I'm glad you agree with me on Redneck. His statements, I have decided, are not even worth a response. As to why I stayed in Townsville so long, it was soley to do with my career, contracts etc.

I don't believe in the death penalty for any crime simply because I believe we are not entitled to administer it. It is completely uncivilised and a sign that we cannot deal with crime in an effective manner.

I don't know any of the friends and family of the victims of Martin Bryant's killing spree but I have been to the site where it happened and it gives me the creeps. I don't know what can be done, but just like Martin Bryant didn't have the right to take life, neither do any of us. Right now the blood is on Bryant's hands but if we were to support the legal execution of men like him then we would all have it on our hands, rightly or wrongly.

I'd probably want to kill anyone who harmed any member of my family but I would hope to find it within my humanity to stop myself if such a terrible thing should ever occur. Of course I'd never forgive them and of course I'd never forget - I would have a deep hatred in my guts for the rest of my life. But to take their life in return would make me just as bad as them and as time passed I would come to the realisation that I, too was a murderer.

Tubley

Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur killings are not a good example when it comes to the death penalty. Mainly because it is such an extreme case.

The death peanlty would not have been a deterent to Bryant, my understanding is that he didn't expect to come out of it alive anyway.

He was out for notoriety, deliberately killing as many people as possible to break the prevous record for a single shooter massacre, which was set by Dr Baruch Goldstein when he killed 29 worshippers at the Cave of the Patriachs in Hebron in 1994.

Bryant has an IQ of 66, so he would have been pushing his intellectual ability to think through what he was doing to a logical conclusion. Added to that is the question as to whether society should be executing those of inferior intellect or psychiatric illness.

If we are to debate the death penalty the Snowtown killings would probably be a better example, or perhaps Ivan Milat.

In the case of Martin Bryant we have to ask what sort of society let someone of low intelligence to obtain the weaponry that he used in the shootings in the first place, or didn't monitor his daily activities in a way that woudl have detected his intentions earlier.

That's a bit harsh about Townsville, I'm sure there are some nice people who live there.

The death penalty thing, oh god can I really be bothered? Check out the countries that have the death penalty. USA, the Middle East, parts of Asia etc. Crime free paradises? Didn't think so. And Woodyblues, our aversion to the death penalty is due to some misplaced denial of the human capacity for brutality and evil? I don't think so, more likely an awareness of where that side of human nature can take us when given free reign. Is killing wrong, or isn't it? Apparently not - but who decides? The courts? The government? Do you really trust them that much?

Anyway, whatever. I don't see any likelihood of anyones views changing as a result of these forums, but you people have certainly opened my eyes. I used to dismiss the kind of bleating you get from the more left wing sections of the media about racism and hatred in Australia, but now I'm not so sure. So keep up the good work Redders et al, you will have me turning into a fully fledged political activist before you know it!

Shonga,
me thinks you just can not except that other folks have another oppionion to yours. Do you not see what is going on in socity today, just look at the fighting in Sydney over the past two nights. There is no back up for the law makers thus there is no fear of the punishment issued out. The system needs somthing to shock it back to life and CP is just what is needed. As montypython said in the Life of Bryan. Nail em up I say. Crucifiction is too good for some of them. So take your soap box and look at other forums to preach. You seem to be a bit like the JW'S my way is right and I must convert you. Well not this black duck. Fly with the ducks get shot with the ducks.

First, would Barry please tell me what his abbreviation "JWs" means? I would not want to misinterpret him before saying anything.

Second, I too have considered ideas similar to that advanced by ThruTheHaze - "the death penalty for those who commit premediated murder where there is NO doubt as to guilt - eg the Cobby killers, Martin Bryant".

I would certainly disagree with executing Bryant - as noted by others, he is of subnormal intelligence to a degree which rendered him "incapable of managing his affairs and property", according to the court psychiatrist's report. I do not believe we can be justified in killing someone so intellectually handicapped. Of course, he must never be released.

I had in mind true monsters - not handicapped, not insane - who commit the most appalling homicides. Execution would essentially be a measure of social self-defence, not punishment and certainly not deterrence, which is a discredited idea in the death penalty debate. And like ThruTheHaze I would want a higher standard of proof than "beyond reasonable doubt". That's good enough to imprison, but not to kill. A miscarriage of justice would result in a state-sanctioned murder. So the conviction would need to be "beyond all doubt", based on overwhelming, credible and direct (not just circumstantial) evidence. There must be no room for error when a life is at stake. But it should be possible to construct legal rules which achieve this end.

My problem arose when I tried to define "monsters". Hitler, Saddam, Mao, Stalin, Suharto, Pinochet, Milosevic were certainly such, but their like will not come before our courts. To give strict legal form to an essentially emotional concept - form precise enough, remember, to distinguish reliably between those we kill and those we imprison - is necessary before this idea can be further considered.

JW, I can only assume means Jehova's Witnesses. I have known a family of lovely JWs who have never forced a single thing down my throat ever.

I urge everyone on this site to pay no attention to Barry as he has nothing worthwhile to contribute.

And of course Shonga is going to challenge your opinion, people aren't on this forum to agree with each other.

I believe that executing people is wrong and I have faith that our civilised nation will eventually find intelligent solutions to crime that does not involve capital punishment.