.

All!
For those interested & who are non-Muslim: you might refer to the following link for access to the Qur'an, Hadith & more. Link? http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Cheers all

The interesting thing about swearing on the Quran and on the Bible is the actual extent and practice in which it is done.

I won't say much about this, but I have sworn in thousands of people in court. Most people are glad to take the oath on the Bible, even Jews and some Islamic people, as they recognise that at least parts of the Bible represents the word of a God that they aknowledge.

There are others who prefer to be take an affirmation, with no religious content at all.

However there is a small group who, in spite of aknowledging a religious faith when giving their evidence, by stating an attendance at a mosque or a church and claiming to be believers, will not take an oath on a religious text.

For some this is part of their religion, as some Christians will point to the Biblical injunction against taking oaths.

However I have seen situations where an person giving evidence which is so at odds with all other evidence presented by other witnesses that it cannot be considered reliable, decline to take an oath on a religious text. Unfortunately this has mainly occurred, to my experience, where the accused is of Islamic background and it is their kin or friends who is giving evidence favourable to their case.

I have seen only one instance where a Christian has taken an affirmation despite his stated beliefs: this was in a third retrial where this person had previously sworn on the Bible twice. He was questioned about this by the defence barrister.

I believe that many Muslims take the oath on the Quran seriously, to the extent that if they deliberately decline to take the oath on the Quran, when it has been available to them, that they intend lying. That is, lying in court is okay, so long as the oath was not taken on the Quran.

Unfortunately I have not seen lawyers question witnesses about the validity of their affirmations on religious grounds.

And I no longer am involved in that area of work.

Hi all

Dobbadan (posted 9:31:50 PM 18/1/2006)
Your story of Alberto Rivera (Perth 1986) emulates St Marys' (Sydney) Dr Makin Morcos murder (1991). Fatwahs were issued. The crime is't solved. I retain copies of the legal documents & newspaper clippings.
Recently, Rev Fayek Iskander was 'allegedly' threatened by Farouk Alfrakhani. The Sun-Herald & Daily Telegraph ran stories. The incident? Interfaith meeting attended by Philip RUDDOCK & Keysar TRAD. An Arabic-speaking witness attended.

Human_Being (posted 9:02:09 AM 20/1/2006)
Thanks for being outspoken. Society needs courageous & ethical Muslims who oppose violence. Only then will society heal & live in harmony/peace.

Rancitas (posted 2:20:24 AM 20/1/2006)
You're right. Multiculturalism is beyond skin colour or ethnicity. So is multi-ethnicity. I'm opposed to multiculturalism - a plethora of negative opposing cultural habits. It's not resolvable. Cultural disharmony's entrapped mankind for millennia. Our culture is Australian - two centuries of predominantly harmonious ethnicities. We're 19-million people with an Australian culture. Non-compliants? Leave.

Hamlet (posted 3:35:44 PM 28/1/06)
Great to discover your 'speciality' & experience in court(s) - be it yester-year.
Jews & some Muslims will happily swear an oath on the Holy Bible because - as intimated previously - Judaism is foundational to Christian text & the Qur'an affirms the Bible, viz Surahs 18:27/28; 29:46; 35:31; 87:18/19 etc.
My disquiet with an oath on the Qur'an is - refer my 1:17:38 PM 28/1 posting - that the Qur'an gives Muslims permission to lie under certain circumstances, viz, Surah 16:106; 66:1-5 & under El Itadayah Vol 4 p 81; & "The Muslim Doctrine of God" p 41. That doesn't mean all Muslims are liars. But they can lie without guilt. The Ninth Commandment (Ex 20:15) forbids Christians & Jews lying. Certainly not all Christians conform. But they're under judgement from God (Yahweh).
I can't understand any Christian not prepared "to take on oath on the Holy Bible". Christian Scripture is riddled with affirmations, viz, Ex 33:1; Num 30:2; Deut 7:8 & 29:12; Ps 119:106; Ecc 8:2; Matt 5:33 etc. The Barrister I should've 'drilled' the witness. I'd suggest the person was 'nominal' at best.

Cheers all

James 5:12 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


12Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned.

Matthew 5:37 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Reg: [arriving at Brian's crucifixion] Hello, Sibling Brian.
Brian: Thank God you've come, Reg.
Reg: Well, I think I should point out first, Brian, in all fairness, we are not, in fact, the rescue committee. However, I have been asked to read the following prepare statement on behalf of the movement. "We the People's Front of Judea, brackets, officials, end brackets, do hereby convey our sincere fraternal and sisterly greetings to you, Brian, on this, the occasion of your martyrdom. "
Brian: What?
Reg: "Your death will stand as a landmark in the continuing struggle to liberate the parent land from the hands of the Roman imperialist aggressors, excluding those concerned with drainage, medicine, roads, housing, education, viniculture and any other Romans contributing to the welfare of Jews of both sexes and hermaphrodites. Signed, on behalf of the P. F. J. , etc. " And I'd just like to add, on a personal note, my own admiration, for what you're doing for us, Brian, on what must be, after all, for you a very difficult time.

*

Matthias: Look, I don't think it should be a sin, just for saying "Jehovah".
[Everyone gasps]
Jewish Official: You're only making it worse for yourself!
Matthias: Making it worse? How can it be worse? Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!
Jewish Official: I'm warning you! If you say "Jehovah" one more time (gets hit with rock) RIGHT! Who did that? Come on, who did it?
Stoners: She did! She did! (suddenly speaking as men) He! He did! He!
Jewish Official: Was it you?
Stoner: Yes.
Jewish Official: Right...
Stoner: Well you did say "Jehovah. "
[Crowd throws rocks at the stoner]
Jewish Official: STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! STOP IT! All right, no one is to stone _anyone_ until I blow this whistle. Even... and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say, "Jehovah. "
[Crowd stones the Jewish Official to death]
Link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/quotes

Hi all

Meredith (posted 11:19:22 AM 21/1/06)
The Abu Hamza article? Laughable if it weren't so serious - his likely guilt & the enormous cost.
Re religious vilification legislation comment: the "western world" has added morer draconian legislation. Courts may clog? Comments are silenced for fear of litigation. A Muslim, a Tibetan monk or a Zoroastrian talking at a public meeting doesn't offend me. If I disagree? I respectfully make comment or simply walk away - others hopefully will follow.
Litigation should only occur where acts of violence are threatened against individual(s) or against the nation. Those laws already exist.
The Religious Tolerance legislation opposes traditional Australian culture - freedom of speech, enshrined in our Constitution.

Rancitas (posted 2:20:24 AM 20/1/06)
In Australia you can maintain your cultural origins. But why would you want to?
I'm Irish. I don't want to maintain a Catholic vs Protestant stance. I don't wish to do the Irish jig or "get blind" on Guinness.
If I were an Alaskan Eskimo it would be senseless to bring Huskies & sled, animal-skin clothing to reside in an igloo. Need I go on?
Sadly (& thankfully), for many Middle Eastern people, & elsewhere, Australia is different to where they came from. Don't like the changes that Australia offers? Select another country.
Incidentally, I have many Middle Eastern & Asian friends. They assimilated. Australia offered them greater than their country of origin. They are proudly "new Australians", & I'm proud to call them my friends.

Hamlet (posted 12:20:13 PM 21/1/06)
Re "Rancitas: you see it similarly to the way that I do!!

Jolanda (posted 2:15:41 PM 21/1/06)
Tolerance? What a misnomer!
My mum was killed by a juvenile seeking money for drugs. I don't tolerate his actions. As a Christian I am called to love him. He therefore benefits from the Restorative Justice programme through which we are both working. Maybe his future, beyond gaol, will be greater than his past iniquities? He knows I care about him. Tolerance? No!

Cheers all