This is now the fourth anti capitol punishment article published on this site. The owners of this site apparently will not tolerate a contervailing article.

This attitude is indicative of the persistent left wing media bias in this country. This bias, which is contrary to the wishes of the majority, is indicative of why news services such as Murdock's Fox news has become so popular in the US. Quite frankly, we the majority are just sick and tired of being force fed trendy views by journalists who's pet agendas we vehemently oppose.

Redneck get a life, the majority of us don't want to kill anyone, and don't want the State to do it for us either. When I saw 1 comment I knew it would be you, do you have a hatred of humanity, or is it all that soldier b#$%&hit they pushed into your head in the Army. When the Army does peacekeeping work, it is supposed by the Australian public that soldiers have compassion for the people they are protecting, we don't believe the undercurrents that are sometimes reported of soldiers raping and abusing people, we believe that our military have compassion for those people, although the way you carry on, I am begining to question my beliefs in the military. If you continue with this hatred of mankind {which I might add is derogatory to military tradition} authorities may be watching this forum for other matters and stumble upon your rantings and ravings, and take some action. You sir are paranoid, and need help, you may have seen some terrible things in your time as a soldier, but that does not give you the right to want humanity to die, please seek psycological help, via Vetrans Affairs.

Redneck

Your comments, in a forum responding to my article which was one of those four anti Death Penalty articles, that I was a trendy leftie bought great peels of laughter and gaffaws from my closest kin. It bought much consternation among many of my and their leftie friends. If I'm treny leftie then what does that make them raving 'red feds' was my response and question to them.

It is common knowledge I am liberal minded, was once a member of the Liberal Party, and many regard many of my views (Wrongly in my opinion)as just as rightwing as yours.

God (If she exists) help both of us.

There is no time in history were we as a liberal democracy have not been involved in some action or conflict that has resulted in the taking of life. We do not reject the death penalty for noble reasons of respect for the sanctity of life, we do it because none of us have the intestinal fortitude to throw the switch! We hid behind honourable platitudes of respect for ‘precious life’ when we are just too gutless to allow our true natures rise up and rid our society of those that don’t deserve to be in it. The death penalty should exist to cleanse our society of the scum like Nguyen and his ilk. As to deterrents or lack there of through capital punishment, I can only take Lamont’s word for it. I just think of the wasted money on these criminals. Why pay the $50K-$80K?? per year to keep a scumbag like him feed and clothed.

The arguments outlined by Lamont are predicated on emotional cop-outs that are usually promulgated by bleeding heart intellectuals that can’t bring themselves to face up to their true humanity. Humanity commits acts of wondrous generosity of mind, body and spirit and equally acts of great oppression, brutality and cruelty, but all of these are to be human. To say that killing another person is inhuman is to misunderstand what humanity means. If you are going to make your arguments against the death penalty you should not make it base on some fictitious ideology. Make it about the emotional horrors brought about by your own over active imagination. Be honest about your revoltions when you imagine the conviction, the march to the gallows, the last thoughts as the noose is tightened, the thud of the trap door, the sickening crack of the vertebral column, the dripping sounds of urine pooling under the lifeless body and the wailing of a distraught mother.

The death penalty is simple and absolute. We should use it sparingly and with great care but we should use it for those that commit heinous crimes against society knowingly and with premeditation.

It is often claimed but rarely demonstated that capital punishment has no deterrent effect. The claim that "States in the US where the death penalty is available also have the highest homicide rates" could just as easily be turned around to say that states with high homicide rates feel the need to have a greater deterent. Despite the claim in this article that there is no evidence of a deterrent effect, plenty in fact exists. For a start you could check this article - http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=691447 - in which it is suggested that each execution saves innocent lives. I'd have to say that the evidence is not compelling either way but the oft made claim that there is no evidence simply fails to address the entire issue.

Equally, claiming that a death penalty doesn't deter crimes of passion misses the point because these aren't the crimes that are targeted. It is rare in places like the US that a crime of passion will attract a death sentence. It is reserved for premediated homicide or for crimes where the murderer had previously decided that murder was an option whilst committing the crime - eg kidnap and armed robbery.

For my part, I'd favour a system that allows for the death penalty for those who commit premediated murder where there is NO doubt as to guilt - eg the Cobby killers, Martin Bryant.

Woodyblues, if you're concerned about the money wasted in keeping offenders alive take another look. In the US where CP is still in use the costs involved in prosecuting capital crimes involving CP are actually higher than the costs of life incarceration.

Sections of the following link have ample cost analysis for your edification.
http://dpa.state.ky.us/library/advocate/jan00/dppotter.html
Of course, being interested solely in cost you may ignore the rest of the article.

Not that wikipedia is the be all and end all but this 'food for thought' can be found elsewhere too:

"The hanging produced much protest in Australia. At the time of Ryan's execution the Australian Broadcasting Corporation suspended broadcasts of Radio for two minutes in protest. There was doubt about Ryan's guilt in Hodson's death, and shock to find that the death penalty would still be carried out. It is often claimed that the execution was used by then Premier of Victoria Henry Bolte (Liberal Party of Australia) for political gain. At the next State Election, Bolte's govenment was returned to power, with an increased majority, but no more death sentences were carried out." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Ryan)

Right or wrong, the enforcement of the law and its consequent punishments are tools of the governments and police force of the day - not just society. Have our governments and police forces been proven to be incorruptible? Infallible? Some governments/police forces of our neighbouring nations are widely known to have problems with corruption .

Regardless of the above, my personal belief is that the death penalty will always be wrong.

lil_ol_me

One matter not so far mentioned is the potential effect of the death penalty on jury verdicts. I know that if I was on a jury in a trial potentially involving the death penalty I would either, whether consciously or subconsciously, require an even higher standard of proof than 'beyond reasonable doubt' in my own personal deliberations. I would probably try to excluse ALL possible doubt, and not just "reasonable doubt".

If I was given the option of verdicts between murder and manslaughter, and sometimes the difference can be wafer thin, I would probably go for manslaughter, knowing that the accused would still spend a long time in prison rather than me being responsible for his death.

This of course would not deliver justice in a full sense, in terms of a finding of guilt and long imprisonment.

The death penalty deters repeat offenders, of which more than 70% make up jail populations in the form of murder and violent crimes. In the past the death penalty didn't deter, but if you use a weapon to murder someone in the act of a crime, then that should be your lot. Our society has become weak in many ways and we spend out time pitying the perpetrator rather than the victims.

There are many that deserve to die, because those that died by their hand didn't deserve to die. Take the bloke who used a speargun to kill his wife and kid, or those who repeat rapes, kills, maims or molests children, put them down. You do it to animals who have never hurt anyone.

A civilised society can handle the death sentence, as can be seen by the most recent polls which say that a majority of Aussies support the death penanlty for certain crimes.

Someone that has killed someone whilst robbing them or breaking into their home, lose their right to life. If you don't use the ultimate deterement, then our jails will just get bigger and bigger as more and more flout the law knowing they can get away with it.

Don't worry about reserve redneck, he is typical of the gonna's who never did.

What Real that messed up Earth?.

Science is a grate thing it has helped thousand of normal thinkers solve problems the things we cannot see or think about get us in trouble.
I believe that a simple thing of changing temperature is
the answer to life and our weather when Rocks metors, penetrate the Magnetic and Ozone on the Dark side that rite behind them is Static Cold that inters the hole that they
cut threw the layers and when the sun radiant heat hit the
tube streaks they explode into all directions and make cross currents that create Low's and High's in the weather
conditions that upper clouds move opposite to the lower clouds and when they collide we get hurricanes,tornados that create the heat exchanger between 12000ft and sea level.

Hamlet, your observation is correct. Examine the Canadian experiance and you will find that since the abolition of CP in the mid seventies the conviction rate for capital crimes has since doubled.
http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php

Redneck, you are from Townsville, right? The redneck capital of North Queensland. I lived there for 8 years. I used to love sitting on the beautiful Strand, watching the dull, flat, beach with imported sand infested with chemical waste, watching snot-nosed brats flying past on their skateboards and dogs dropping turds all over the path. I loved the peaceful sound of moron, AJ hoons driving past with bass music thumping so loud that everyone within a kilometre radius could hear it; one hand fully extended on the steering wheel, the other I don't want to know where, and their backwards American baseball caps hovering 5 centimetres above their stupid, shaven heads. Oh, and I hate how everyone goes on about that damn Cowboys rugby team. Why is it that everyone gets so excited over a bunch of ugly men ramming into each other and fighting over a ball? There is more to life! Do you know that the male population of Townsville outnumbers the females 5 to 1? Even I was starting to feel a bit queer by the end of it - not a good thing to be in a town full of 'redneck' homophobes. My point in all of this is that maybe your attitude has a lot to do with the uncultured, ignorant, hillbilly haven you live in. Open your eyes you brainwashed fool, Tubs.
PS, it's 'capital' punishment - military personnel (school failures) are not known for their literacy skills.

tubley, You have summed things up beautifully, redneck and those of his ilk appear to be a less well bred version of average society, with these extreme right wing views, one wonders why they don't choose to like in the usa where everything they want is laid on for them, violence, murder, death penalty, all the great things in life, they are so lunatic right that even some Liberals have had to wear their scorn, see above. I have no idea whether or not redneck, and his mad mates live in Townsville, NQ, or not, but wherever they live, God help their community, as for being uneducated, one can only assume so, by their comments.

Even the uneducated have a right to express their views, and to be heard.

It doesn't mean however that we are compelled to agree with those views.

And lay off the military! I know a number of ex-service personel who would never want to see capital punishment in Australia. I also know a number of ex military personel who are well read and educated.

It is my experience that those who have actually had to fight, or train to fight, mostly want a free and liberal civil society.

Your point on education was well received, Hamlet. However I don't agree with your views on fighting. You mention 'fighting' and being 'trained to fight' but there are other ways to do fight.

Look at doctors and nurses battling against the effects of cancer. Look at teachers in oversized classrooms battling against a failing education system. Look at the struggling 'Jo-Blo' scraping to find a few bucks to sponsor some poor bugger in the third world who is starving to death (or those who are struggling to feed even their own family).

And look at the masses of good hearted people trying to find civilised alternatives to capital punishment, and those using intelligent diplomacy instead of military might to establish peace among nations. This is indeed a fight. In that sense the meaning of fighting becomes much broader.

Redneck writes: "This is now the fourth anti capitol punishment article published on this site. The owners of this site apparently will not tolerate a contervailing article."

How do you know the site won't tolerate the other side of the argument? Have you written and submitted a pro-capital punishment article? Are you going to?

Tubley, Tubley, Tubley, while I agree with your sentiments regarding Redneck, give Townsville a fair crack of the whip! Crikey, how could you have stayed in a place that you despise so much for eight years?? The place is alright mate! No less so than Mackay, Cairns, Rocky, Maryborough or Bundy or the smaller towns in between. Yes I hate the hoons and the Cowboys, but it isn’t any worse than many other towns in that regard. And it is not a town full of redneck homophobes, daaarling.

As for capital punishment, I concur with Woodyblues; “The death penalty is simple and absolute. We should use it sparingly and with great care but we should use it for those that commit heinous crimes against society knowingly and with premeditation” and ThruTheHaze; “For my part, I'd favour a system that allows for the death penalty for those who commit premeditated murder where there is NO doubt as to guilt - eg the Cobby killers, Martin Bryant”.

There should be no such thing as a mandatory death penalty.

No, I am not gay… nor a homophobe.

Ludwig, If you live in Queensland, please contact Community Mental Health, this is a free service provided to you, barry and redneck at no charge, they want to help you become a civilised human being.

I'm glad you agree with me on Redneck. His statements, I have decided, are not even worth a response. As to why I stayed in Townsville so long, it was soley to do with my career, contracts etc.

I don't believe in the death penalty for any crime simply because I believe we are not entitled to administer it. It is completely uncivilised and a sign that we cannot deal with crime in an effective manner.

I don't know any of the friends and family of the victims of Martin Bryant's killing spree but I have been to the site where it happened and it gives me the creeps. I don't know what can be done, but just like Martin Bryant didn't have the right to take life, neither do any of us. Right now the blood is on Bryant's hands but if we were to support the legal execution of men like him then we would all have it on our hands, rightly or wrongly.

I'd probably want to kill anyone who harmed any member of my family but I would hope to find it within my humanity to stop myself if such a terrible thing should ever occur. Of course I'd never forgive them and of course I'd never forget - I would have a deep hatred in my guts for the rest of my life. But to take their life in return would make me just as bad as them and as time passed I would come to the realisation that I, too was a murderer.

Tubley

Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur killings are not a good example when it comes to the death penalty. Mainly because it is such an extreme case.

The death peanlty would not have been a deterent to Bryant, my understanding is that he didn't expect to come out of it alive anyway.

He was out for notoriety, deliberately killing as many people as possible to break the prevous record for a single shooter massacre, which was set by Dr Baruch Goldstein when he killed 29 worshippers at the Cave of the Patriachs in Hebron in 1994.

Bryant has an IQ of 66, so he would have been pushing his intellectual ability to think through what he was doing to a logical conclusion. Added to that is the question as to whether society should be executing those of inferior intellect or psychiatric illness.

If we are to debate the death penalty the Snowtown killings would probably be a better example, or perhaps Ivan Milat.

In the case of Martin Bryant we have to ask what sort of society let someone of low intelligence to obtain the weaponry that he used in the shootings in the first place, or didn't monitor his daily activities in a way that woudl have detected his intentions earlier.

That's a bit harsh about Townsville, I'm sure there are some nice people who live there.

The death penalty thing, oh god can I really be bothered? Check out the countries that have the death penalty. USA, the Middle East, parts of Asia etc. Crime free paradises? Didn't think so. And Woodyblues, our aversion to the death penalty is due to some misplaced denial of the human capacity for brutality and evil? I don't think so, more likely an awareness of where that side of human nature can take us when given free reign. Is killing wrong, or isn't it? Apparently not - but who decides? The courts? The government? Do you really trust them that much?

Anyway, whatever. I don't see any likelihood of anyones views changing as a result of these forums, but you people have certainly opened my eyes. I used to dismiss the kind of bleating you get from the more left wing sections of the media about racism and hatred in Australia, but now I'm not so sure. So keep up the good work Redders et al, you will have me turning into a fully fledged political activist before you know it!

Shonga,
me thinks you just can not except that other folks have another oppionion to yours. Do you not see what is going on in socity today, just look at the fighting in Sydney over the past two nights. There is no back up for the law makers thus there is no fear of the punishment issued out. The system needs somthing to shock it back to life and CP is just what is needed. As montypython said in the Life of Bryan. Nail em up I say. Crucifiction is too good for some of them. So take your soap box and look at other forums to preach. You seem to be a bit like the JW'S my way is right and I must convert you. Well not this black duck. Fly with the ducks get shot with the ducks.

First, would Barry please tell me what his abbreviation "JWs" means? I would not want to misinterpret him before saying anything.

Second, I too have considered ideas similar to that advanced by ThruTheHaze - "the death penalty for those who commit premediated murder where there is NO doubt as to guilt - eg the Cobby killers, Martin Bryant".

I would certainly disagree with executing Bryant - as noted by others, he is of subnormal intelligence to a degree which rendered him "incapable of managing his affairs and property", according to the court psychiatrist's report. I do not believe we can be justified in killing someone so intellectually handicapped. Of course, he must never be released.

I had in mind true monsters - not handicapped, not insane - who commit the most appalling homicides. Execution would essentially be a measure of social self-defence, not punishment and certainly not deterrence, which is a discredited idea in the death penalty debate. And like ThruTheHaze I would want a higher standard of proof than "beyond reasonable doubt". That's good enough to imprison, but not to kill. A miscarriage of justice would result in a state-sanctioned murder. So the conviction would need to be "beyond all doubt", based on overwhelming, credible and direct (not just circumstantial) evidence. There must be no room for error when a life is at stake. But it should be possible to construct legal rules which achieve this end.

My problem arose when I tried to define "monsters". Hitler, Saddam, Mao, Stalin, Suharto, Pinochet, Milosevic were certainly such, but their like will not come before our courts. To give strict legal form to an essentially emotional concept - form precise enough, remember, to distinguish reliably between those we kill and those we imprison - is necessary before this idea can be further considered.

JW, I can only assume means Jehova's Witnesses. I have known a family of lovely JWs who have never forced a single thing down my throat ever.

I urge everyone on this site to pay no attention to Barry as he has nothing worthwhile to contribute.

And of course Shonga is going to challenge your opinion, people aren't on this forum to agree with each other.

I believe that executing people is wrong and I have faith that our civilised nation will eventually find intelligent solutions to crime that does not involve capital punishment.

I think jw's may mean jesus w**nkers. You should be careful when refering to martin bryant, unless you understand how those invovled and live in the area feel. You will find it hard to find anyone involved who knows bryant or lives on the Tasman peninsula, that would not be the first to push the button to rid the place of him. Most PC have never been involved in any form of violent stress, yet think they are superior to others in their thinking and intelect when it comes to determining the punishment for insidious crimes.

Talk to those still traumatised after almost 10 years as to how their lives have been changed, whilst bryant sits in comfort in jail. As a veteran, I abhore violence, having seen enough on active service. But I know of very few vets that don't support the putting down of the morons that take life for pleasure, economic gain or religious persuasion. If you take their life, they won't repeat. Locking someone up for life does nothing to deter, it only gives them the opportunity to live out their lives in safety and reasonable comfort. Whilst the victims spend the rest of their lives in fear.

Unless you have been involved in violent death close up, you have no understanding of its long term effects. When the perpetrator dies, it is a release for the victim. As long as the criminal is alive, they always fear the chance of release and retribution for locking them up. Think how you would feel knowing that sometime this moron may be released to hunt you down.

Shonga (or showld that be Shonky, hwa hwa hwa), gee my bwane herts. Must be coz I’m a qeeenslayander, heh.

Who would want be become a sivillized human being anyway? I live sumwhere in norf or central qeeensland so why wowld I even think of becumming sivliyized.

Tubley, I don’t believe that there is an innate connection between civilization (civility) and the lack of a death penalty. I think that a highly civilized society can have a death penalty… if it has faith in its legal system and if it applies only to the most blatant of heinous crimes.

The big test of our maturity as a society is not the degree of civilisation but the acceptance of sustainability as mandatory. For as long as we continue to live in the most ridiculously unsustainable manner, thus very rapidly bringing on the end of society as we know it, there is something very serious wrong with the notion that we are civilised.

It is interesting to see these mentions of Port Arthur and Martin Bryant appear on the forum on the very day that I visited the place, a quarter of a century since my last visit. Very eerie. The vibes in the place were very strong, from both the penal prison and the mass-murder perspectives. Then to see it appear on the forum….wow. Gives me the creeps

I have heard so many viewpoints from every corner of this dark and sordid debate. I can tell that a great deal of thought has gone into both sides of this argument but I don't know if thought is enough. I sometimes wonder if we are even capable of making such decisions. If there is a God I wonder what she would think. I'm going into hospital tomorrow and won't be checking this forum till early next year. Merry Christmas to all of you.
Tubley Thompson

Shonga “Redneck get a life, the majority of us don't want to kill anyone, and don't want the State to do it for us either.”

As is too often the case, you, Shonga are WRONG.

The vast majority of ordinary voting Australians would see no problems with the death penalty being reintroduced and many would offer the names various criminals for the right of “first to fry” (or whatever method is deemed appropriate).

I refer you to

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/ti03.pdf

I agree with redneck. I would further, support the extension to drug related crimes, wherein, second drug offence, the criminal by hiw recidivist act, obviously has no intention to rehabilitate, therefore should forfeit the right to participate in society for all time – and death being the best expedient for such heinous scumbags.

Doubtless I will now be vilifed by the limp-wristed pansy patrol.

However, being a person of value and scruple, such attempts to scare, with view to silence me, will fall, as water does

- off this little black ducks back.

Oh please let me just be free. Free of the crap dribblers in this world.
SHONGA as usual your touchie feelie life has left you so narrow minded. The military in our country do what they are told and as much as it hurts to say this would give there lives to protect folks like you. How sad is that, good men dieing for trash like you. Go back to your university free lovin and drug parties and leave the decision making to grown ups.
KEITH is god realy a female. Well we are screwed now.
TUBLEY you are just a dead set fool. Thats it nothing else.
The death penality should be used but it is the power of the media which control public opion, look at the war in Vietnam. The Vision of war got to the public through the media and opinion was swayed. It is happening in the war against terrosium and if all you do gooders get your way the crims, terrists, reffos, and any of the other free loaders who want to distroy the Australian Life, would be welcome.
Well get stuffed.

A genuine capital punishment system is an effective crime deterrent, always has been & always will be. No point in looking at the American experience, because they don't have a genuine CP system. As Levitt points out in Freakonomics, of the tiny proportion of murderers who actually end up on death row, only 2% of that group are executed each year.

Better to look at any society that has a track record of no messing about. And surprise, it works wonderfully. It may be brutal, but that's another question. Don't be sprouting the nonsense that it doesn't deter because history everywhere shows that it does.

China had a growing drug problem a few years back. Their solution? They promptly shot 6000 or so known drug dealers. Now, no more drug problem.

China's (Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Iran, pre-1788 Aboriginal customary law - do I need to go on? ? ?) crime rate is a lot lower than the western world. China also has 68 different offences that carry CP. More than half are for non-violent offences such as tax evasion, drug smuggling. If the state says, do that and we will put you behnd bars for 13 (16, 20) years (that doesn't focus on your mind), versus, we will blow your brains out/ cut your head off/ terminate forever your existence...I mean come on, it's obvious.