Skidmarx, Robert and BDavid,

Sydney may well have been saved if Robert had spoken against BD’s Cronulla email pre riots, sadly jumping on the bandwagon post riot is fairly useless.

I’m glad I too wrote (pre riots) to CronullaSurf. They need all the support they can get in the face of the racism from the lebs and the left.

Iemma’s seat being that of Lakemba, answers the question of why leb suburbs are being given the easy treatment.

SKIDMARX,

From Lebanon’s finest… “Procreate, educate and detonate” childrearing programs.

"Hizbullah Al-Manar TV’s Children's Claymation Special: Jews Turn Into Apes and Pigs, are Annihilated and Cast Into the Sea"

In its Stories from the Koran series, Al-Manar TV, which is affiliated with the Lebanese terrorist organization Hizbullah, aired an Egyptian claymation children's special by the well-known filmaker Dr. Zeinab Zamzam. [1]
The following are excerpts are from the program, which aired December 7, 2005.
TO VIEW CLIP VISIT http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=964....
http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD105005

Would you let your 3 y-old watch this?

Isn’t it funny, first the PC tells us its just a few extremists in the middle east... Then they concede well yes and a few in local mosques in your western home town... Then after London its only a few locals.

Now after Sydney ahmm yes well it’s also quiet a few gangs of Sydney locals… it gets closer and closer everyday. LOL and they call us racist.

ROB
yes, I fully take the point that ‘non police’ intervention with a goal of restraint and apprehension for police, could and most likely WOULD involve a degree of ‘violence’. Restraining an unwilling offender usually does.
The important issue here though is not whether ‘violence’ is used, because the Police inevitably use it themselves on our behalf. The principle is ‘restrain’ not punish.

Dear ENAJ
I think I’ve finally worked out why there appears to be a continual barrier of understanding between myself (and my ilk) and you.

Your position “We cannot tar ALL of a particular group with the same brush” AGREED...
except....in one circumstance, and that, is

‘Tribal COLLECTIVE behavior’

I think you need to do some reading on this issue. You appear to be projecting onto ‘tribal’ sub cultures an extreme ‘Western Individual/liberal’ outlook which is as accurate as a square peg in a round hole.

We have no argument that there are MANY ‘nice Muslims’ and some ‘bad’ Muslims socially speaking. What you are not recognizing is this. Lets use Christians for an example:

A law is proposed to “Ban Alchohol trading across Australia”,
No matter what the history of this issue do you think that “individual nice Christians” or even ‘MANY’ nice Christians will oppose such a law ? Hardly. There are many better examples of course.
If Parliament was urged to open with a reading from the Quran, would ‘nice Muslims’ oppose this ? again, hardly, but how would Christians and atheists react ?
Are you seeing it yet ? please get back to me.

SCOUT
You are blessedly naive. Did you not see what those ‘peace’ rallies were ‘REALLY’ about ? The same people running that march, are the people who fail to mention YEARS of gang attacks and youths’ trashing streets, yet they SHOUT about ‘white supremacist loony fringe’ on 1 day. See this for ‘balanced’ reporting. http://www.greenleft.org.au/racism5.htm (Last Para)
Why would ATHEIST Socialists ‘stand shoulder to shoulder’ with Allah believing Muslims ?
Does it occur to you that all they want is the support of Arabs for political reasons ?

BOAZ_David.
No, I certainly don't lump Christians (or Buddhists, for that matter) in with all those others I mentioned.
I included them because someone, somewhere, may have issues of racism with Christianity or Buddhism (or any other religion/ideology for that matter - free and open debate about racism, that's all that matters). I don't know of any C&B racism offhand, but then, Christianity and Buddhism doesn't threaten the civilization (flawed as it is) that I love, so I haven't studied them as thoroughly as I have Islam.
I have no issues at all with Christ, in fact I try to follow his code of ethics (except for turning the other cheek) even though I am an atheist. I am tolerant of all races and religions that are willing to live and let live.
I am NOT tolerant of Islam, satanism, fascism, communism and any totalitarian/racist ideology.
Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Jainists etc should be TOTALLY united in the fight against the jihad. Thanx for YOUR contributions to these forums.

samo.
Exactly, you can't just sweep it under the carpet and pretend it's not there. This is the most important issue the world faces at this point in time. As for the solution..... that's a hard one. The first step would be to stop this useless 'Left-Right' divide. We need to unite to fight this. We're all Infidels together against an implacable, bloodcurdling menace.

Pericles.
You remind me of a Far Side cartoon I saw depicting Custer's Cavalrymen saying: "Indians shmindians" or medieval soldiers saying "Mongols shmongols", The Emperors new clothes, and failure to see the 800 pound gorilla in your bedroom, with ludicrous statements like "...conveniently ignoring the mass of Moslems who live perfectly peaceable and blameless existences." More like you conveniently ignoring the mass of alarming FACTS about Islam that one discovers on a daily basis. Please pull your head out of the sand. There are peaceful Muslims here and around the world. However, after 1400 years, Islam has not proven to be peaceful. Far from it!
" the skidmarx of this world, who seem to revel in the perceived drama of it all." I assure you I'm not revelling in
"the perceived drama of it all." I'm VERY concerned. If you can prove me wrong, then let's see what you've got.
Suggesting that I would be a fascist/Oswald Mosley follower in your snide, pathetic remarks, exposes you for the morally-bankrupt, coward that you are. Calling someone a nazi is probably your stock phrase if anyone disagrees with your woefully naive perception of reality. And your 'Move along, folks.... Nothing to see here' attitude paints you as serious contender for the Dhimmi/Useful Idiot of the year award.

Boaz David,
Okay, I am getting back to you.
Racism and tribal behaviour exist, of course. They would qualify, in my mind, at least, as examples of bad human behaviour. And, as I am just human, they have both been part of my own bad behaviour at times. But, as I have pointed out on other threads, just because certain traits are human doesn't mean we should just shrug and put up with them or glorify them. Cruelty, rudeness, exploitation, tantrum throwing, sulking, violence, jealousy, prejudice, selfishness, stupidity and ignorance all exist, but that's what civilisation is about, channelling destructive "tribal" behaviour into more constructive avenues.
But I don't get the rest of your argument. Are you implying that religious believers slavishly follow the tenants of that religion without thought, without conscience, without reason? And that they all agree all the time? History does not support you. Christianity broke away from Judaism, Protestantism broke away from Catholicism, Sunni muslims battle Shi'ite muslims. Religion fights itself just as much as it fights non-believers, more sometimes. It is one of the reasons I am not a fan of religions. I have nothing against faith, you understand, just religion. Because, on second thoughts, perhaps they do promote "tribal" behaviour, exclusion, the "us " and "them" mentality. But just because you think someone is wrong, or you don't approve of their behaviour does not give you the right to descend on them like a baying banshee with hate on your face and lust for blood in your heart. I don't care how bloody human the impulse is, people need to grow up and resist their baser impulses. That's what being a civilised adult is all about.

Hi Enaj
yes.. I cannot disagree with you on the need to uphold law and seek to chanel 'tribal' behavior into more positive things.
I also agree that we must never just shrug our shoulders and give up on trying.

What we are witnessing in Sydney, in my opinion, is a government and police force and Judiciary which are in a 3 way lust triangle.
Lust for power and influence I suggest. The politicians are 'dependant' on the vote (Iemma in particular) of a particular segment of the population which have a distinct religious, cultural and tribal background. So, dependance gives rise to compromise on issues of Law and Order 'go easy on them.. they are misunderstood' kind of thing. This in turn emboldens the ratbag element, which in turn seek to bully and use this soft approach for their own advantage and our disadvantage. Hence the recognition of this and the reaction, in the form of a peaceful protest, hijacked by vocal ratbag elements on the 'white supremacist' side of things, which in turn further radicalizes the ratbag element among the tribalists and pushes the moderate among them towards radicalism because they now feel threatened.

A strict law and order approach free of political intrigue and better social policy which would specifically prevent large numbers of tribalists settling in one place, would have prevented all this. So, I am an advocate of pro-active social settlement policy aimed at avoiding this.

Collective Behavior and Tribalism.

We experience CB here in OLO. Our opinions are re-inforced by supporters, and we tend to polarize.

Religion is a big factor in differentiating one 'tribe' from another.
That tribe will vote, act and relate in ways which 'collectively' benefit them. That was the substance of the rest of my argument.
Of course you get dissenters, but still, majority will follow the interests of the 'tribe' and influence social, immigration, econonomic and foreign policy in their own interests.
Iemma will act in the interests of his political 'tribe' :)