Hear! Hear!

Define a terrorist.

We will end up with an increase in terror due to this.

A big increase.

Here is another left-wing politician defending the multiculturalism forced on us by the Fraser Coalition, turned into a religion by the ALP, and now tolerated by the current so-called conservative government because they don’t have the guts to knock it in the head.

The “strong” foundations of multicultural madness are, as he says, being undermined because people, at last, have woken up to the stupidity and frailty of the whole shebang of multiculturalism and the totally unrealistic, unnatural idea that people from greatly different backgrounds can blend together.

People worldwide have always chosen to live with people of their own kind. There is nothing peculiar about white, European type Australians wishing to do the same. The only amazing thing about Cronulla is that it has taken so long to happen. It was inevitable – postponed only because of the natural tolerance and easygoing nature of Australians - but here at last because of the stupid, arrogant assumptions made by politicians that they could force people to accept something entirely unnatural.

Kerr, of course, blames the Howard government and, also of course, ignores the fact that the population can make up its own mind – and has – about what they want and think. How arrogant and ignorant, even for a politician!

If Howard’s policy on which immigrants should be allowed into Australia was directed at Muslims as Kerr claims, it is not reflected in his (Howard’s) wishy washy attitudes to those Muslims – particularly the trouble makers – who are here now and who are still coming here.

If Kerr and the general limp left community think of Howard as a hard man, heaven help us if we ever get a weak PM. Howard is an opportunist politician and, when it comes to the crunch, he is all mouth and trousers.

Kerr, bereft of all reasonable argument, drops in racism as the reason for Cronulla. Of course racism was involved, but Kerr and those of his kind mean only white, Australian racism, not the racism inherent in all races, particularly that which has certainly been displayed by Lebanese

You can't be serious Duncan! I cannot believe that the regular suspects have jumped on John Howard again over these riots of all things!

Aside from the reality that there have been massive problems brewing in Sydney long predating 'September 11', it is the ALP's policy of multiculturalism that has got the country into this mess. I say 'ALP's policy' because it isn't multiculturalism that is the problem but rather the fact that the 'Left' has perpetuated the notion that being Australian doesn't entail a responsibility to uphold the basics.

I'm not talking about playing Rugby or singing Waltz Sing Matilda either. It seems to me that to the majority of Australians the beach is their mosque- a place to go with your family, ponder how lucky one is and appreciate 'the higher being' that created Bondi, Surfers Paradise etc. Going to the beach is a basic liberty, as is a woman's right to wear a bikini without sinister repurcussions and a mans right to believe in whatever he likes.

There can be no argument that certain elements of the lebanese community DO NOT support these basic rights and have made it mighty difficult for others in the community to access these rights. If a gang is a bikie gang we call it that. If it is a surfer gang we call it that. Why can't we call Lebanese gangs just that?

It is because people like you Duncan Kerr have naively hijacked the issue into one of race rather than one of crime. Nobody ever agreed that multiculturalism was a license to hide under an obscure banner of 'cultural relativism' and justify the denegration of women and of Australia's traditions. Where were the unequivocal condemnations from the mullahs when those girls in Sydney were gang raped? Whatabout the lads who mocked the ANZACS on 60 minutes-did they get a dressing down from their community? Multiculturalism should be a celebration of our differences not a free for all on the nations basic fabric.

Typical garbage from the worst type of racist there is.

All this trouble started when the Hawke/Keating government thought they were losing support in some Sydney electorates. Their solution? Import thousands of easily manipulated immigrants to stack the electorates. The problem's been made worse ever since by spineless grovelling cowards like Kerr who have convinced Muslims that they're "victims" of our racist culture. They're victims of their own racist culture. They're victims of people like Kerr who have given them victim status, encouraged their fear, herded them into ghettos and encouraged resistance to inclusion in the dominant culture. Muslim people have sowed hatred and racism wherever they have settled in the world. Britain, France, American, Australia, they have all been victims of the insidious racism of the likes of Kerr.

Government can solve this problem tomorrow by instructing their police forces to actually enforce the law and to give them the powers and resources to do so. When yobbos and grubs can call police any names they like, use any language they like, and behave in any antisocial manner they like the community is in trouble no matter what the ethnic mix. Add to this weak bail laws, pathetic sentences, and timid magistrates and it's no wonder we've got some problems.

It just shows you how pathetic we've become when bikie gangs, surfie yobs, and ethnic crime gangs are involved in brokering peace agreements. They're given a degree of legitimacy by the media and we're all supposed to be relieved that they're talking to each other! If they're running around killing each other in an underworldy, gangsterish kind of way, hurting no one but their own then they can broker any peace deal they want. But when they're elevated to a central power role in a genuine community and policing problem it just beggars belief!

Hopefully it'll be a long time before Kerr and his bunch of gutless political opportunists ever get a chance to do this country more harm.

Part I

Leaders, real elected ones, have forgotten to lead. They lecture us on economics yet rarely show us how to live and go about our lives, they fail to promote the combined strength and trust and other principles that we need in society. Their mistake is to forget that society is not just there it is also being created every minute.

Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised or offended when some Australians riot and are verbally offensive. Only recently, Sydney Magistrate Pat O'Shane declared from her bench that community standards have disappeared and it's normal to swear and abuse people in public. That sentiment might make her happy but it shows again how out of step with reasonable principles, members of the legal-political professions can become.

Elected or appointed but powerful professions need to remind us why they are there. Not merely I think, to "reflect" society but also to "lead" society.

Leaders make laws that govern behaviour but they also make laws to "create" behaviour. An example is EEO legislation enacted at a time when wider society was unimpressed with moves by women to gain employment in non-traditional fields. Society adjusted to it, the sky didn't fall in and no one looks back today. In fact most wonder why on earth they weren't given the opportunity in the first place.

Putting the 'racism' cart in front of the "culture and integration" horse is rubbish and we all know it and this futile debate on whether Australia is a "racist society" should end. Some few citizens plainly are but only recently the sympathy for an executed heroin trafficker provided the counterfactual. The state governor herself is from a Lebanese background.

Part II

A critical issue is that Sydney beaches and some streets have experienced people who really do scare women and families with weird, racist, sexist behaviour. They often demand to be recognised as being from elsewhere yet do not like being singled out on that basis by others.

I'd ask that state-level & police leaders lead. We do not want them to crap on about sensitivity towards other cultures, gangs or the virtues of swearing and violence and then release manuals and guidelines, we want them to prosecute crime.

Avoid the BS, single out the troublemakers but avoid debate reconstruction that goes easy on constituencies; acknowledge that both sets of idiots are not the bulk of us out here and then speak positively but accurately why this is a fantastic country and how we can keep on keeping on.

Finally, since not all our Leaders are leading, I think it's up to us to lead and wish everyone in Australia, particularly in Cronulla and those of Lebanese background a genuinely Merry Christmas and best wishes and goodwill for the New Year.

A genuinely Merry Christmas to you all.

Wre come off it my Grandfather didn't fight a die in ww2 to defend your beach culture or women’s "right" to wear thongs (in fact women would have charged with a crimal offence back then). He fought for democracy and the rule of law. If people were having their rights inhibited then they had recourse to the law. Having only seen pictures a the ugly mod I would say that the crowd didn't seam to be marching in support of Aussie values i.e. democracy and the rule of law. Most of them look like young drunken stupid blokes looking for a fight and not even understanding what they were there for. There can be no doubt that some people on both sides wish to enflame the situation but mod violence is unAustralian no matter what colour or religion you are.

Spot on Duncan,of course you can expect to be jumped on by those who are so blind they cannot see. The Yobbo ,redneck mentality can not comprehend the result of Howards policies has marginalised sections of our population who consequently react,not against the real villains but our home grown racists who have been actively encouraged by the likes of Alan Jones who has excelled at fanning the flames of intolerance.
Anti social behaviour by an ethnic group should be dealt with under our anti-discrimination laws just as Vigilante retaliation should be nipped in the bud.
Australia is a Nation of Migrants who all sought freedom from violence and persecution.
Howard would be well advised to attend to uniting our multicultural communities instead of undermining them for the sake of electoral gain.

Duncan Kerr is one of too many in Australia who do not comprehend that racism is fundamental in human nature; that there is no society on earth in which racism does not exist be it overt or covert.

Racism derives from the tribal instinct for tribal survival; it has been with us since the first homo sapiens evolved, and was probably part of the behaviour of the first homo erectus.

Notions that this basic instinct can be devolved by the 'proper thought' of political correctness or any other idealistic notion is arrant nonsense: indeed, with the continuing increase in the population density of our planet, the tribal survival instinct is more likely to strengthen.
When we combine this instinct with the further divisions between people which came with religious ideology we have a volatile mixture which is destructive to the coherence of any society.

We in Australia are seeing, at this point in time, the beginning of destruction of the coherence of our society.

The ideological notion of 'multiculturalism' as it has been applied to immigration in the last quarter century,is destructive, and will continue to be destructive. Prior to the notion of 'multiculturism' we became a greater nation from the many cultures which contributed to the development of Australia: cultures which, importantly, blended into a monoculture.

The future of Australia, an Australia which can grow into a great monoculture, rests with excluding from immigration those cultures which are either incapable of blending or, where the culture is significantly different to the current blended culture, by restricting the input to a level which precludes the creation of subsocieties.

Kenny as a lawyer I'm more than familiar with the rule of law- my grandfather fought for this country too and was imprisoned in Changi because basic legal tenants went missing during WWII so don't patronise me. Unfortunately the point you missed is that most Aussies don't even know what 'the rule of law' is much less appreciate the loaded concept of 'democracy'.

The bottom line is the things most Australians hold dearest, like the right to go to the beach and wear whatever they like are underpinned by the rule of law. Of course both sides are to blame. I blame the the Bra Boy surfers. I blame the Cronulla Caucasian thugs. And I blame the LEBANESE gangs who descend on Cronulla and Surfers Paradise to cause trouble.

What I object to is being called a racist for calling a spade a spade.

Id rather the community does breaks apart and real leaders who have the balls and brains to organise and unify Australia will make the right moral decitions for all Australians both colored or white which previous governments have procrastinated on for years in reforming properly our immigration systems and laws that have lead to this tradjedy.

People seem to thing that racism is a bad mental illness, but we are all born with it. It is a surival instinct in our pre-history to protect our "tribal families" or now as we call it in our modern world races. Racism is obviously as it causes major violent outbreaks, but the crude and sadistic benifits are that it maintains a balanced racial controll over a country.

It may sound racist I know cause i bet some people are thinking that I am racist maybe, which im not by the way. However its true wheter you belive it or not.

"Australians of Islamic background have expressed concern that members of their community will be disproportionately targeted "

If there is any "disproportionate" here it is the number of Muslims that support and commit acts of terror as compared to any other religion anywhere. Yet this simple fact cannot be stated.

Here is another politically correct politician that cannot relate fact A to fact B, because it could be considered to be insensitive - even if true. Why should a country not restrict immigration of people who have shown not to be - how can I say this politely - the most peaceful folks on earth? Why don't the brutal facts about Islamic societies mean anything to people like Mr Kerr? Because be only cares about himself and his ego.

The simple fact is that hate and anger are the trademarks of modern Islam (and Mohammud). Muslims want to immigrate to the West because of the vileness and oppression of Muslim-dominated societies. They come to the West and in their religion they bring their hate and anger with them. Then they cannot understand why they are still unhappy. What to do? Well, like the old saying about fatness - if you cannot be happy, try to make others (non-Muslims) even unhappier than you. Sad, but there is a lot of truth in this paragraph.

Perhaps had the laws been applied equally in past years this would not have happened. But, because of people like Mr. Kerr, police must refrain from targeting harassment and even certain criminal acts by minorities. I understand that in Sidney the police manuals even suggest that Muslim domestic violence be treated differently, in a more "sensitive" manner.

These riots are the fruit of double standards and political correctness. From what I have seen as far based upon the reporting about the riots and other incidents at Sidney beaches leads one to believe that the politicians and leaders will not learn anything. Things will get worse.

kactuz aka kactuzkid

Multiculturalism does work. It is everywhere around us. Who doesn't eat Pizza? Which Aussies don't like Chinese or Indian food? Who hasn't met somebody at work or socially, become friends with them and then found out a year later that their parents were from Croatia or Malaysia or Afghanistan? Just the fact that we say "Middle eastern appearance" instead of Turks, Lebanese, Greek, Persian or whatever means that we are already recognising that there are lots of different cultures, even if the people look something alike.

If there are thugs from any culture, throw them in jail for a long time but don't throw all the good things about the rest of the world away too. There are too many good people and good things out there and I want to get the benefits of all of them.

Like many Australians, I am wearied of reading about misunderstood misfits who seem to think they can walk over Australians because their upbringing and their religion gives the idea that they are above Australian law.
I read that they "hate" us and that means that they should not be here at all. Being born here does not give them the right to threaten , abuse,use obscene language and in general , make absolute pests of themselves.
The Muslim youth who reject this country are going to make it very difficult for their coming generations. They should be using the time now to make sure their children and their childrens children will live a happy, contented, secure life here as so many thousands of other migrants have done.
It is up to them.

Duncan, you have hit the nail on the head.
Howard has sewed the wind and will reap the whirlwind. You cannot be soft on racism (like some of the posters here) and expect that you can control the terrifying forces you unleash.
There is one ultimate irony, however, the first people to be charged under Howard's sedition laws may well be bleach blonde, blue eyed Aussie boys from Cronulla - the closest things to terrorists I have seen on Australian soil. And the one area I would definitely not travel to at the moment is not Israel or Egypt or Bali, but Cronulla.
Watch the footage of the Aussie boys baying for the blood of the two poor boys on the train - who had probably never done anything wrong in their lives except been born to Lebanese (or Lebanese looking) parents - and tell me who the terrorists were.
Indeed, that is the really frightening thing, Osama is winning, he is creating us in his own image and , aided and abetted by our own stupid governments, we are falling for it.

If the race riots were depressing, I am much more depressed by some of the dispiriting replies to Duncan Kerr's excellent article.

Many of the rioters were obviously just small minded thugs getting their kicks, but racist comments in online opinion by otherwise inteligent observers really displays an exploding intollerance that was not evident in this country until now - post Iraq.

Good on you Duncan. You are spot on.

I echo gecko!

Duncan's article is well stated and argued. Once again, a number of the responses contain little or no fact, just emotional ranting.

So now I'm going to have a rant. Take this:

If the rule of law is being abused, then look no further than our so called leaders. Where is the rule of law for David Hicks - if he's committed a crime, then give him a trial. Where is the rule of law for asylum seekers - detained without trial for years, having broken no law (that's right, do your research, they have broken no law - it is perfectly legal to seek protection from persecution). Where is the rule of law for ministers and Prime Ministers who lie to the electorate. What can be more criminal than taking a country to war on a lie (Howard said he KNEW Iraq had WMDs), causing the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians. Where is the rule of law for the likes of Robert Gerard, evading millions of dollars in taxes, whilst those who don't report a few extra dollars to CentreCare get jumped on from a great height.

Australia has gone down this path because it accepts leaders who lie and deceive and abuse the rule of law. If this country descends to mob rule, it has its own dishonesty and its support of the abuse of law to blame.

Rant ends here. I feel better now.

Enaj, I think you miss the point a little bit.

You obviously do not know what Cronulla was like before last Sunday.

I have family who used to regularly go to Cronulla to swim and surf, who no longer go because they have been the victims of harassment for years by Lebanese gangs.

As someone who is a strong advocate for women's rights on this site (and good on you) you should be equally critical of these gangs who terrorise young women, such as happened to my 14-year-old cousin who was threatened with rape and has been too scared to go back.

What happened last weekend was wrong, but it was in response to poor upholding of the law. Vigilantism only exists where there is a perception police are not doing their job.

t.u.s

i JUST SAW THE MOST TERRIBLE EMAIL I HAVE EVER BEEN SENT.

I am advising all to stay away from cronulla and lakemba this sunday, under the 'brothers ans sisters of Anzacs' banner terrible things are scheduled to happen.

It sounds like a white extremist wrote it, but if 1% of readers concur we will be in for very tense times.

If anyone has family within the zones please go to a motel or to family for the night, just this night, in the interests of safety.

this is getting too much even for me, lebs, whites whoever, i know it is hard but it is time to walk away, the crabs are being drawn.

"What happened last weekend was wrong, but it was in response to poor upholding of the law. Vigilantism only exists where there is a perception police are not doing their job."

Good point t.u.s

What as really disappointed, and occasionally disgusted me are the posts on this topic which seem to revel in Sundays events, as if the breakdown in law and order among the locals (and not so local) somehow vindicates their extremist position. They do not; all they show is that Anglo Aussies (or whatever tag we are using) have an equal disregard for the real principals of Australian society, democracy, the rule of law, freedom from fear and persecution, as the leb Aussie gangs.

As some one who has been the victim of racist name-calling, and the child of some one who has been beaten up for "being Asian on public transport", the weekend's violence at Cronulla is terrifying to me.

Cronulla and peoples' reaction to it remind me of another incident of inter-racial violence such as that on the weekend: the massacre of Chinese miners at Lambing Flat (near Young) in 1861.

The result was the enforced restriction of Chinese migrants' movement around the colony of New South Wales and an immigration tax aimed at Chinese people to discourage immigration. This seems like a familiar argument (and it should: the residents of Cronulla who led the weekend's violence wanted no more "lebs" at their beach, and immigration restrictions have been rolled out in the recent past as a solution to the "terrorist threat").

It is a particular type of person who imbues an entire group with the characteristics of an individual. Sweeping statements like "all white people are racist" or "all Muslims are violent", which may have at one point been based on an individual interaction, have no place in informing the collective consciousness. I'd like to think it is a very big leap from "a man I believe to be of middle-eastern appearance yelled abuse at me" to "there's one! Get him!". The unfortunate coincidence of skin colour or racial characteristics is not something one can do much about (nor would most choose to) and for many unfortunate individuals of a variety of backgrounds at the weekend and beyond, it was a defining factor in their physical safety.

Language is important in defining who we are: our leaders' responses to the Cronulla violence are full of meaning also: to ignore their explicit and implicit statements is to ignore an important influence in defining the acceptability of behaviours and reactions.

It is reasonable to ask the question: after the condemnation of violence, where is the tolerance that helps us to rebuild our community and move forward as a unified society?

One only has to read through the above posts to verify racism is alive and well in Australia.

We lefties don't have say a thing. (but i just couldn't help myself)

Bingo

John howard has incited fear and faned Australias rascist and xenophobic underbelly for electoral gain, and now there is blood on his hands.

Time to go Johny!

John Kerr had to be a member of the most anti-Australian government this country has ever seen.

During the politically correct madness of the Labor years everything Anglo-Australian was categorised as 'bad' and everything nonAnglo-Australian was 'good'. In a Marxist inspired 'dead weight of history' philosophy, the government seemed hell bent on eradicating everything inherited from our 'white' past and replacing it with a new ideology called variously; "We Lack Self Confidence", "We Have an Inferiority Complex", "You're better Than Us", or by its official name, multiculturalism. For the kids in charge it became a kind of substitute for 1991 and their Communist Utopia Lost.

And it seems a leopard doesn't change its spots. So many years later Kerr is still trotting out the same, 'we're bad, you're good', party line.

Perhaps John Kerr (and his supporters) would care to take a look at 'multiculturalism' as it works in Lebanon before he calls Australians racist. He might specifically take a look at the period 1975 -1990, where around 100,000 people were killed in a religious and ethnically divided civil war.

Drewd,

If you don't suffer from an inferiority complex how do you explain your inferiority complex? Pray tell

Hmmm... What is the implication of the term "racist" anyway? Does it mean that the people must then go on trial or maybe will miss out on heaven?
I spose the adage "dont judge a book by its cover" would be broken if one were ajudged "Racist"

Morris Iemma has a police shortage because he uses them primarily as revenue collectors.How many times have you passed a RBT unit with six police and no one on call for robberies or assaults?Why not have one policeman and five RTA people to man the RBTs.Also use the RTA manpower to manage the traffic.

This has the double bonus of freeing up more police to counter crime, but also it removes the resentment the public feels toward police for being revenue collectors.You will then raise the status of the police,get a higher quality of recruit and have less crime.

If Morris still doesn't have enough police,talk to John Howard about rebadging with police uniforms,people from the army, who then can be our riot police.Morris proposes a force of 50 men for the whole of Sydney.This is totally inadaquate.

When the dust settles they will go back to their old tricks of spasmodic strikes on unsuspecting individuals and the cycle will begin again.We need zero tolerance and real consequences for thuggery.

I can't see Morris Iemma taking tough decisive action ,since the problem eminates from his electorate.

Racism is ugly in all forms, my grandfather told me of his first experiences in Australia, how he would be taunted by fellow pupils in the early 1900's. Australia has always been one of those countries where new immigrants were treated badly, but over time, learned to blend in with the population. First were the Italians, then the Greeks, then soviet bloc countries, then asians, and lastly middle eastern countries. All races have made a positive,contribution add to our society, and sadly most races have something negative to add. We tend to take the positives, e.g variety if food, culture etc... We are a much enhanced society for multi-culturism, if only as a society we could learn to welcome people of different races, instead of making them go through an iniatition ceromony before they are accepted, we would surely heap the benefits, sadly some in our society are unable to do this. Why is it that we must catergorise gangs as Muslim gangs, instead of just plain gangs, and deal with the gang, rather than the race? To me thugs are thugs, whether they are black, white or brindle, and should be treated as such, equal under the law, without discrimination, if they act irresponsably, charge them they are breaking the law. What do we sat when a gang is made up of different races, we then try to put them in a socio-economic bracket, what is needed is not a vicous crackdown, but rather acceptance, why is it that hospitals and other workplaces can work in harmony, yet the racial card is played in political terms. One can only deduce it is for political gain, divide and conquer a theory as old as Nepoleon, sadly an apathetic public fall for it every time, by the way my grandfather was English.

Rainier

God you whinge and whine.

Can you tell us how to fix this tragedy?

Please don't give me Abbo stuff and Anglo stuff.

Please don't tell me because I am white and that Captain Cook invaded this country, that I am the cause.

I have lived with Aboriginal people.

You would not listen in previous posts about my experiences with my fan-bloody-tastic Aboriginal friends.

Stop blaming Captain Cook. I have Irish and Polynesian heritage. My GGG grandma was a Polynesian Lady. I love that! Indeed, she was a Princess.

When I lived in Townsville, people thought that I had Aboriginal heritage because of my features. My Murray mates laughed their heads off when I told them my heritage.

You always come across as a really angry person.

Merry Christmas
Kay

I lived in the 'Shire' till I was 17 years old then moved to Western Australia when the smack dealing in Cronulla became rife, when the Rebels set up camp, when the massage parlours turned to brothels and when I'd had my face punched in more than twice by young men from suburbs far away.

In fact I've had broken fingers, deep lacerations to the hand, fractured skull, broken arms and all other sorts of nasties as a result of 'defending' the shire. I've grown up since I was a toddler beleiving it was 'my shire' and 'our place'and defend it at all cost.

Twenty years later I have moved back into the 'Shire' only to find it's ten times worse...... that is without comparing it to the town seiges in Roebourne or the schizo solvent-fuelled bashings in Meekatharra or Halls Creek or maybe even the explosive state of Mount Newman on any given night. The 'Shire' is a convicts pissing-post compared to what goes down in some of the regional and remote regions of our sunburnt country.

There is no idyllic peaceful Cronulla and as far back as I can remember there never has been. Remember the punks and the head-bangers 'smashing' every night of the week up and down the Cronulla line? Remember the stolen car chasing, the paddy-wagon bashings and the 'Sutho' disco fights or the brawls at Northies with Rose Tattoo egging everyone on?

The fact is, we live in a country that is commiting genocide everyday of the week. Check out who gets jailed and for what. Our Indigenous roots are eroded. Without the Indigenous elders of Australia meeting, greeting and joining with the Indigenous elders of all other nations who have come here to call this place home our country will have civil wars, divides, killings, bashings and so on - every increasingly.

BBQ's and beers are not the answer. Nor are bongs and bigotry.

Smashing a lifesaver irrespective of their smartass-lip aint the answer either.

Kay, I am a Townsville boy born and bred, and have no racial predudice, I look at all people as people, good, bad or ugly, they have their own story to tell, and tell it they must, I admire you for your convictions. I have worked with ignorant, aggogant whites, and beautifull considerate Torres Straight Islanders, and have learnt from the experience that all races have good and bad, as an example take Bradley Murdock, convicted today of mudrering Peter Falconio in 2001, his is as white as white can be, but still a bad bas#$%d. People like to catergorise others, by race, socio-enconomic background etc, however the absolute truth is that an individual is an individual, what ever race socio-economic background, or any other label which is tried. As for you, I couldn't care less what background you come from, all I am interested in is your philosophies, certainly not what colour your skin is.

G'day SHONGA

Thanks Shaun - love that name.

I loved Townsville with a passion. Sadly my partner and I did not love each other enough. Well, I guess not sadly in retrospect. I now have a wonderful ten pound pommie husband - for the last ten years!!

I loved having Erika Kyle in my home - and others who were wonderful to me. Tellya what - they can play chess better than you and I can!

Cheers
Kay

About this fighting going on in Sydney... people bashing the life out of one another and draping the national flag over their shoulders and chanting 'Aussie Aussie Aussie', WHILE wearing American baseball caps! Are these people so stupid that they can't see the irony in that? What a great aliance we have with the yanks!

Methinks young Duncan lives in small state as distant from racial sensitivity as you can get. Maybe something to do with his constituent's ancestors destroying the race first living in Tasmania.

He lives in the closeted world of ALP Federal politics that has nothing to contribute to this issue - except to chant.

"When we waltz into Canberra Big Kim can do it better".

Attacks on the legitimate state of law and order always make me especially “moderate”.

ASSUMING POLICE CAN HANDLE IT

I agree that the large number of police shipped in from all over NSW are unsustainable and largely a political embarrassment reaction.

The Lebanese gangs are obviously lying low until the police numbers can again be largely ignored.

I think the only way for this issue to be handled month by month, year in year out, is to employ many more police in trouble spots, permanently.

This will take an increase in national, state and local taxes but in a normal state of law (without states of emergency and other political event making).

There's no substitute for a legally knowledgable, fit, state run police force.

IMMIGRATION COSTS

In terms of revenue raising (for this) - increased entry fees (including family reunion "scams") for all but tourist visas should be boosted. If we only get those who can raise the non-refundable fees (Hong Kong Chinese, rich Americans, hard working kiwis etc) this may put many review lawyers out of work but it’s a price we must shoulder.

Johnny Howard has been very quiet about the discomfiture of the NSW State LABOR Government over the immediate mess. I'd expect the Federal Government will rightly use this as an opportunity to tighten immigration measures.

THE ARMY?

I think the Lebanese gangs should be rightly seen as the problem, as a criminal group (not racism). If the state police (or state politicians) lack the guts, states of emergency can be declared and the Army can deal with the gangs before they get too smug.

Kay/Shonga,

I went to Town High (actually expelled for fighting;-), back in its bad ol' days).

My family is friends with the Prior's from palm (consequently we don't get on the Kyles).

Long time back I was told a story by Flo Prior;

We had been south to conduct some archeological surveys, and on the way back we stopped to see the hollow rock near the AIMS turnoff (right next to the road - it has a painting in the hollow).

Anyway, somebody saw us, and remarked to Flo (back in town) 'who were the two miglu's I saw you with at yada yada etc.? She thought for a minute and said 'they aren't miglu's, thats Aaron and Mick'. Not bad for a lady that had a dog that hated white people EH (Now you know I am from NQ, eh).

Also had one of the elders come down to a camp we had at a site we tried to claim (people had been there for 1 week prior to his arrival), and upon getting out of the car - he looked at all the tents, tarps, fires, stuff everywhere (we were busy)and stated that 'It looked like a black's camp'. (RIP Gindi-gindi).

Now Duncan,

Please explain how the fire bombing of churches in Sydney last night is John Howard's fault?

There is no racism involved in that. Lots of bigotry and hate but no racism!

I saw a lot of drunken and drugged boofheads at Cronulla on Sunday but I didn't see too many drunken or drugged churchgoers.

Anyone who thinks the violence is anything other than the result of inspiration from Islamic beliefs is kidding themselves.

Anyone who thinks John Howard responsible for that type of bigotry needs to sit and read about the history of Islam and ideally not just focus on the Qu'ran and the Sunnah. They should read of the two major periods of Islam. The magnificance of the Rise of Islam and the Arab empire, from the 6th Century AD to the 11th Century AD and it's stagnation with the return to fundamentalism and Wahhibism from the 11th Century AD to the present day.

You'll soon see the fundamental cause of the repetition of the violence, throughout the later part of Islamic history, it's perpretation mostly upon infidels, and the tacit and sometimes open, support given it by large sections of Muslim communities. All are fostered by two basic tenets of the religion. The tenet of Muslim Solidarity and the tennet of Innovations. Forget the incitement to violence in many parts of the Qu'ran. They are not so significant. Most Muslims reject those avenues anyway but the other two tenets are accepted by many Muslims without much reservation. It is those tenets which has caused and is causing the angry violence perpretrated by minorities in the name of Islam and the subsequent (Self) alienation of Muslim communities.

Definition: racism

n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

Racism is not about culture, or groups of individuals of similar backgrounds seeking to live together, or groups of people wanting to continue their past way of life. This is all about the free choice to live your life. That is what is here and now. Racism tries to disrupt this.

Racism is intrinsically connected with force. With force comes power and use of fear. We have enough major problems in Australia that we dont need people to go back to the times when racism flourished in the world, all countries be it on colour or tribal lines or birth place, for benefit and damage, we wont get too far as a divided country.

I am a proud Australian, and I will fight anything that seeks to divide my country. I would rather walk the streets of Australia with free and content people, than angry people with frustrated lives looking for any outlet to let loose.

I stand for removal of any element from our society that breeds hate.

Sam

t.u.s, you say I always stand up for women so I should be condemning the Lebanese gangs and their behaviour on the beach (sorry to refer to a post so far back but this is the first chance I've had). I might have condemned their behaviour, if I was there, but I wouldn't have seen it as an excuse to bash any Lebanese (or Lebanese looking) person who happened past.
Also, there is a wonderful letter in todays SMH lacerating this justification by a woman who lives in the area. She says all sorts of people have hassled and harrassed her at the beach -yelling out sexist things and calling her names - but that most of them were Anglos and the only thing they all had in common was that they were men. She says she is now much more frightened about going to the beach than she ever was when it was only rude remarks she had to fear.
And what is this "our women" crap? Since when did women belong to anyone? As a woman I felt sick to my stomach when I saw the violence last Sunday, and what I saw was a bunch of Anglo-Aussies acting like terrorists.
Howard must accept some responsibility for this event. He has been cynically fear mongering for 10 years, and fear is a dangerous emotion to play with and manipulate. There is always a strong chance it will get out of hand, as it has. You see, we tend to hate what we fear.

ericc - i do beleive i have to agree with you.

i believe that this is not John Howards fault but the ppl who are involved. the ppl that tell others that they aren't 'Australian' but are Middle Eastern or watever and tell others to call them Midd.East.'s and then get angry when ppl do it's crazy. i see it like this - don't tell ppl to call you something if your later going to get angry at them for calling you that. there would be no violence at cronulla if ppl would just ignore things like the text message that was sent around to ppl. if something doesn't directly involve you (i.e. watever was said or done was said or done to you personally - ot your best mate or sister or watever - YOU) then don't get involved! it's only going to cause more trouble and more ppl will get hurt.

Dear Enaj
you have been filling your mind with tooooo much feminist stuff mate..
"Our" women does NOT signify they 'belong' to anyone, it simply means 'of our ethnicity' or social grouping or our clan.. they are part of us, and we are part of them, more so than of any other group, by simple genetics and culture.

Unless the police show a much more concerted interest in

Identifying (They have the video of faces and make of car)
apprehending
Charging
Convicting
and SENTENCING

....the Lebanese youths who screamed the "We are going to f*ck your mothers" on national TV and make consipicuous examples of them (Just like the pack rapists) ;they will only have succeeded in convincing that segment of the Lebanese community that it is worthwhile having Morris Iemma on 'their' side, as he 'TALKS' tough, but acts....soft ?

Tim Priests work has clearly shown the absolute and corrupt social bias of some magistrates during the 90s where they would free the perpetrator and blame the police for 'cultural insensitivity'.. its disgusting and outrageous and is the primary cause for such blatant outbursts from those who literally, as a result, think they can get away with murder.

I notice the magistrate 'sent a powerful message' to the 'aussie' community by throwing the book immediately at an Aussie guy for 'carring a branch'.. wow..shock horror.. to defend himself from the marauding car loads of rampaging lebs who have beaten senseless various innocent Aussies in places like Castle Hill and Rhyde.

Every Aussie at the moment would be quite justified in carrying a baseball bat or a concealed licenced weapon as they walk about the street. HOW DARE that magistrate describe it IN PENRITH as an 'offensive weapon'.... SHAME magistrate ! I'll bet he will change his tune when his son or daughter is beaten to a pulp when 5 Lebs attack them at random with baseball bats or golf clubs.

Could anyone who has seen any... list the Lebs jailed for any recent attacks, and describe their sentences ? Please.. I can't find any

we can neither confirm nor deny wether david boaz has been interviewd by azio under the new terror legislation.

enaj,

I don't condone what happened last weekend, but I can see why it happened.

When people do not think they are being protected by a legitimate law enforcement agency, they will try to take the law into their own hands and almost always this power will be abused.

I don't blame the police, it is their political masters who must let them do their job properly. Policing should be about law enforcement not keeping the peace.

Judges also need to hand down heavier sentences so the police feel their hard work is being recognised.

Since law enforcement is a state government responsibility I can't see how it is John Howard's fault, unless you expect him to bring in the army to stop the riots. This is a criminal problem not a racial one.

(PS, I did not mention anything about "our women")

Does anyone else think it is ironic that the people who celebrate violent riots outside detention centres or disrupting world trade organisation meetings are the same ones shaking their heads at the Cronulla violence.

t.u.s

Boazy and "its not easy..."

Rest assured ASIO is doing its job in monitoring incitment to "politically motivated violence" in the community.

I'd imagine the usual means for monitoring the internet is by concentrating on influential sites often frequented by extremists (like this one).

and

its use of global key word searches whould lead it to "hot" strings of sites. Words may include "Lebo, riot, action, patriotic, race, revenge, meeting" etc.

So this string might well be monitored (I hope it is), particularly regarding where some people's thinking is going.

Some may have mates who were/are in high places but look at the history of Northern Ireland and the failure of the Black and Tans, RUC, IRA or other paramilitary (or militia groups) to sort out the problem. Lots of blood and you only breed generations who think it is their religious (including Christian) duty to kill.

Leave it to the Police. If the Police fail leave it to the Army.

Planta..
yes.. I sympathize with your comments. As for monitoring..I also HOPE it is.. because what better way to articulate an argument to the powers to be who might see the unwise direction of 'politicizing' these events in ways which will ultimately have the same effect socially as you are describing regarding extremists? The only difference would be the time factor.
Sooner...or later... comes to mind.

I've tried to keep my contributions completely within the rule of law framework. . Self defence is lawful behavior. I reject the word 'vigilante'. It is a political convenience often used to bad mouth desperate people who are not protected by the state. I am philosophically robust enough to know when I'm being given 'convenient spin' by people with vested interests. (i.e. Tough talk, soft action,for political reasons...Iemma and gang :)

No one gets it completely 'right'. Cromwell is the historic figure I most closely identify with (DEFINITELY not 'Mosely' as Pericles suggests) But I see clearly where Cromwell went too far, and with the benefit of hindsight, such brutal excesses can be avoided.

RANCITAS.. I refer you to my post on 'lawful defence' (other thread) I can see why your mind jumped from my post to the images portrayed in the media. They were as ugly to me as they were to you. Thanx for pointing out the possibility that I could be misinterpreted there.

Lets look at how it might have built up on that particular beach.
1/ Lebs come in small numbers at first.
2/ Some ratbag aussies probably bad mouthed them in a racist way.
3/ Because of this, they came in bigger numbers for better self protection
4/ But when they saw they had 'the numbers' they just turned the tables and mistreated ALL AND SUNDRY 'because they are aussie sluts' etc.
5/ As migration continued, family re-unions, arranged marraiges etc.. the numbers were LARGER.
6/ Now... it is a territory grab.

Can you think of any policy solution ?

No committed Christian would or should be a part of the mindless rampage of Sunday specially against police etc.

1.I think it is simplistic to blame John Howard for the events in Sydney of recent times. He has however demonstrated a breathtaking lack of leadership when it has come to addressing the concerns of the Islamic community as well as those of the rest of the electorate with regard to inter racial tension. He along with Bob Carr essentially fiddled while the flames were kindled around their Rome – Iemma as a relative clean skin will be measured by his response.

In Howard’s initial foray into this mess he refused to recognise the racial element to these riots. He is renowned for his caution in this regard. To his discredit the words he offers when confronted with these issues is usually “Australia is not a racist country” – he is probably right but he refuses to recognise the fact that we have long had a history of racism expressed politically and violently – to accept that does not make us inherently racist it merely faces the facts.

In the great Australian tradition he continues to have a bet each way – he equivocated on the wearing the Hajib – his reason for not endorsing a ban was that it was impractical – too hard; he sort of did not defend the right to wear it and sort of implied if was easy he would ban it in an attempt to keep some faith with both camps.

Similarly he refused to criticise those who, while draped in the Australian flag committed acts of violence – he preferred to say there was nothing wrong with being proud of said flag; I fully expect him to come back to our shores and declare it to be a State matter only – one of failed NSW ALP and the local police policies – technically he would be correct; morally he would just be running for cover – this has happened on his watch

Pt 2
This is occurring to a lesser extent nation wide. If not the violence the underlying sentiments that have given birth to it. It is a national issue.

These pages are full of half-baked theories on Islam. Post after post is critical of Muslims. Racist or not the views represent deep-seated fear and anger. Church leaders, even the shock jocks in their own peculiar way have been pointing to these problems this environment has now brought. These sentiments aren’t limited to these pages. They are part of mainstream opinion - well publicised.

For a government to turn its back on this kind of wide spread disaffection within its own community is negligent; it spent millions on advertising, not the detail of its IR legislation, but the assumptions underlying it and their hopes in relation to it – yet when face with a problem, clouded by concerns over immigration and its handling of it, clouded by the half truths and ghosts swirling around terrorist activity, clouded by misapprehension over religious observances and beliefs, it has sat on its hands. It has offered little if anything other than rhetoric – some have even poured a little scorn on the Muslim community as well.

The riots will stop. Without leadership the sentiments will remain. But there are elements of the community Muslim and non Muslim who are now cowering in their homes wondering where will the leadership come from to sort this mess out. At the moment we have a few salty surfers and the odd rugby league celebrity trying to build some bridges; while it is a start and well meaning that wont cut it. Laying blame on participants at this late stage will achieve nothing as much as a bit of leadership might. Right now we have plenty of the former and precious little of the latter.
kym

Hey Sneeky.
I think you give the shock Jocks some credit for pointing to the 'problem'when you should be critically examining the work of Alan Jones in fanning the flames of racism through his talk back.
The causes for this violent rampage amongst community groups needs proper unbiassed analysis with a view to correcting the problem before hastening to apportion blame and media,State and Federal Government policies and actions should be a part of the analysis.

OFF TOPIC
Boaz,
Just a minor point. The police’ role is to investigate and subsequently charge a person for matters for which they believe they have sufficient evidence.

Depending on whether the charge is a simple offence or serious criminal offence, they may prosecute it – or it may be prosecuted by the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, also with the possible election of the offender as to hearing or trial.

Police do not have any involvement or say in the sentencing of offenders.

Further, the charges laid must have sufficient evidence to take to court. What constitutes evidence is guided by case law and legislation.

I think your desire to see the police do more may come from a lack of knowledge as to exactly what powers, legislation and evidence the police have at their disposal.

And what is the offence for screaming “We’re going to F*&* your mothers”?

ON TOPIC
This incident is a criminal matter.

It should be dealt with as such. Suggestions of race, religion, etc are muddying the waters and inflaming the problem. Perhaps if people called on their local members for more funding to police and better, clearer legislation, these problems could be addressed.

Calls to ‘bear arms’ against others is inciting civil unrest and should be dealt with as such, perhaps under the new sedition laws.

There are deeper issues which should be discussed openly and addressed – social alienation, economic inequity, insufficient education resources being just some.

If anyone thinks this is ‘just a race and culture issue’, it is probably that they have little understanding of the human condition and what causes people to behave in anti-social, destructive (to self and others) ways.

Please consider following 'Courier Mail' report:
"Man charged over Schoolies assaults
From:
Phil Bartsch and Rosanne Barrett

November 24, 2005

A MAN, 20, appeared in Southport Magistrate's Court yesterday over two attacks on Schoolies revellers on the Gold Coast.
Roy Paulo of Redbank Plains, Ipswich, is charged with assault occasioning grievous bodily harm against 18-year-old Lucas Miller, who was king-hit on the Esplanade at Surfers Paradise on Saturday night.
Miller suffered facial fractures and will require reconstructive surgery.
His father, Brisbane radio announcer John Miller, launched a campaign to shut down the end-of-school event after the brutal bashing.
Paulo also is charged with assault occasioning bodily harm while in company over an attack on a 17-year-old youth in sand dunes near the Northcliffe Surf Life Saving Club on Monday night.
Advertisement:

The teenager also sustained facial injuries.
Police arrested Paulo in the early hours of yesterday morning after an officer recognised him from the widely distributed Comfit picture.
He was at the beach at Surfers Paradise.
Paulo was remanded in custody to reappear for a further mention of three matters in January.
Thirty-five people were arrested on 45 charges on Tuesday night, the fifth night of Schoolies celebrations. Only 11 of those arrested were schoolies.
Most of the charges related to public nuisance and disorderly behaviour.
This brought the number of people arrested to 191, of which only 35 have been school-leavers.
Two non-school-leaver juveniles were arrested after allegedly carrying knives within the Schoolies entertainment precinct of Cavill Mall, Cavill and Orchid avenues and The Esplanade.
Gold Coast police were yesterday warning schoolies to be alert about the possible dangers of older non-school-leavers who were crashing the Schoolies party.
Gold Coast Superintendent Brett Pointing said the majority of schoolies were well behaved but older revellers used "predatory behaviours" to cause trouble."

Why does the behaviour of certain young Lebanese at Cronulla get such dramatic response and media beat up while "predatory behaviours" of mostly Christian (and unqualified) lads and girls at the GG (see article above) go over without much ado for the so-called patriots? (Southern Cross).

I wonder if the policeman who used his stick to flog the young Aussies last Sunday will ever wonder why he did it?
It looked as he was bashing a mob of rabid dogs. It was the most disgusting display of over done authority I have ever seen in my country.
If the police authorities did their jobs properly, the trouble would never have developed the way it has.
Pull the antisocial mob into control but be careful of stirring the fed up Aussies who want to see some fairness on our beaches.

Yes rancitas,
Why is it ‘only criminal behaviour’ if they are Anglo Christians? But Middle Eastern means terror, Muslim extremism or some other non-sense if they look different?

I have worked in law enforcement for some long years now and I can tell you all from experience, I have interacted with ‘tribal’ trouble from all corners of the earth in this one State. None of it was ‘ethnic’. It was criminal or antisocial, not anything but.

I will freely admit that gangs and criminals can tend to work from similar backgrounds. Isn’t that to be expected when this country essentially herds them into groups for their own comfort, since many openly don’t want to live next to that ‘ethnic’ person?

But I have seen Asians, Middle Easterners, Anglos and any other race you care to mention working together for criminal enterprise.

The issue is not the ethnicity. It is the individual who chooses the path of easy gain – or has a drug problem, or lack of an education, or socially imposed economic inequity. These are the root causes. All else is just obfuscation to the true issues.

Well, that’s 2 for today… guess I’ll have to wait now!

Having read the article but not the comments (yet)it's true, it's true. If a government wins elections because voters like its policies, the Howard government has never legitimately won an election. He's only ever won because either the electorate wasn't too keen on the alternative or because he's stirred up fear and resentment on the basis of race or culture.

Looking at the posts on other articles it's amazing the number of people who normally express degrees of racism, xenophobia, whatever you want to call it, who recognise that this time the line in the sand has been crossed.

The threat of continuing violence is more tangible and immediate than the abstract threat of a possible and vague terrorist attack. People can understand that a little racism is tolerable, but this time it's gone too far.

Howard introduced the white worriers to the lunar right and we now have the result. In the meantime the white worriers are worried that Christmas was all Barnaby managed to save. Right now is when an intelligent opposition would be sniffing out the tantalising scent of the extreme right's corpse. But no. I have to agree with some I'd normally disagree with and say we can anticipate a lot more biffo yet.

The irony is that if this plays out the way we scaredy cats suspect it might (but hope it won't) all the power in the world won't help Johnno sort it out. Left or right, Menzies is a name we can all respect for one reason or another. The Little Fella's legacy is looking rather ugly by contrast.

Kaliweb,

Hey, I'm just asking questions like everyone else?

And I didn't mention Cook or invasion once. Why did you read this into my post?

Me angry? Naah! I know Townsville well. Lived there for a long time

and if my mob were laughing at you I reckon they had good reason.

That's what clowns are for are they not?

Gotta love ya!

No Rainier

They (your "mob" and my friends) did not laugh "at" me, they laughed with me.

People who are regulars on OLO know that you blame white Aussies for just about anything that has to do with Indigenous Australians - or any Indigenous person who has become a successful person - without a chip on his or her back. I have read your responses to other threads for ages - as I am sure other posters have.

The Captain Cook anology was not above your head. I know that you are very intelligent. OK - I took the bait!

Cheers fella
Kay

PS: Womba womba womba!!

"Privately, many Europeans confess to mistrust and dislike not of Jews, but of the millions of Muslim immigrants their governments have insisted upon importing. The feeling is not born of blind bigotry, but of frustration with the tangible social problems that have accompanied one of the greatest migrations in history. That so many Europeans object to misguided government policies would seem to be cause for hope that Eurabia's collision course with history can be averted....Europe's most urgent problem - millions of unassimilated Muslim immigrants, thousands of imams preaching Islamic supremacism, and self-proclaimed mujahideen bombing subways, raping teenagers, torching cars and churches. Many Europeans are upset and want action, but entrenched and aloof Eurocrats have so far refused to respond. Their steadfast inaction is producing two disturbing developments: frustrated citizens are being driven into the arms of extreme nationalist parties, which have been steadily gaining influence; and authorities are increasingly treating freedom of speech as a limited and negotiable right. The growing conflict between the government and the people is adding an even uglier dimension to the Eurabian experiment...." - Eurabia: The Incremental Tyranny by Emily Bradford.
Now, after the 'Cronulla Incident', instead of 'Europe', substitute 'Australia' and instead of 'aloof Eurocrats' substitute 'Australian Multiculturalists', MSM, politicians (left&right), etc. See a pattern emerging? Scary stuff.
In the French riots we heard about "youths" who do not think of their primary identity as ''French'', complaining about being marginalised. From what I've heard from the Islamic 'leaders' here, they're saying the same thing.
The locals (us) are racists, and have marginalised Muslim 'youths' and the only reason for the mayhem and attacks on churches (were churches bashing lebs at Cronulla?), bystanders, lifeguards, cars etc was because WE DROVE THEM TO IT. This is NOTHING to do with race and everything to do with Islam. CONTINUED.

Whether we like it or not, one of the core tenets of Islam is to spread Islam (by force, demographically - and after the numbers required are obtained, by force, da'wa, pen/propaganda/taqiyya - whatever), and sharia law, over the entire planet. They've even said so, and it's all in their 'holy' writings. Another core tenet is supremacy over Infidels, or anyone who isn't a Muslim. Jews are especially hated (mainly because they stopped being dhimmis and got some of their land back, but then, they were hated way before modern Israel too). Hindus are especially hated (see Kashmir, Pakistan, Bangladesh), too, 60-80 million Indians slaughtered, millions of forced conversions over a 200 year period - polytheists and idolators, you see, can't have that. Christians are pretty much depised too: witness the shrinking Christian populations, persecution, forced conversions, rapes, property theft etc, in Muslim countries, even the 'moderate' ones. Atheists, homosexuals, libertines, Buddhists, communists.....anything that isn't Muslim - they hate it. It's all in the book!
So unless we get some leaders with spine, the Australian public will not take this lying down (unlike the French), and they'll be more Cronullas.
Muslim immigration? Let's have free and frank discussions (without fear of being branded a 'bigot' or a 'racist') about it and put it to the vote.
And for those of you who refuse to acknowledge the 800 pound gorilla in the room, I am not stirring up 'hate', that was stirred up 1350 years ago - against Infidels.

Dear Reason
I’m going to try to be as objective as possible here. No offense also.

CRIMES ACT 1900- SECT 418
(1) A person is not criminally responsible for an offence if
-the person carries out the conduct constituting the offence in self- defence.
(2) A person carries out conduct in self-defence if and only if the person believes the conduct is necessary:
(a) to defend himself or herself or another person, or
(b) to prevent or terminate the unlawful deprivation of his or her liberty or the liberty of another person, or
(c) to protect property from unlawful taking, destruction, damage or interference, or
(d) to prevent criminal trespass to any land or premises or to remove a person committing any such criminal trespass,
and
the conduct is a reasonable response in the circumstances as he or she perceives them.END

NOTE.. the legal onus is now on the STATE to show the if individual had any malicious intent, not for the defender to show he did not.

In other words, proportional, reasonable. If they come at you with baseball bats, you can also use one. It could include the use of a licenced firearm if the offenders were brandishing and shooting them in a threatening manner with a clear intent to use.

So, calling people to defend the beach might be a slightly incorrect way of putting it, better put as defending the SAFETY of those ON the beach. Thank you for the reminder. But my primary call is for organized lawful defense of streets.

Failure to be so, will result in on going intimidation in any legal case, and the cowering and INTIMIDATION and dropping of charges forever.

The actions of the marauding attackers from Lakemba at Cronulla were criminal, to fight them off, with reasonable force, and if possible apprehend them is lawful.

SENTENCING .. I know about dpp etc...but Puh-lease don’t insult my intelligence by suggesting they are ‘impartial’ and immune to political influence.

Threats are illegal I can’t get the actual statute, please assist with a link to the full crimes act.
cheers

Duncan Kerr and his PC mates have no option but to deflect the blame on racist Anglos, John Howard and the Shock Jock media.[Shoot the messenger]He refuses to admit that Cronulla was the result of racist abuse by Middle Eastern gangs.No mention or soft option attitudes that destroyed the police force or poorly planned immigration programmes by Labour in the eighties that just took anyone under a family reunion scheme.Our immigration system took sections of the Middle Eastern community that were both tribal,ignorant, feral and fuelled by religious hate.There were plenty of others from the Middle east who were educated and could have found jobs here.

I used to teach out there and at a School of 80 different cultures most of those from Middle Eastern backgrounds struggled academically to achieve the most basic of skills.Taking to teachers at other schools in the area,it was also their experience.Other cultures were way in front.Just look at the language skills of many community leaders who have been here for years.This is not the case with all obivously,but large sections do struggle and it just adds more fuel to the fire of not being able to join in successfully in the general community.

It is a mess of our own making because we have failed in the past to confront the qualities in our immigrants that will enable them to intergrate into our communities.

GREATER PUBLIC AWARENESS + ZERO TOLERANCE FOR SEX OFFENDERS

http://www.mako.org.au/list.html

Please follow the link, go to the bottom of the page and click on a few faces.

The majority of sex offenders in Australia have been of Anglo-Saxon descent. Some of these people have murdered and raped children and have served their sentences. They are now at large in our fair city and all we can do is point the finger at the Lebanese community.

f_a_r

that may be because Anglos make up around 90 % of population.

Here are the current Acts and Regulations (Legislation) in force (official NSW Parliamentary Counsel's Office website):

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/scanact/inforce/NONE/0

Mr. Boaz, you may find the Crimes Act you are looking for under 'C', in the first section 'Acts in force'.

Also for the benefit of users of this forum, in addition to the Legislation index above, here is the official and comprehensive list of links to the Attorney Gerneral's Department:

http://www.australia.gov.au/portfolios#attorneygenerals

It has the following title:

'The Attorney-General's Department serves the people of Australia by providing essential expert support to the Government in the maintenance and improvement of Australia's system of law and justice.'

I would encourage everyone to familiarise themselves with the laws that they feel are relevant to them. The more people that know about the laws that govern them, the more stable and progressive our society will be. I believe that to be absolutely true. I know not one single school in Australia, either public or private, that teaches the school students of Australia about the legal system that will govern them for the remainder of their lives, except maybe as an elective subject for the HSC in SOME schools.. If someone knows of a school that does teach students about the legal system in its regular curriculum, please tell me it is so I can send my kids there in the future if I ever have any.

I wish everyone who is interested in the laws that govern them good luck with their research.

Boaz, Of course I can think of a policy direction and a community solution. Policy should be take a non-racist approach. Policy should be directed at trying to assist Australians accept the wisdom of non-violent resolution, policy should assist in ensuring multi-culturalism is portrayed in a positive light that it deserves, policy should assist in directing more resource to the DPP and police department (along with checks and balances), and, especially, policy should assist in fighting radicalism rather than promoting racism. The community can assist by NOT agitating in an aggressive and mean-spirited manner against Muslim, Christians, Indigenous and others that they regard as different. Perhaps a litte more PCness would help.

Your post re: "lawful defence", I think, given the circumstance was irresponsible. You could get some poor silly bugger jailed. For instance: you say that if someone comes at you with a baseball bat you can repond with a bat. The police would want to know why you had a bat. It would come down to your word against the other person. If there was no reliable witnesses (In the real world that means people not known to the parties), then you could be charged.

I was told of a situation where the police knew who had tortured, murdered an old digger. They knew who did it but the evidence has to be so strong as to be proven beyond doubt in court. That is the way it has to be so that innocent people aren't easily convicted.

Boaz, i like you (sort of) and don't want to see you get in the sh*t, so let me say that you were talking about going onto beaches with "brawn". That was unwise. Encouraging vigilanteism is wrong.

The situation you conjure doesn't consider the long-term political exploitation of racism nor the constant negative portrayal of all Muslims. Then there is the media. This has produced the them vs us climate. We must all reject radicalism. You are walking across wet paint Boaz -you never spoke of ratbags within groups nor offered excuses for other situations like the French situation. (Lucerne).

I as well wrote to Cronulla Surf as soon as BD posted the link ages ago, I wished them luck in dealing with the racism they have endured for so long and told them Australians would be behind them… and Australians are.

We all know Aussies aren’t in the wrong, shame they were violent but hey sh*t happens. To crack after years of tolerating the foul racist abuse from the lebs is no big deal. Dont worry soon there will be huge mass protests all legal and non violent against PC Islam Lebs.

One drunken arvo of totally reasonable resentment brings a week of ultra violence from lebs…

Oioioi isn’t the skinhead chant it’s the Aussie sport chant.

The Comancheros bikie gang (Milperra massacre) and the lebs are GANGS! The “Bra Boys” are lifesavers… Bet that was a genuine peace agreement, Peace our way or we kill you.

Iemma holds his seat in Lakemba… yeh right we know where his bread is buttered.

If it’s reasonable for the lebs to ask to patrol our beaches, what on earth is wrong with us having the same rights? Do you think the lakemba mosque would share its territory with us? Do we get our-self appointed police patrolling Auburn so we can wear bikinis safely and walk our pet pigs safely past the mosque? Get a grip people… are you into equality or not?

Aussies temper sure snapped! We are a nation of tuff convicts not pussies like France. PC may have the media but it doesn’t have the silent majority.

forgive _ and _ remember

I found your post on zero tolerance somewhat confusing.

So you have zero tolerance for all white Australian sex offenders (and I agree wholeheartedly!), but you will tolerate Lebanese youths who gang rape white Australian girls "Leb Style" (Lebanese youth words, not mine)? What an incredible position you take. You are the first person I have ever heard who condones Lebanese gang rape on young Australian girls.

Kay

If the pontificating media (SBS. ABC, the Age etc) are so concerned with racism/intolerance in Australia, by all means, lets speak out against racism and racist books that inspire people to racial hatred. Take the Qur'an and ahadith for instance. They're chock full of Jew (apes and monkeys) hatred and racism against Black Africans (raisin-heads and slaves) and general intolerance of ALL non-Muslims.
1. Jew hatred - There are hundreds of references to this in the Qur'an and ahadith, here are just a few: Qur’an 4:55, 59:14-17, 5:41-42, 98:1, 5:80, 2:52-65, 59:2-6, 2:52-65, 5:59-60, 7:166. Ishaq:250, 240, 524, 248, 262, 364.
Tabari VIII:116,VIII:121,VII:87,VII:97,VIII:29,VIII:38. Bukhari:V4B56N679,V4B52N176.
2. Black Africans: considered by Muslims to be on the lowest rung of the racial ladder (Arabs are on the top rung) and are generally thought of as slaves (see Sudan, Niger, Mali, Mauritania etc - now, and “The Hideous Trade” by Jan Hogedoorn - the last 1100 years). Ishaq:243, 144, 405, 374. Tabari II:11, II:21. Bukhari:V9B89N256, V4B52N137.
3. General intolerance of ALL non-Muslims - where to begin.... here's a few: Qur’an 9:71, 8:59, 33:60-64, 5:10, 88:1, 5:78, 5:51, 72:15-25, 66:9, 60:1-5, 48:13, 9:28-33 (there are many more in the Qur’an). Bukhari:V4B54N487, V4B52N288, V5B59N572. Ishaq:344, 231, 363.
This kind of intolerant literature - neo-nazi, white-supremacist, satanist, Islamic, Christian etc needs to be exposed, ridiculed and rejected by ALL Australians, not just Anglos.
Some Muslims and their apologists will tell you that these texts don't apply anymore or have been taken 'out of context'. Don't believe them. Check them out for yourself, check out the statements of Al Qaeda, Muslim clerics and scholars, Malaysia’s Mahathir Mohamad etc. Check out everything that is happening globally today. Here are some examples:
An interview with Basmallah, a three-year-old girl, aired on Saudi TV, who was introduced as a “Muslim girl, a true Muslim”. Here’s the exchange:
Host: Basmallah, do you know the Jews?
Basmallah: Yes.
Host: Do you like them?
Basmallah: No.
Host: Why don’t you like them?
Basmallah: Because they are apes and pigs.
I shuddered to read such a thing. Where did she get these opinions?
CONTINUED

"Just Like Hitler Fought The Jews…We Too Should Fight The Jews and Burn Them"
Yet people still call the anti-jihad resistance Hitlerian. "Lebanon's Largest Government University Hosts Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV Symposium Calling to Wipe Israel Off The Map......excerpts from a symposium of students at Universite Libanaise, hosted by Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV and broadcast November 29, 2005.
"Stories From Before the Verses Came Down" was a Jordanian-produced series that ran on Saudi Iqra TV in February 2005; which was based on the Jews of the time of Mohammed. The series portrayed the Jews as despicable "pigs" scheming against Mohammed. Part of the plot included Jews altering the Torah to hide the fact that Mohammed was a true prophet; how early Jews planned "a very long war" against the decendents of Muslims and Jews depicted as having "joined forces with Satan." One episode showed Jews engaged in voodoo, creating a doll of Mohammed and sticking it with needles in his head, liver, and eyes.
Iranian state television has broadcast a cartoon that glorifies suicide bombings against Israelis, depicting a young boy blowing himself up after being told: "Go and show the Zionists how brave and heroic are the children of Palestine." The day before the cartoon was shown, Ahmadinejad declared at a World Without Zionism conference: "This stain of disgrace [Israel] will be wiped off the face of the world - and this is attainable."...
Last Thursday the president of Iran chose to stand with the cranks, neo-fascists and racists who deny the factual truth of the Holocaust. Ahmadinejad was speaking in the holy city of Mecca, head office of the “religion of peace,” during a meeting of the Organization of the Islamic Conference. There were fiftysomething other heads of government in town. How many do you think took their Iranian colleague to task?
This kind of bigotry, racism and intolerance should ( along with neo-nazi, white supremacist, Christian, communist, Buddhist - whatever) be rejected utterly, openly discussed and robustly debated in Australia without fear of 'offending' minorities who are 'Infidelophobes' or simply Negro, Asian or Jew haters.

Mr. Kerr,
What a ripper of an article, did Mandue Habib help you write it, or was he the author and you put your name on it. Ether way, the next time you both campaign in Universities about Western Imperialism and American terrorism, remember your derogatory contempt for the very society you have looted for so long, and still are looting. Mandue the Terrorist lecturer has an odd spin to it, what next Mr. Kerr, PhD in Ad infinitum and Duplicity in ill-begotten wealth. Another economic and Intellectual Terrorist dressed in ex-Labour party clothes counting all your Tax dollars in his account. People Take note.

Dear Skid
I hope you will not lump "Christians" in with all those others you metioned in future.

<<along with neo-nazi, white supremacist, Christian, communist, Buddhist - whatever>>

I appreciate your passion, and your very thorough research and if you recall, it was I who actually invited you here. (from Faris QC blog)

If you have specific issues with Christ, why not talk about them ?
I don't find any similarity at all between 'white supremacist/Neo Nazi's' and Biblical Christians.

I asked you here because of the wealth of information you are able to present, and even though you seem to be against 'Christians' also, I don't mind, because your contributions stand by themselves anyway.

But your mention/lumping of 'Christians' with those others seems to indicate an area in your thinking which needs some dialogue.
So, if you don't mind, could you demonstrate reasons (accurate ones) why you felt Christians should be associated with those others ?
So lets talk about it.

ON TOPIC
The very phrase "Racism in Cronulla" is evidence itself of a very racist disposition by the Author. He fails to make a title more generally truthful "Ethnic Racism in Cronulla" where the clear issue is racism by NLNM toward "non Lebanese non Muslim" for a long period which triggered the reaction on last sunday.

He would have better titled his piece "Cronulla Reaction to Racism" and described those who furiously attacked people of Lebanese appearance as 'misguided, but with genuine grievances'. Or, mentioned the deliberate attempt by a few 'supremacists' to hijack a peaceful protest.

BD, who were the supremacists you refered to in

"Or, mentioned the deliberate attempt by a few 'supremacists' to hijack a peaceful protest."

When I read that my mind recalled a post I saw before the riots from one regular poster who shall remain namless but lets call him(or her) Boaz for simplicity. This was posted on 7th December

"I have recommended they make a CODE which can be phoned to a network of Locals (with brawn) who will phone others, to stream down to the beach if gangs come and to DEFEND IT."
(http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3856#22685)

Do you think that he(or she) was one of the supremacists? If not he(or she) certainly was not promoting a peaceful protest.

I would hope that the individual concerned would show some remorse for those comments in light of what transpired. Hopefully he(or she) will at least learn that you can't promote a violent mob response and be sure the violence will only hurt the guilty.

I seem to remember that the particular poster much admires someone who said something about "blessed are the peace makers" (I wanted to go with the Life Of Brian version there but held off - so sad).

R0bert

Rob...

I think you took my comments much further than their natural meaning.

You would recall that I outlined an Action Plan which was lawful, and that I also quoted the actual legislation on 'Self Defence' to back it up.

There is nothing 'supremacist' about defending yourself. It is the lawful right of any person irrespective of their ethnicity in our society.

If your mother is on Cronulla beach with your Aunties and cousins and you (in your apartment ... u didn't feel like going to the sand that day) get a call on your mobile from one of them that a large gang of people (no matter who) are harrassing and hurting them.. are u telling me you would NOT rush to their defense ? (after calling the police of course)

We are a family... all of us. Defend/Restrain is not only lawful, it is also a responsibility on us as caring people. I didn't suggest in any of my posts that 'defense' is anything other than restraint/apprehension. (hopefully by force of numbers) So, this IS "peacemaking". Showing godless gangs that there is 'something' which differentiates our behavior from theirs. "Vengence is mine says the Lord" yes, but 'justice' is our responsibility in this world, and we hand offenders over to the police to complete that process.

I also ask questions as follows:

WHY---- are cars not being stopped going in and out of Lakemba and searched for weapons ?

WHY---- has Bankstown police station capitulated to gangs by removing the Australian flag ? (wimps !)

WHY---- do we see demonstrations about 'racists' which fail to condemn the gang violence ? (I know the answer to this, opportunistic,parasitic lefties )

WHY---- is an Anglo aussie in PENRITH arrested/charged/convicted/jailed in one day, for carrying a silly "branch" (to defend himself) when car load after car load of gang members freely travel to and from Lakemba with baseball bats and golf clubs are let free ?

WHY---- has my prediction of 'Talk Tough, selectively Act Soft' come totally true in this matter?

Anyway, glad you challenge my points, it helps clarify.

BD, reasonable response. You might consider the impact that calls for physical non police response to "defend" the beach have on the overall likelyhood that things will turn violent. The scenario you suggested for me was also some what more personal than the apparent context of your original post as well.

I'm pretty much in agreement with your questions. There is a part of me that thinks an appropriate response to calls for further restrictions on attire at public beaches would be to open more of them up for nude bathing. Draw a line in the sand on this. It is my understanding that people who don't like bikinis can swim fully covered if they like so any concern about attire is an attempt to control others rather than a restriction on their own freedoms.

On the other hand nudists are limited to certain beaches (none legally in QLD) presumably because some consider it offensive so maybe there is an argument that certain beaches could have a more extensive minimum dress standard to cater for those even more easily offended. Not an approach I like myself. I'm not real fond of having behaviours which don't directly impact on non-participating individuals regulatred by the government.

I use nudists as an example because they represent a group which mainstream society tends to treat in a similar manner to that which you and others are claiming some muslims wish to treat bikini wearers. In Queensland nudism are not legal on any beach (or public swiming pool), police wander off to remote beaches to arrest them etc.

Before complaining to much about how others behave it is worth considering how we behave ourselves.

R0bert

It is perfectly reasonable to object to any group or individual infringing your rights. When that happens, civilised people call the police. If the police don't respond as you wish, then there are avenues of complaint, all the way from your local police station to Federal parliament. It is also reasonable to protest peacefully about your concerns.

It is not, however, ever reasonable to tar every member of a particular group (lebs, gays, women, feminists, christians, muslims, aboriginals, refugees, teenagers or cronulla surfers) with the same brush and blame all of them because a few behave badly. Name me any group of people, indeed, any family, in which no-one ever behaves badly? It is also never reasonable to turn vigilante and take the law into your own hands, no matter what the perceived provocation, in a democratic society like ours. And violence is always the refuge of the thug, and there are plenty of thugs in every ethnic and cultural group.

The tone of sulky, aggrieved Pauline-Hansonesque whining that appears in some of the previous posts (to paraphrase; "its not fair, we aren't the bad guys, they are.") is just plain silly. There are bad deeds and good deeds on both sides, as there are good people and bad people, in fact, there is no "us" and "them", there is only ever us. It is heartening to see sensible members of the community reaching out to one another and presenting an example of the right way to behave, at last, rather than the opposite.

Enaj & R0bert - keep up with the reason. We need every bit we can get at present.

I have been heartened over the weekend by the various peace rallies. Hope and pray that we can learn from all this and work out ways to get along.

Cheers m'dears

Scout, of Sydney's population of about 4 million, approximately 3,900,000 DO get along! Peace protests are great for showing solidarity in opposition to stupid and expensive overseas military ventures, but for stopping drugs and arms trafficking, and violent crime, they do this much: 0

You said, 'Hope and pray that we can learn from all this and work out ways to get along.'
I get along fine with most people - don't you?

Scout, peace protesters hay;
Every Communist: Far Left and Kaiser, Hay and the Useless Idiots conglomeration, Between them all and what they worship, body counts to hundreds and millions of tortured and Murdered soles, and that’s your peace march protesters? Protesting against peace hay?
Well done. Quite a few pathological egos’s gathered in one spot, Psychopathologist’s supermarket. You are so funny.

Exactly, I really love it when people assume no one else gets along except for themselves and those people at the marches etc.

We dont feel the need to march for people to all "get along" thats intrinsic in anyone's logic and we certainly do not need to be told that "racism sux", racism shouldnt apply now seeing as we are "all australians".

Once people step foot in this country and pledge their allegiance to this land mass then they ARE australian too, therefore theoretically then shouldnt be a division, yet there is....... and on the race topic aren't we ALL a race of AUSTRALIANS? Yet its not ok to show our flag in public, the flag so many people have sworn on?

I wonder why... maybe because they didnt mean what they said in the first place and pass that onto their children or in alot of cases even understand it because they dont speak or can be bothered to speak the national language.

We want OUR civil liberties to walk down a street and not get hassled or mugged BY ANYONE IRRESPECTIVE OF ANY GENETIC OR CULTURAL DISTINCTIONS.

Leigh,

The multicultural society we now have was started by Gough Whitlam and Al Grassby neither of whom were part of the Fraser Government.

Gough Whitlam and Al Grassby were part of the Labor government that was in before the Fraser Liberal government. Gough was Prime Minister.

Skidmarx, Robert and BDavid,

Sydney may well have been saved if Robert had spoken against BD’s Cronulla email pre riots, sadly jumping on the bandwagon post riot is fairly useless.

I’m glad I too wrote (pre riots) to CronullaSurf. They need all the support they can get in the face of the racism from the lebs and the left.

Iemma’s seat being that of Lakemba, answers the question of why leb suburbs are being given the easy treatment.

SKIDMARX,

From Lebanon’s finest… “Procreate, educate and detonate” childrearing programs.

"Hizbullah Al-Manar TV’s Children's Claymation Special: Jews Turn Into Apes and Pigs, are Annihilated and Cast Into the Sea"

In its Stories from the Koran series, Al-Manar TV, which is affiliated with the Lebanese terrorist organization Hizbullah, aired an Egyptian claymation children's special by the well-known filmaker Dr. Zeinab Zamzam. [1]
The following are excerpts are from the program, which aired December 7, 2005.
TO VIEW CLIP VISIT http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=964....
http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD105005

Would you let your 3 y-old watch this?

Isn’t it funny, first the PC tells us its just a few extremists in the middle east... Then they concede well yes and a few in local mosques in your western home town... Then after London its only a few locals.

Now after Sydney ahmm yes well it’s also quiet a few gangs of Sydney locals… it gets closer and closer everyday. LOL and they call us racist.

ROB
yes, I fully take the point that ‘non police’ intervention with a goal of restraint and apprehension for police, could and most likely WOULD involve a degree of ‘violence’. Restraining an unwilling offender usually does.
The important issue here though is not whether ‘violence’ is used, because the Police inevitably use it themselves on our behalf. The principle is ‘restrain’ not punish.

Dear ENAJ
I think I’ve finally worked out why there appears to be a continual barrier of understanding between myself (and my ilk) and you.

Your position “We cannot tar ALL of a particular group with the same brush” AGREED...
except....in one circumstance, and that, is

‘Tribal COLLECTIVE behavior’

I think you need to do some reading on this issue. You appear to be projecting onto ‘tribal’ sub cultures an extreme ‘Western Individual/liberal’ outlook which is as accurate as a square peg in a round hole.

We have no argument that there are MANY ‘nice Muslims’ and some ‘bad’ Muslims socially speaking. What you are not recognizing is this. Lets use Christians for an example:

A law is proposed to “Ban Alchohol trading across Australia”,
No matter what the history of this issue do you think that “individual nice Christians” or even ‘MANY’ nice Christians will oppose such a law ? Hardly. There are many better examples of course.
If Parliament was urged to open with a reading from the Quran, would ‘nice Muslims’ oppose this ? again, hardly, but how would Christians and atheists react ?
Are you seeing it yet ? please get back to me.

SCOUT
You are blessedly naive. Did you not see what those ‘peace’ rallies were ‘REALLY’ about ? The same people running that march, are the people who fail to mention YEARS of gang attacks and youths’ trashing streets, yet they SHOUT about ‘white supremacist loony fringe’ on 1 day. See this for ‘balanced’ reporting. http://www.greenleft.org.au/racism5.htm (Last Para)
Why would ATHEIST Socialists ‘stand shoulder to shoulder’ with Allah believing Muslims ?
Does it occur to you that all they want is the support of Arabs for political reasons ?

BOAZ_David.
No, I certainly don't lump Christians (or Buddhists, for that matter) in with all those others I mentioned.
I included them because someone, somewhere, may have issues of racism with Christianity or Buddhism (or any other religion/ideology for that matter - free and open debate about racism, that's all that matters). I don't know of any C&B racism offhand, but then, Christianity and Buddhism doesn't threaten the civilization (flawed as it is) that I love, so I haven't studied them as thoroughly as I have Islam.
I have no issues at all with Christ, in fact I try to follow his code of ethics (except for turning the other cheek) even though I am an atheist. I am tolerant of all races and religions that are willing to live and let live.
I am NOT tolerant of Islam, satanism, fascism, communism and any totalitarian/racist ideology.
Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Jainists etc should be TOTALLY united in the fight against the jihad. Thanx for YOUR contributions to these forums.

samo.
Exactly, you can't just sweep it under the carpet and pretend it's not there. This is the most important issue the world faces at this point in time. As for the solution..... that's a hard one. The first step would be to stop this useless 'Left-Right' divide. We need to unite to fight this. We're all Infidels together against an implacable, bloodcurdling menace.

Pericles.
You remind me of a Far Side cartoon I saw depicting Custer's Cavalrymen saying: "Indians shmindians" or medieval soldiers saying "Mongols shmongols", The Emperors new clothes, and failure to see the 800 pound gorilla in your bedroom, with ludicrous statements like "...conveniently ignoring the mass of Moslems who live perfectly peaceable and blameless existences." More like you conveniently ignoring the mass of alarming FACTS about Islam that one discovers on a daily basis. Please pull your head out of the sand. There are peaceful Muslims here and around the world. However, after 1400 years, Islam has not proven to be peaceful. Far from it!
" the skidmarx of this world, who seem to revel in the perceived drama of it all." I assure you I'm not revelling in
"the perceived drama of it all." I'm VERY concerned. If you can prove me wrong, then let's see what you've got.
Suggesting that I would be a fascist/Oswald Mosley follower in your snide, pathetic remarks, exposes you for the morally-bankrupt, coward that you are. Calling someone a nazi is probably your stock phrase if anyone disagrees with your woefully naive perception of reality. And your 'Move along, folks.... Nothing to see here' attitude paints you as serious contender for the Dhimmi/Useful Idiot of the year award.

Boaz David,
Okay, I am getting back to you.
Racism and tribal behaviour exist, of course. They would qualify, in my mind, at least, as examples of bad human behaviour. And, as I am just human, they have both been part of my own bad behaviour at times. But, as I have pointed out on other threads, just because certain traits are human doesn't mean we should just shrug and put up with them or glorify them. Cruelty, rudeness, exploitation, tantrum throwing, sulking, violence, jealousy, prejudice, selfishness, stupidity and ignorance all exist, but that's what civilisation is about, channelling destructive "tribal" behaviour into more constructive avenues.
But I don't get the rest of your argument. Are you implying that religious believers slavishly follow the tenants of that religion without thought, without conscience, without reason? And that they all agree all the time? History does not support you. Christianity broke away from Judaism, Protestantism broke away from Catholicism, Sunni muslims battle Shi'ite muslims. Religion fights itself just as much as it fights non-believers, more sometimes. It is one of the reasons I am not a fan of religions. I have nothing against faith, you understand, just religion. Because, on second thoughts, perhaps they do promote "tribal" behaviour, exclusion, the "us " and "them" mentality. But just because you think someone is wrong, or you don't approve of their behaviour does not give you the right to descend on them like a baying banshee with hate on your face and lust for blood in your heart. I don't care how bloody human the impulse is, people need to grow up and resist their baser impulses. That's what being a civilised adult is all about.

Hi Enaj
yes.. I cannot disagree with you on the need to uphold law and seek to chanel 'tribal' behavior into more positive things.
I also agree that we must never just shrug our shoulders and give up on trying.

What we are witnessing in Sydney, in my opinion, is a government and police force and Judiciary which are in a 3 way lust triangle.
Lust for power and influence I suggest. The politicians are 'dependant' on the vote (Iemma in particular) of a particular segment of the population which have a distinct religious, cultural and tribal background. So, dependance gives rise to compromise on issues of Law and Order 'go easy on them.. they are misunderstood' kind of thing. This in turn emboldens the ratbag element, which in turn seek to bully and use this soft approach for their own advantage and our disadvantage. Hence the recognition of this and the reaction, in the form of a peaceful protest, hijacked by vocal ratbag elements on the 'white supremacist' side of things, which in turn further radicalizes the ratbag element among the tribalists and pushes the moderate among them towards radicalism because they now feel threatened.

A strict law and order approach free of political intrigue and better social policy which would specifically prevent large numbers of tribalists settling in one place, would have prevented all this. So, I am an advocate of pro-active social settlement policy aimed at avoiding this.

Collective Behavior and Tribalism.

We experience CB here in OLO. Our opinions are re-inforced by supporters, and we tend to polarize.

Religion is a big factor in differentiating one 'tribe' from another.
That tribe will vote, act and relate in ways which 'collectively' benefit them. That was the substance of the rest of my argument.
Of course you get dissenters, but still, majority will follow the interests of the 'tribe' and influence social, immigration, econonomic and foreign policy in their own interests.
Iemma will act in the interests of his political 'tribe' :)

Scout, thanks. Sometimes seems like an episode of "Get Smart" around here. Battling the forces of Kaos.

merideth, maybe we could have stopped the riot if BD had withdrawn the call to arms before the riot. I stand corrected.

In my defence I was focussing my efforts on trying to convince Irfan that the issue should be tackled head on by Muslim/middle eastern leaders. In hindsight my suggestion might have just got them bashed by the thugs as well. I had hoped that if a substantial body of community leaders from the muslim/middle eastern community were at the beach making a stand against the gangs it might have had some impact. I think Irfan had already had a gutfull of the constant Muslim bashing and was not real interested, although I disagree with him on this I can understand it if he is somewhat fed up (just as I understand the frustrations of those who have had to put up with intimidation and abuse from the gangs). Pretending that there is no issue is not OK, neither is bashing innocents or provoking mob physical intervation in such a charged environment. There was almost no chance that civil arrests and the like would ever be anything other than an escalation of the problem.

NSW needs a "Fitsgerald enquiry" equivalent which looks at police failure to act to stop the ongoing problem and which does not exempt the government from scrutiny/findings etc. Then you might get somewhere.

R0bert

David,that Aussie with the branch was arrested because Morris Iemma thought he was going to do some branch stacking for Peter Debnam.

You see,only the Labor Party can branch stack,and also it is illegal for Aussies to defend themseleves from Middle Eastern gangs because Morris might lose his seat.

Tell ya what ,he may keep his seat but judging by the way he has handled this mess,he ain't going to Premier after the next election.

Law and order- stuffed
Health- stuffed
Infrastructure-stuffed
Transport- stuffed
Public administration;too many Public servants-stuffed
Highest taxed state- stuffed
Lowest economic growth-stuffed
Businesses;red tape,OH&S,workers comp,home warranty,cover regulation-all stuffed

Aside from new national parks,has someone a positive word?