Do you blame us Irfan? Not all moslems are terrorists BUT ALL terrorists appear to be moslem. As we read moslems hold no allegiance to Australia only to islam. If the majority are told by their hard-line leaders to commit an outrage that is what they will do - in our eyes.Many of your leaders preach murder and hatred towards non-moslems. Also, I forget the term used, but any moslem can lie to a supposed infidel or non-moslem. Moslem leaders or countries can use this also to abrogate any previously signed agreement. Hard to believe any moslem at all with that teaching in their heads. Strange that we are called infidels or un-believers by you and yours when by a Bible definition moslems are pagans or heathens. We do not harbour hatred towards you or to your odd religion but, according to your koran, we are pigs and should be destroyed. What are you and your friends doing to keep terrorism from Australia Irfan?? numbat

Actually, numbat, the undisputed leaders in suicide terrorism are the Tamil Tigers, who are Marxist-Leninist in orientation and predominantly Hindu in background. We hear comparatively little of their activities because, frankly, they're only killing their own kind, and are therefore of little interest to our media.

Well said folks. That is the true Aussie spirit.
A person who learns how to hate unlearns how to love.
A religion that teaches how to hate to the extent that it learns how to terrorise has unlearned its own message and betrayed its own followers.
An Australian who teaches hatred towards his fellows is not an Australian.
A human who learns how to terrorise is not humane.
Anyone who terrorises a citizen, a friend, a nation, a religion has been defeated already - by their own hatred.

Rancitas, you made a fatal blunder in your thoughts :)

You projected 'hate' when you should have projected "responsible social policy" and if you don't believe me, maybe you would accept the view of Justice Sir Harry Gibbs (deceased). or.. perhaps plain common sense tells you "If the communist manifesto declares violent overthrow of the bourgois', then vetting immigrants for 'communist' views and rejecting them accordingly is a wise approach to national security.
You don't need emotion, you just need facts and a brain which has not been conditioned by pc trendy social 'think'ers (I use that term very loosely).

I would not advocate sending Muslims born in Australia anywhere else, but I would urge a much stricter approach to selective immigration.

It is a statistical axiom and undeniable truth, that the larger the muslim community, the greater numbers of the 'radical jihadist' there will be, as also the 'mean' of the average bloke or woman and at the other end, the absolute gentle wouldn't hurt a fly types like Irfan :)

Irfan, I'm just picking up on flaws in reasoning and weak argument, no offense.

I'm absolutely sure that the residents of Hamtramck in Michigan who are now to be BLASTED (caps deliberate for effect) RELENTLESSLY 5 TIMES A DAY 365days/year sick or healthy....BY "ALLAHU AKBAR.. MOHAMMED IS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH, are outraged.

but the truly amazing thing is this:

A Muslim physician walked out of the hearing shaking his head and said, "I never knew they hated us so much." Another Muslim, Gabriel Alaziz, said he was "blown away by the level of intolerance I see here.

Can anyone believe this reasoning ? Here it is in point form.

1/ I annoy and irritate and bash the ears of people not my faith
2/ They dissapprove
3/ Therefore,.... they HATE us and further, they are INTOLERANT !

I'm not against silencing Church bells also for the record if they annoy people. No bells in the Bible :)

Irfan, please write to the mayor and express your disgust at this social and moral outrage.

tjankowski@hamtramckcity.com

Well said Irfan,

The only quibble I have with your article is this statement: "Some people will say anything to show hatred towards the world's 1.2 billion Muslims. Their hate is exactly what the terrorists want. They want you to victimise and blame me. Why? Because terrorists hope I will fall into their arms."

Every thing you've said inclines me to say, Irfan is genuine in his expression of abhorrence to the Islamic extremist. More power to Irfan!

However. don't jump so quickly to ascribe hate to those of us who are querying what the Muslim community is doing to stomp on these extremists like there is some sort of moral equivalence between us and them. The extremists say horrible things about those of us who inhabit dar al harb and who don't want to become dar al Islam. Not only that, they kill indiscriminantly and not only in the West, but in Nigeria, Indonesia, Sudan, places where the West has minimal influence but Christians and people of other faiths exist in minority proportions. Now that's real hatred, and only people like Irfan within the Islamic community can change that and unless they do, those of us who object to the Islamicist schemes will only become more vocal.

So I don't blame Irfan for the terrorists, I just want there to be a whole lot more Irfans.

We are not in a court of Law, Irfan, we are the public and we judge Muslims as a group on how they behave. Muslims in Western society behave very badly. Muslim areas of Sydney are noted for their high rates of welfare dependency and serious firearm crime. 55% of the handgun murders in the entire state of NSW occur in just two notorious ethnic ghettoes. Here in Sydney, we had the gang rapes of 70 Australian girls at the time of the Sydney Olympics and those gang rapes are continuing. The propensity for Muslim men to rape western women is becoming a phenomenon all over the western world. It happened in France (where it was called “tournantes”), in Sweden, Norway, Holland and Denmark.

If your religion conditions it’s young men to think that if a woman gets raped, it is all her own fault. And if it tells them that men have a God given right to punish women, and that western women are all sluts. That is conducive to forming an attitude among Muslim men that rape is acceptable. No amount of claiming by Muslims that Islam does not approve of rape, will alter the fact that tacitly, Islam does approve of rape.

If your religion preaches to young men that Muslims are one thing, and everybody else on the planet is something else. And, if it teaches them that dying for Islam is a noble thing with great rewards in paradise, and if it then claims that the Americans and other westerners are attacking Islam, then that is conducive to forming attitudes approving of terrorism. No amount of claiming that Islam denounces terrorism will alter the fact that tacitly, your religion promotes terrorism.

Until you Muslims change your religion to one that does not tacitly threaten your western hosts, then you will always be perceived with suspicion and great mistrust. If you can not change your reiigion, then adios, amigo. Head back to some Muslim cesspit where the economy is a joke, personal freedoms are non existent and they all think like you do.

So redneck, suppose some Catholics or Prodestants were to gang rape some young women. Would you expect them to and all their 'kind' to ship off back to where they came from?

Or perhaps you would argue that in such cases, religion was not an influence? In other words, if muslims gang rape women it because they subscribe to the Koran and identify as Islamic, but when Christians gang rape women it's got nothing to do their subscription to the Bible or their Christian faith.

If religion doesn't cause gang rape (and I don't believe it does) then I hypothesize it has something to do with tribal mentality emerging in communities of the marginlised and disposessed, and guess what, that's the fault of Australian 'Westernised' society

Red.
Jesus did clearly teach an 'us/them'. Those who know Him and turn from sin, believe in the gospel are forgiven and become Gods adopted children. Those who don't are on the outside of God's grace.

The difference is that Jesus refers to 'the lost' as sheep for whom a good shepherd will search and look until he finds them. He will rejoice with all his friends when it is brought back, he continually says "The son of man will be killed, (for you)" and he steadfastly continued on to the place he knew where crucifixion awaited.

He told us to love our enemies, not fight them.

He told us that to even lust after woman is tantamount to adultery,

He exposed the hypocricy of the Scribes, Pharisees and Lawyers. But he restrained Peter from slicing and dicing any more ears of the cops who came to arrest Him.

In summary, there is a universe of difference in the 'mood' and tone of Christ, His words and life, which is relfected in the lives of those who truly know Him, (as opposed to those who use His name for material or socio political gain)

Such was not the case with Mohammed, who had many fights, raids, wars and killings. He stood by while his soldiers enjoyed 'coitus interuptus' with newly captive girls, without comdemning them. The old testament is rough in spots, but at least captives were given a time of grieving before they could be approached with marraige in mind.

Irfan I appreciate your moderate tone (though you say we 'hate' you :) which we don't. But we don't appreciate the decline of our social fabric perpetrated by radicals. You do well to condemn them.

You also appear to be very resilient :) it must not be easy enduring the various criticisms we make on the foundation of your own faith.
Remember "Pain b4 Gain"

Its funny, but when I have my Muslim friends over to my house for dinner, they don’t turn up in traditional Arab garb (maybe it’s the deceptive behaviour that they display towards infidels?). After they leave, I generally don’t feel the need to check my house for concealed bombs and assorted weaponry. Furthermore, they’ve never raped my wife and they’ve never tried to convert me. You may not even realize that they were Muslim unless you asked.....Deception again? Or ignorance and prejudice by some of the other posters in this forum?

I’d certainly rather spend time with them than someone who was trying to force feed me an extremist form of Christian flavoured hatred...

Keep up the good work Irfan.

Also, BOAS_David – get a grip. Do you really think that we care about a local government planning issue in Michigan USA? I don’t see the relevance to this post. Sydney has more than enough planning issues of its own (it’s just they don’t involve Muslims!)

On a recent Lateline programme an American commentator gave the real reason for the shocking human relations now existing between Christianity and Islam. He pointed out that in many ways religion has very little to do with it. He did not mention the term “blowback” but the term itself was originated by the CIA who warned that their tactics against Middle East nations, and certain Third World countries could cause international friction in the future.

The above would not surprise anyone studying International Relations in our universities. As the US commentator pointed out, most Islamic terrorism has been carried out not by poor or destitute Muslims but by the more intellectual and priveleged. Such was proven in 9/11 as well as the recent London bombings, and of course, every one knows bin Laden is related to the most respected of Saudi-Arabian families.

Many people desperately fed-up with news of Islamic attacks, would say either to close down the Humanities areas of our universities or put the curriculums under surveillance, as was done in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

However, this would not get to the core of the problem because former students who had learnt in the universities about “blowback” and “payback” might also need to be quietened down with a warning they could be penalised.

On the other hand, this could give certain of our more zealous leaders a kind of satisfaction that the mention of a car-boot holding a bomb far bigger than one to fit in a haversack, might keep our public more patriotic and forced to respect those already in power.

As intimated by the American commentator - part of the answer could be for both America and Britain to get out of Middle East territory admitting they’d only been in there since WW1 mostly for oil and strategem. But such thoughts might only be a pipe dream, especially as for years now we have had the well-publicised US promise of a New World Order as well as the Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

Boaz I did not make a fatal blunder in my thoughts. You are. Your snide little comments, baseless assertions and general attitude in these columns suggests a hatred of anything that challenges your opinions. What I was on about has nothing to do what you are on about. So what if I embrace political correctness. What's that got to do with anything. It (PCness) doesn't signify weakness in my view but strength. Being PC, among many other things, to my understanding is not letting external factors that have nothing to do with the argument, such as sexuality, race, class, religion etc be brought into a converstion to disparage anothers ideas. For instance:you said: "...pc trendy social 'think'ers (I use that term very loosely)." That I come across as politically correct has little to do with what I was conveying. Indeed, I think it is more trendy now for people to be politcally incorrect than it is to be respectful of others and their ideas. You seem to take issue with the term "Think". I always try to say "I think" out of respect to others who may have another opinion -that idea you will find in most books on dealing with conflictual people. continued

Boaz continued I'm digressing. You can spend your time underming anti-terrorist articles like Irfan's all you like it doesn't change the fact that people like Irfan engender goodwill which is, I think, a very positive thing. Re: your confusing link between communism and deportation: You said So and So said: "If the communist manifesto declares violent overthrow of the bourgois', then vetting immigrants for 'communist' views and rejecting them accordingly is a wise approach to national security." I disagree because it would be racist. If immigrants or otherwise take violent action against their fellow country men based on learned hatreds then that is wrong - that is very politically incorrect. One characteristic of political correctness is it tries to put humanity before ideology. Thus violent overthrow of an elected government is politcally incorrect. Wealthy people can be real heartless but they are still people. Political incorrectness I would suggest involves a similar thinking patterns to fascism which is, ironically, what violence ultimately engenders.
Old saying: "Just because you live in a zoo you don't have to behave like an animal." You can be as politically incorrect as you like I intend to try and maintain a respectful and positive approach - I don't need to revert to the language equivalant of violence to express myself. Most of your assertions re: Irfan's article, etc are, I think, incorrect.

I pointed out that the ongoing series of race hate rape attacks by Muslim men on Western women had a clear cultural basis in the Muslim religion. Muslim men wish to keep their women totally under control and they use the threat of rape as a means of keeping Muslim women housebound. Under the Muslim culture, if a woman gets raped, it is entirely her own fault, because she must have been doing something or been somewhere without escort, and that invited the attack.

Women in Pakistan who get raped and who go to the police (probably only because they got pregnant) are charged with the crime of “Allowing Oneself To Get Raped”, which (believe it or not) is a crime in Pakistan. Think I am making that up? Punch in “Amnesty International”+”Rape”+”Islam”.

Muslim men believe if a woman gets raped it is her fault. They believe that men have a God given right top punish women. They also believe that Western women are dirty sluts who need to be taught a lesson. That is the reason for the very high incidence of rape by Muslim men in Western societies. Here in Sydney, another four “brothers” of “Pakistani origin” have been sentenced today for gang raping four Australian girls and this is becoming a regular occurrence in Sydney.

Danish authorities claim that 75% of the rapes in Stockholm are committed by Muslim men. If one realises that Muslims are only 5% of the Danish population, and when you remember that more than half of the Muslims must be women and children, that gives an indication of how strong is the Muslim cultural tolerance, even approval, of rape.

The more Muslims we import into this country, the more Australian girls are going to get gang raped.. What is more important, preening ourselves as the paragons of misplaced tolerance? Or, the protection of our own young women?

Ranci.....(struggles to avoid a slight play on the name :).. tas...

Forgive my colorful passion, I try to make points by strong assertions. If you disagree, I welcome the fact, its always a basis for further exploration of the idea.

Ranc, PC as applied by you, in regard to communist sympathizers (or certain religious identities as Redneck pointed out) would be suicidal socially speaking. I mean, people who's lives are 'pre-committed' to your destruction are not the kind of people that any sain society would allow into its midst, (lets stay with the 'Red menace analogy for this ) and I might add, that the Socialist Web sites that I checked out some time back after the School kids protest' thingy, STILL are very clear that there will be a final and violent struggle against the Capitalist Bougois to establish the socialist Utopian dream.

Ranc, you illustrate perfectly the madness of 'universal PCness' and you also show how rediculous it is, very simply put
We put 'humanity' before ideology' ok.. for how long ? Once the 'Dictatorship of the Proletariat' is established you are out of the loop with your PCness :) in other words, you are shipped off to the Gulag.

So, PCness in such a case is self defeating and turns out in the end to be the source of brutal and inhumane treatment of other people.

I urge you to consider the 'eventual' ramifications of such a PC position in regard to immigration. Forget the silly mantra "Racism" :)
in any case, communists are not a 'race'.

You also make a good point "Its more trendy now to be un-PC" exactly :)
it was a TRENNNNND... get it ? ideas come, and go, and it reminds me of the words of Jesus "If a man builds his house on the sand, it will fall when the wind and storm comes and great is the destruction"

We need ideas/values of 'rock' mate, and dare I say it built on 'The Rock" :)

Keep up the good work

In writing this I may sound a moslem hater by some yet I do not hate them, perhaps feel sorry for them.By the same standard I am not blind and deaf to their - moslem - aims. Our country was blind and deaf to Adolf Hitler's aims once to our great cost.
From Omar Bakri Mohammed a moslem cleric - "We don't make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents. Only between moslems and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value, it has no sanctity We will use your democracy to destroy your democracy"
There are others if one has his/her eyes opened. Should a person see a runaway truck heading for them the said person does not hate the killer,so to speak, truck. Yet he would do all he/she could to get out of the way and disable the truck. I feel the same to those radical moslems who hate me, my family,my friends, my country and my standards and to those 'pious' "decent" obedient moslems who will do their bidding. numbat

Irfan, your quote from Paul encourages me :)

Pity more Muslims haven't the same regard for his writings. More more :)

You are totally correct.. and 1 Corinthians 13 is such a beautiful passage.

I could read the first bit as "If I crusade against Islam in on line forums, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal"

Without question I must come across as 'without love' at times. I do speak as a social creature as well as a Christian. Sadly, we can't convey our heart feeling though words as well as we may like. But also, my passion is as much on behalf of those who are victimized by that which I am attacking, and Christ did speak harshly to some classes of people (scribes, pharisees, lawyers etc).

As King Solomon said "For everything, there is a time"

Harsh words are not neccessarily unloving words.

Grace and Peace.

Well, I don't care if it rains or freezes
Long as I have my plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car
I could go a hundred miles an hour
Long as I got the almighty power
Glued up there with my pair of fuzzy dice

Plastic Jesus, plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car
Through all trials and tribulations
We will travel every nation
With my plastic Jesus I'll go far

I don't care if it rains or snowses
Long as I got my plastic Moses
Riding on the dashboard of my car
Through all trials and tribulations
We will travel every nation
Me and plastic Moses will go far

I don't care if it rains or freezes
As long as I've got my plastic Jesus
Glued to the dashboard of my car
You can buy Him phosphorescent
Glows in the dark, He's pink and pleasant
Take Him with you when you're travelling far

I don't care if it's dark or scary
Long as I have magnetic Mary
Ridin' on the dashboard of my car
I feel I'm protected amply
I've got the whole damn holy family
Riding on the dashboard of my car

I don't care what they say, I'm gonna
Keep on prayin' to that pink Madonna
Melted to the dashboard of my car
Goin' ninety, I'm not wary
'Cause I've got my Virgin Mary
Guaranteeing I won't go to Hell

I don't care if it bumps or jostles
Long as I got the twelve apostles
Bolted to the dashboard of my car
Don't I have a pious mess
Such a crowd of holiness
Strung across the dashboard of my car

redneck, are you trying to argue that it is purely the theological teachings of Islam that lead an extreme minority to commit gang rape? How do you explain the vast vast majority of muslim men going about their day without participating in gang rape of young women? Are you trying to argue that gang rape is culturally determined?

It's interesting that you've decided to overlook the Australian history of gang rape by the Anglo-Saxon colonisers of Australia. Why did they gang rape Aboriginal women? Do you explain the gang rape by our Anglo Saxon colonisers (who were predominantly Christian) the same way you explain gang rapes by the Arab-Australians (who are predominantly Muslim?) as a product of their culture or religion? Let's not forget either the equally horrendous acts of violence against women in White Western communities by White Western men. So much for protecting your Australian women (a belief you so obviously subsribe to) against the non-White [and non Christian] other.

I suggest you examine how patriachy operates within different cultures before you make sweeping generalisations about Islam on the basis of the conduct by a compartively tiny percentage of muslim people.

...and bloody hell, hasn't the Christian vs. Muslim world view reared its ugly head.

Strayan. I am succesfully arguing that Muslim culture, which is based upon the theological teachings of Islam, is entirely responsible for the very high incidence of race hate rape attacks upon Australian girls by Muslim men. And, that this hatred of western women is so ingrained in Muslim culture, that this is the reason why this behaviour has become a phenomenon in every Western country that was stupid enough to allow Muslims to immigrate into their peaceful societies.

You have made an allegation that “Anglo Saxon” men “gang raped” aboriginal women. If such gang rapes did occur, they would be against Anglo Saxon law, and anyone found guilty of such an offence would have been severely punished. I would remind you that the protection of aboriginal girls from the sexual depredations of both white and aboriginal men was one reason why aboriginal children were “stolen” by successive Australian State and Federal governments.

But there is definitely no cultural or religious sanction towards rape, or towards violence inflicted upon females, in Christian culture as there most definitely is in Islamic societies. Sydney’s Bankstown hospital is now treating two cases of female genital mutilation per month. Muslim girls are being illegally circumcised at what rate nobody knows, and this is happening in Australia, in 2005. There have been two cases of “honour killings” of Muslim girls in Sydney (that I know of) and this behaviour in Britain is so common that it has caused a statistical anomaly in the homicide rate. Muslim teenage girls are statistically far more prone to being murdered than any other group of teenaged females.

RedNeck,

Gang rape have social/educational factors and cannot be related to religions. Take the US rape and gang rape statistics (1 woman victim reported every 7 minutes) and look at cross racial (Hispanic/white/african american). They are all christians (or at least non-muslims).

Most Muslims countries apply death sentence for rapists and most have less than 15-20 cases per year on a 50million + population.

Regards
AK

BOAZ Yes I simply don’t get a lot of your stuff (Ranci ..... tas?). Esoteric or just plain inaccessable. The gap between your signifier and the signified is too great for me. Either I am dumb or you’re trying to be too clever. I think I know which one you will choose. The harshness in your words comes from their smart alecness, unchristian and divisive nature. All the wars and atrocities you mentioned were caused precisely because of political incorrectness and divisive assertions like you and your anti-otherthanus mates pump out. No you don’t welcome the fact that people disagree with you otherwise you wouldn’t attack their ideas with such venom. Irfan’s article was more, ironically, Christian than your writing – because you sir just don’t get the message in the Bible. I try to imagine Jesus deciding whose words would have more value - your belittling politically incorrect divisive, pro-violence responses or Irfan’s anti-terror words advocating love. .
I understood exactly what you meant by your snide assertion that I my “brain” was conditioned by trendy PC thinking. You clearly implied that I couldn’t think for myself. I think the PC incorrectness mob are the ones following the herd and can’t think for themselves. That word trendy pops up frequently when the right (your herd?) want to belittle people’s opinions.
My PCness in part comes from my Dad. He fought in New Guinea and after an Aunt told me of his experiences I suggested (It is along story) to him that he must really hate the Japs. He said that he fought fascism and held no grudge against the Japs – “they’re no different to us at heart its those mongrels that stirred them up…”. He did begrudge Hirohito for not being made accountable. Dad blamed the war more on the negative propaganda merchants, like yourself, who stirred people up. You Boaz constantly attack differences in culture; seldom the positive things common to us all. Dad often reminded me that hatred gets you nowhere especially in conflict and disrespectful carry on (in today’s terminology political incorrectness) only causes strife.

Boaz: Just because people are, according to you, pre-committed to my destruction doesn’t mean I am going to take on their behaviour. I am going to play fair. Being a true Christian is a high-risk life. It’s a long hard road when building a decent world on rock (I am not Christian I reject all religion). You Boaz can join the war mongering and political incorrectness mob – but don’t impose “madness” onto others choosing the PC approach in life.
Advocating PCness is not “madness” but a positive step towards a more sane world. Language carries connotations and implied meanings. Jesus spoke his truth clearly and without malice. Try simplicity instead of sef-indulgent artifice. Your assertions and opinions are laced with political incorrectness, ambiguity and plan nastiness.
We can just pump out political incorrectness and build our house on fear and control, but it will fall down around us and sink into chaos and terror. Do you think the terrorists get their hatred rolling by being politically correct and advocating love? Was Hitler politically correct in his discourse? Were the Rednecks of deep south US politically correct in their propaganda and racist violence? We must not stir up hatred.
You didn’t assert that communists be vetted. You clearly stated “immigrants” must be vetted. Thus the assertion was racist. Just as your preoccupation with attacking immigration suggests a racist attitude. “Racism” is not a “silly mantra” (Bolt speak)but a serious problem.
And your original statement that I was “projecting hatred” in my blog was plain nasty tactics. No I did not. I think you deliberately and maliciously misrepresented to readers (and yourself) what I had said to inflame. I think your ideas/values aren’t built on the ‘Rock ‘ but right-wing propaganda and a political ideology. An ideology that sounds like it is hard and strong but is at heart cruel, hypocritical, empty and dare I say: “POLITICALLY INCORRECT”. And why the communist angle - what has that to do with my blog? I think Irfan and his likeminded fiends have that true Aussie spirit. Good on you folks (Irfan and friends).

My children tell me that at school some particular children are treated like animals by some of the mean teachers and that most teachers do not like the Middle Eastern boys in particular. My children say it is obvious that some teachers pick on them and treat them with disdain and nobody ever says anything.

Parents are told that their child is being bad and is misbehaving and everybody believes it because they are of Middle Eastern background when in fact they are being targeted and treated unfairly and they misbehave out of despair.

Of course it's not all teachers, some teachers are wonderful but certainly there is enough to cause many of our young men to hate as they spend alot of time in this environment. This type of thing isn't limited to teachers, many adults behave the same towards these boys. There is alot of discrimination and racism that remains unchecked and that is causing alot of problems with our youth as they are growing up angry.

Rancitas
This is not 'root canal' work, its discussion. I fail to see where you find 'HATE' in last couple of posts... I'm bewildered. Translating a fairly congenial and reasoned disagreement with your position is hardly 'vicious hate' but then, I find that is how many on the PC front interpret disagreement. Very sad.

I call on other posters to be the jury.

I claim

If hard core communists who take the view of 'dictatorship of the proletariat through any means' including violent revolution vis-a-vis Pol Pot. err.. why would any sain person invite them into their capitalist country ? I further claim that to do so is social suicide.

How can you say "Humanity above Ideology" when faced with this ? the mind boggles. How can you claim that this is 'divisive/hateful/etcetc'

Its not about hating 'people' because of their race, its about defending your country from the inroads of National Socialism, Communism, Militant Islam, Militant calathumpianism or any group or idea which seeks to forcefully impose its view on your freedom.

It is nothing more or less than social responisbility.

Rancitas, if you are of the view that an XYZ community will be able to absorb a large number of ABC people and remain the same, you are deluded. Thats not an insult, its a fact. Funny thing about people, most of them prefer to remain XYZ or ABC.

Rancitas, how brilliant do you have to be, to understand the simple story of Abraham and Lot. Please read it, not because its 'religious' but because it demonstrates the human predicament. Then we can discuss the matter further.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=13&version=31
Just the first 13 verses.

What do we learn about human nature and the source of conflict here ?

Rancitas

BD is exhorting you to read a bible text before he will conduct any further discussion with you. Not a little arrogant.

Your previous posts explained very succinctly and clearly where the hate message is in BD's posts - I hear them also. But you will never get him to admit it. He will try sleight of hand 'read this first' because he cannot engage with you on an equal footing.

The best we can do is ignore him and confine our posts to the topic. From now on I will try to do this. My time is valuable and I have wasted too much of it on unnecessary responses to the sanctimonious.

Irfan, again, has written eloquently and reasonably. It is only to be expected the anguish our Muslim community is experiencing now. Therefore, I wish to let the Muslim community know that despite the vilification from some members of the Australian community - they are just a noisy and noisome minority.

I urge all Muslims to remain in the public spotlight as much as possible by writing and communicating both to their own community and to the world at large. Terrorism is not to be tolerated. We will unite as one in our condemnation of terrorism.

Peace to all.

FIRST... l am a human being .

LAST, and very much least, l am the bordered patch of dirty l was born in, the national coat of arms on the peice of paper that my govt issues at birth and the book of religious superstition l carry under my arm.

And in between all that... l THINK for MYSELF and embrace responsibility for my self, my actions, my thoughts and my motivations.

Sometimes it would just be easier to switch off the light in my head and just blame the nearest scapegoat.

Irfan - I am so angry and frightened after seeing on TV tonight, Muslim clerics and their potential fold for fundamentalism Islam. I cried with fear.

I thought you have always said that Islam/Muslim is peaceful. What I saw tonight and what I have heard on radio today - real interviews with Islamic people in Sydney's west is nothing less that a major threat to everyday Australians.

You have access to all of this stuff. Go back and look and listen again. If that is not Islam/Muslim threatening the whole of Australian community I will eat my hat!

Irfan - I have been extremely tolerant in my posts before. Tonight's stuff is the bloody limit for me - and that bloody Islamic bloke on the radio.

There will be no peace because of the above and because people like yourself keep playing down the issues.

I doubt that I will sleep peacefully tonight.
My apologies for poor grammatical construction - I am too angry to bother.

kalweb,
The 60 Minutes Article on Muslims tonight demonstrates the developing culmination of Left Wing trendies who believed in Multicultural - a melting pot of humanity supposedly to dissapate religious difference. Religious passions are not removed by exposure to others religions.

Qur'an believing Muslims are taught to not make friends of others of different religions - they are the kafir. Al Grasby and his mob have invited the enemy into our house and we cannot remove them. The culmination of these trends will ultimately lead to civil war, as in most Muslim countries, where extremists kill moderate Muslims, as in Egypt.

We need to remove all Muslim segreationalists from Australia to Muslim countries, even if they are citizens.

Trinity, a most interesting post by you....Not only are you 'the all knowing economist' :) but u are also a mind reader.

Sadly, what I learnt from your post, is more about your own personal issues, and how you are projecting them onto me. You know the saying "The sin we hate most in others, is the one we have ourselves"

My purpose in suggesting (not demanding as you understood it) Ranc read the Story of Abraham and Lot is simple. Its a story which is illustrative of human conflict and behavior. I could have picked a slice of history from pre Islamic Bosnia or anywhere.

But the reference to Genesis has another purpose. If anyone wishes to understand Islam and the Middle East, it cannot be done without reference to Genesis, particularly from chapter 12 onward.

Islam claims it was 'ISHMAEL' (ancestor of the Arabs) whom Abraham was commanded to sacrifice, when in reality it was Isaac. If you want to know the significance of that, read Genesis 12 to end, with reference to the 'covenant' and 'who' it is through :) It has bearing on the Land issue also.

RANCITAS I don't follow your logic. People are intending to destroy all you have built your life around, and your going to 'play fair' ?
Sounds a bit dodgy and self destructive to me.

I want to follow your reasoning through in order to understand it. Hence my reference to Abe and Lot. I hope you will indulge me with that story, if not, I can find another.

By the way, you cannot 'vet communists' if you don't KNOW that's what they are. You vet IMMIGRANTS to see if they are 'communists'.. thats how it works. Nothing racist about it at all. Simple national security issue.

I have not the slightest qualm or apology for allocating 'points' to would be immigrants on the basis of our national,cultural,political and social interests.

May I see your comment on Abraham and Lot, and we can follow on with that if you are ok with it.

Irfan

As always it's been a pleasure reading your article.

Much Love to you Brother.

Tieran

Irfan I understand your concern - thank you for your article. Somehow we, as Australians, will unite against terrorism, in spite of those who only wish to foster it with their hate comments.

Sixty Minutes was frightening. We are in a very difficult situation as unless we change the way we deal with these issues, we are not going to be able to deter youths from attending these types of meetings. By discrediting all Muslims for the actions of some and showing anger, discrimination and hate we are helping to recruit new terrorists. We need to be smarter than them.

Because of terrorists acts, young Muslims are being treated with disdain and being picked on, neglected and treated unfairly by adults in positions of power in schools and in society and many western youths take their cues from adults. There is a lot of bad blood and discrimination out there. These Muslims will have no trouble believing that we are against them and they will enjoy hearing hatred and anger aimed at those that have treated them so badly and with such lack of regard and respect. It will make them feel good and worthy. They will believe that the Western world is evil given the way that they have been treated and the level of sex, drugs and nakedness that is openly shown.

We cannot change the views of the older generation but unless we change our attitude to the younger generation and our ways somewhat then they will grow up even angrier than their fathers. Showing understanding, acceptance, guidance and Love at our youth is the only way that we can stop the direction that this is heading.

Of course I personally believe that we need Laws and Rules that have to be adhered to by all. I don’t believe that Multiculturalism works because nobody really accepts each other, we just tolerate each other and there is no obligation when tolerating to be nice or kind. If Muslims want to live in Australia they have to accept the Australian way and culture, they cannot hate the Western way otherwise it won’t work as they will want Australia to change to better suit them.

Not sure what Trinity is on about.

Perhaps a side swipe at BD who has both a genuine heart for debate and a hide as thick as a rhinoceros - blessings brother. I fail to see how anyone could accuse BD of hate, such an easy word to roll of the tongue, or the tip of a pen. Perhaps use of the hate word is the simplest way to avoid debate?

But then maybe the trinitarian man or woman (that's the problem with all these nom de plumes, people can say what they want under the cloak of anonymity things they (hopefully) would never say to your face), is instead taking a side swipe at those Muslims who so scared and angered Kalweb.

That's the problem you have got Irfan if you cannot convince a sweet creature like Kalweb who charges you, "I thought you have always said that Islam/Muslim is peaceful". It is like you are pushing water uphill. You should expend less energy on us poor Christian saps (leave it to the atheists- it gives them special pleasure) and more on your fire breathing co-religionists, and in that project I say more power to Irfan and his like!

Thanx for that support David :) appreciated. My hide is only as thick as my confidence (God forbid it ever be or become 'smugness and arrogance as I'm oft accused of being) in our Lord and His impact on lives even in spite of my stumbling attempts to engage non Christians on social issues.

TRINITY. I noted with concern and believe it or not, compassion your comment in the other thread about your sad experience with a man who abused you. In the same way that I have 'baggage' which I had to deal with on issues of mistreatment under Islam, and need to ensure as best I can, that my comments don't 'just' stem from that (at times they will .. I'm human and not yet perfect) you also need to understand that while we passionately debate issues close to our hearts, you yourself are close to our hearts, the thought of you being emotionally and psychologically damaged by a mans mistreatment is a shameful thing for sure.

We speak as we believe, and the foundation of our faith is a loving God, and a sacrificial Christ. That same Jesus spoke in very 'unloving' and 'intolerant' terms to certain groups of arrogant, greedy, rich, and power hungry people. So, our comments are not without precedent.

Regarding your bitter experience, whether you believe it or not, there is healing for every level to be found in Christ. had I not experienced His love in my own life, who knows where I might be now.

In our weakness, the temptation to 'win an argument' is always there, but also the urgent desire to share what we understand to be truth.

At least you haven't resorted to Xena's tactic of repeatedly calling me a 'little man' :)

JOLANDA I identify with your comments, which is why I attempt to open up an understanding of 'underlying' issues, that should help people avoid 'knee jerk' responses. To be truthful, my comments are aimed more at policy makers, particularly the immigration area, which would be anathema to some here, but, that's where I stand :)

Thank god for 60 minutes. Where would we be without their fair, honest, objectivity. How anyone can get thru the week without a dose of 60 minutes induced ignorance and histeria, l will never know. It has been routinely discredited and exposed for a highly suspect modus and clear and obvious sensationalism and propoganda. Up there with the likes of Winfrey, Springer and Lake. Actually, l suspect that Home and Away is a better current affairs program the 60 minutes. Its amazing that people still watch it, let alone admit to it, foolishly showing their immature gullibility by actually quoting it and using it to rationalise their views. That show is to information what a chiko roll and 2 litres of lard a day is to food. Some people never learn to cook. [Deleted for obscenity.]

Ironic are the accusations of generalised extremism amongst moslems considering the level of hysterical reactions and extremist views of self professed ozzy moderates. [Deleted for vulgarity] Sorry for the insults, but you [Deleted for obscenity.] l suppose that when that stoipud texan kills 10s of thousands of iraqis and afghanis, in the name of god, after a prayer, that means that those of us who carry the same book of mysticism are extremists too. Just following the 'logic' of the radical westerns who dribble the same muck as those whom they purportedly abhor. You extremists argue but you think the same way, to the extent that you are capable of thinking. Thankfully all u do about your views is blab about them.

Hopefully you hysterical scardy cats will cry yourself into irrelevance or preferably cry yourselves into a lifetime of psychotropic medication. Failing that, you could just lock yourselves away in gated communities amongst your own like minded, like skinned kinfolk and spare the rest of us from your delusional vitriolic rhetoric. Your attitude is the problem. Denial and delusion is your only antidote to the responsibility of lucid existence. HOPELESS is wot you are. [Poster suspended for 48 hours.]

The terrorists are winning. Their goal is to divide us.

Christians are posting anti-Islamic messages. Muslims are feeling threatened. Only if we unite can we defeat the terrorist psychopaths. I tried, in vain, to show that there is good and bad in ALL religious texts. As I have stated before I may as well have quoted from LOTR like Garra.

Please, everyone, put aside your theological differences - the Muslim community is a part of the Australian community to ostracise it now means the terrorists have won.

I don't want the terrorists to win - do you?

Trinity: I stand by my original quote re: Irfan and friends. "Well said folks. That is the true Aussie spirit.
A person who learns how to hate unlearns how to love.
A religion that teaches how to hate to the extent that it learns how to terrorise has unlearned its own message and betrayed its own followers.
An Australian who teaches hatred towards his fellows is not an Australian.
A human who learns how to terrorise is not humane.
Anyone who terrorises a citizen, a friend, a nation, a religion has been defeated already - by their own hatred."

As well, I am convinced more than ever that love and the blessing of life itself goes beyond race, ideology, religion and culture. Hate puts these things above life and love. Terrorism is the ultimate disrespect of love and life. Terrorist thinking remains imprisoned in its own culture of killing and desire to force change through fear. This often goes beyond their own teachings.
I see the seeds of this behaviour in these forums. In my culture we believe that there are attitudes that go beyond race, culture, ideology, etc. There is a myriad of different situations, reasons, understanding, and attitudes. To top it off there are many degrees of behaviour, committment, education, influences, delusions and so on. I think Jesus saw this and hence the Golden Rule. Thus, I think, all other passages in the Bible become subservient to this and given Jesus stand on monogamy - even negate others. So I think there are terrorist mindsets and these come in degrees. Some will blow up things, others trawl through forums looking to inflame. I see this often in these blogs. The people attacking my anti-terrorist blogs are aligning themselves with violent thinking.
I am not Christian and I think those who drag in irrelevant stuff to attack clearly anti-terrorist writing use their religion to give authority to their bigotry. They are ideologues first and foremost just like the terrorists. Yes Trinity - i don't think certain bloggers want to open up understanding, despite their claims, but destroy it.

Made a mistake. No time. Meant to write: Terrorists are imprisoned by their own race, ideology, religion and culture. It takes over from their humanity and morphs into killing and cruelty. It blocks them from seeing their own humanity and potential to do positive things. As St. Paul says love will one day free people and if you imagine you can change my thinking on that, you may as well order me to pick lettuce from an apple tree. If you want to know why I think these things then you can go and read my blogs, especially, the ones on how I think good means can only result ultimately in good ends and how bad means, such as terrorism, lying, adultery,etc whilst they might achieve immediate results (like getting re-elected or misrepresenting someones views), ultimately lead to an undermining of the universal truths. I think the first duty of a good citizen is to preserve those truths. Political correctness is a part of that duty to others. The terrorists are my enemy and I refuse to lower myself to their level. As St. Paul says and Irfan points out love is stronger than terrorism. If you imagine you can change my thinking on that, you may as well order me to pick lettuce from an apple tree. Just give hatred the sack. What one hates in others culture, ideologies, race, religion one must not condone when it turns up in your own. Rancitas is as rancitas ........ fill in the spaces.

Well trade, I guess you can always go to another forum on another website.

Given that a delusion (a fixed, false belief system - not based on fact and out of context with the person's sociocultural background - which cannot be reasoned or argued with - is held with unshakeable conviction - and which is not shared by others) is a key indicator of severe psychotic illness, it seems to me that you are suggesting that posters to this thread are all psychotic? Now that is a very interesting proposition. As a psychiatric/mental health nurse of some 30 years duration, I find your suggestion quite mind boggling! You've got me wondering where I went wrong in my own education and the teaching of others at university level.

Moving to a foreign land & culture is generally only done for one of two reasons; fleeing from persecution, or better economic prospects.

Australia, along with western Europe, is quite happy to see its unrepresentative leaders remove them from traditional cultural ties and, whilst not acknowledging its liberal traditions being a result of these Judeo-christian foundations, is happy to accommodate all & sundry and expects that migrants will see the virtue of our easy going society.

So where does this lead us? One would hope that we do not end up with the 'Spanish Reconquest' solution where, rather than addressing these issues when they emerge, we leave them to the point where an all out battle, followed by an Inquisition is the only way of restoring the initial culture.

http://www.islamicity.com/education/ihame/default.asp?Destination=/education/ihame/5.asp

"Until the Inquisition, furthermore, conditions in Spain were not intolerable. The Christians permitted Muslims to work, serve in the army, own land, and even practice their religion - all concessions to the importance of Muslims in Spain's still prosperous economy. But then, in the period of the Inquisition, all the rights of the Muslims were withdrawn, their lives became difficult, and more began to emigrate. Finally, in the early seventeenth century, most of the survivors were forcibly expelled."

Reality Check,

Checked out your web link.

Contrary the glowing story of Islam under the Moors, the Christian memory is somewhat different - Spain under the Muslim Moors was not the jewel of Islamic tolerance for Christians and Jews that your web link purported it to be.

Just for starters, in AD 920 all the inhabitants of Muez were put to the sword. Cordova, Zarajoza and Merida were burned to the ground, with all adult males executed and all women and children enslaved. In AD 1066 all the Jews of Grenada were slaughtered. In AD 1126, all the Christians of Grenada were deported to Morocco.

Dear David,

couldn't agree with you moor (oops) more!

I chose this link because, as a sensitive, tolerant and non-judgemental person, I couldn't find a website that praises the actions of Ferdinand & Isabella without bringing up some anti-catholic slander!

Other than Spain, some of my favorite historical events pertain to Lepanto, and some of the Austro-hungarian outposts that faced the civilising effects of the Ottomans.

Trade, speaking as one of those blank, blank types who watched 60 minutes sometimes I have to ask did you see the story?

Your post suggests not.
Firstly the story was prefixed with the acknowledgement that the overwhelming majority of muslims in Australia are peaceful and not part of the extremism the story was about.

Secondly there were real points of concern in the story. Put in context with extremist behaviours elsewhere in the world some of what I saw made it fairly clear that the extreme end of the muslim community is further out there than is generally acknowledged. Put in context with extremist behaviour in other parts of the world it is legitimate to ask "what do we do about this?".

Shouting down those concerns does not help, open discussion involving all of the community may.

R0bert

kalweb,

great job of misrepresenting my intention by quibbling over degree.

"a delusion (a fixed, false belief system - not based on fact and out of context with the person's sociocultural background - which cannot be reasoned or argued with - is held with unshakeable conviction - and which is not shared by others)"... l think you have made a fair assessment of the situation and that definition does a pretty good job of summing up SOME of the comments.

The tone of your posts and the way you construct your raltionalisations dont seem to be in accord with your experience "as a psychiatric/mental health nurse of some 30 years duration." oh that's right you are a nurse not a doctor. Sorry to dig, but you are making claims of credibility based on experience.

"Well trade, I guess you can always go to another forum on another website." ... ditto.

Dont head shrinks just prescribe a bottle of pills for everything these days, not to mentiion that virtually every behaviour has been classified as a treatable malady.

Woah, really intelligent, empathic, compassionate and reasonable article.
Shame the same cannot be said of most of the posts, no matter what particular philosophy the poster subscribes to.
Maybe we should all give up our faiths, philosophy's and most cherished beliefs (read prejudices), throw our hands up in the air and admit that it is the human condition not to know.
It seems it is our determination to convince others about the rightness of our own beliefs that causes all the grief. For God's, Buddha's, Allah's, The Goddess's, Humanities sake, lets agree to disagree.
If we can't even do it here, in response to this intensely human article, what chance have we got anywhere?

The thing is enaj, religion is important and people forget that to their peril.

Athiests like to lick their chops when religion comes into play but in fact, they are every bit as bitter and twisted as they so like to portray the religious.

Christians have had to put up with plenty of hatred and a fair dose on this website. I sometimes rub my eyes when I read some of the posts and then think, hey, but Stalin and Mao were the greatest butchers of the 20th century and they were athiests.

I think this thread is drawing to an end and I would like to reiterate what I have said before: more power to the Irfans and I do believe the fact that the London bombers were home bred has been a huge wake up call to Muslims generally and we Christians wish them well in their attempts to rein them in (and yes, the sooner America and her allies leave Iraq to the Sunnis and Shias to fight it out among themselves the better) and for my money Irfan is very welcome to live in Australia (and I'm only a 2nd, 4th, 5th, 8th generation Australian). I look forward to having a cup of coffee one day with him and the guys from the Islamic Counil of Victoria after we get this wretched vilification legislation in Victoria, which has only served to drive us apart, amended.

As enaj says, sometimes we have to say on a forum such as this "lets agree to disagree", and let's do our best to remain civilised

Mr Yusuf is just another racist.He expects the average Australian to not think that there is a serious problem with certain ethnic diasporas . These people have a hide to accuse someone like me of racism just for pointing out that I think that their community/culture has too many racist biggots in it. This was all One Nation did, was to react Cabramatta and Bankstown being the crime capitals and to the terrible obvious ethnocentrism and racist disrespect that these ethnic kids are being taught. Two of their most prominent leaders, Keysar Trad and Sheikh Hilaly : Keysar told all muslims to ignore discrimination laws in relation to gays in 2002 at UWS, he then stood by while a certain sheikh Shadi called for sharia courts to be set up in Aust. to stone gays to death. Keysar also called us "white dreggs" and described our culture as sick some years back. As for sheikh Hilaly, he praised the 911 bombers, said that jews run the world with sex and most recently used hostage in Iraq Mr Wood's life as a pawn in his filthy "used car salesman-like" personell campaign.Another lunatic that the muslim community or its leaders just mentioned have not condemned is sheikh Feiz, who said it was a western girls fault if she got raped because they wear shorts etc. These comments were termed "out of place" by Keysar Trad and no other muslim leaders condemned it, they're all silent. How can the Australian public take the muslim community seriously if they don't condemn these racist, biggotted people? Parties like One Nation, who condemn the clustering of racist, crime ridden communities, are called racist by the migrants,and the leftwing people are just cowards and treasonous.

Yep lets all continue the mud slinging - that always makes people feel all warm and fuzzy about each other.

Forget about mutual respect, compassion, tolerance and forget about actually assisting the muslim community in this time of crisis.

Just continue the hate people. That will solve all the world's problems.

Xena,
can you explain to me step by step, (I'm rather dull u see :)

Muslims are intolerant of non muslims, (Hamtramck) but the non muslims are accused of 'intolerance'.....

ICV is intolerant of criticism and sues CTF but 'we' are called 'intolerant'.

Lets put the blow torch on you personally now.

A mosque is built on the vacant block next to YOUR place, (where you have lived for 25 yrs) and they seek permission to blast out the call to prayer 5 times a day on loudspeakers. The 'tolerant' PC council, approve this, by changing the 'noise code' specifically for ONE minority religion knowing full well, that this is going to annoy, irritate and deprive people of their peace of mind.

Please explain to me how you would be'tolerant' of being woken up, specially if you're a shift worker, by a loud voice blaring out 'Mohammed is the messenger of God' 5 times a day, 365 days a year, for the rest of your life ? I'm afraid that to support such abuse is outright irrational. (no...NO rant about assylum seekers on this thread pls :)

Further, how you would feel, knowing that you are a member of the large majority of non muslims, yet there was no ear which would listen to your urgent request for 'quiet'.

Does this constitute "flagrant abuse of society for the narrow benefit of a particular religion" Does it represent a 'positive and upbuilding contribution to cultural and social harmony' ?

Before you just 'attack', please actually respond to the question, HONESTLY then we can move on with the discussion, you are free to raise new points and even attack 'Christian' cultural aspirations, but please, not before you answer this.

I'm afraid Xena, your attacks on people who simply wish to have freedom of speech and peace and quiet are about as rational as 2+2=5 and are showing us more of your apparently disconnected state of mind :) and thats just an observation, and no, I don't hate ya I just DISAGREE with ya. Get over that and keep up the inspiring posts.

This insightful article about Islam is on the 'Answering Islam' website. Why All Muslims Benefit From Terrorism

By David Wood

http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/contact.htm

David Wood points out the difference between various meaning of the word "Islam:
Extract: "If someone were to ask me, "David, do you believe that Islam is a religion of peace?" my answer would not be "Yes" or "No." Rather, my response would be, "First tell me what you mean when you say 'Islam,' for it is a term that is used in different ways." If by "Islam" we mean the religion that is practiced by more than a billion people around the world, I could reasonably answer with a qualified "Yes," because it is a religion of peace for many people (though not for all). But if by "Islam" we mean the religion taught by Muhammad, I would have to respond with a resounding "No." .... "

l have had a close moslem friend for nearly 40 yrs. That friend is a first generation Australian, like me. l was born into a christian family. l am still woundering how that moslem has tolerated my non moslemness all these years.

Nice work on Lateline, Irfan. Even for a Lib. OK, especially for a Lib.

UK extremist to lecture on jihad in Australia

"ONE of Britain's most radical Muslim converts, Abdur Raheem Green, will visit Australia later this month to lecture on the importance of jihad.
Mr Green -- a British citizen born Anthony Green, who has two wives and six children -- was invited to Sydney by the Islamic Development Centre of Australia. In previous speeches, he has said Muslims and Westerners "cannot live peaceably together".
"The truth is that Islam teaches its followers to seek death on the battle field, that dying whilst fighting jihad is one of the surest ways to paradise and Allah's good pleasure," he said. He says conflict between Islam and the West is "not only sanctioned but ordered in the Koran". . . .
FULL ARICLE: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16167022%255E2702,00.html

Abdur Raheem Green VISIT... to Sydney

Lecture Tour: Abdul Raheem Green
Wed 17th to Fri 19 August 2005
Wed: Liverpool; Thursday: Lakemba mosque; Friday...
Presented by the Islamic Development Centre of Australia, over three nights.
Full details and poster... http://islamicsydney.com/story.php?id=2247

Muslims like to claim that Islam is a religion of peace. But this is really quite silly because Islam is a religion rich in doublespeak. In practical terms it means ... if you disturb their peace in Allah, then there'll be no peace for you.

Unfortunately there are countless ways non-Muslims can disturb their peace in Allah, not least of which is the very fact that non-Muslims are infidels.

Hence the ever presence of extremists and terrorists...

BTW I do not associate Allah with the word God. As I believe those dead suicide bombers are presently horrified to discover what's ahead of them.

Muslims are not Australian, no matter what citizenship they hold - 'Australian' is more than a piece of paper of mere legal status.

I am a fifth generation Australian with English and Irish heritage. If I were born in China will you call me Chinese - I do not look Chinese, I do not speak Chinese, I have no Chinese culture, I have no Chinese ancestry etc... I do not look like a duck, sound like a duck or walk like one and I am not a duck!! A Muslim is not Australian.

If I were born in international waters would I be of no nationality...? It is clear that where someone is born should have no weight on the question of their nationality. This makes sense, after all it is man made borders we are talking about - and what if I were born on the border etc. A Muslim is not Australian.

Islamic culture is at war with Australian society - in particular Lebanese have nothing but hatred for Australians and Australian Society.

It is not a question of international terrorism, but a question of the terror faced by Australians on the streets of our society, terror from Lebanese who hate Australians because we are Australian and 'Infidels.

It is a culture of hate for our society and people - we are Infidels to even the moderate Muslims.

Australia needs to make sure that not one Australian girl has the chance of being gang raped by Lebanese in Australian society because she is Australian.

It is time that citizenship meant love for this country and it is time that Australia takes back our society.

Our ancestors built this country and it is being handed to Lebanese who hate us and our society.

It is a 'clash of civilizations' of 'us versus them'!

Lebanese Muslims in Australia should be worried beacuse Australia has had it!!

You think that because of the terrorist bombings in London that I think every Muslim is a terrorist and I am as 'ignorant as the US' - I am not that stupid - I am referring to issues about our society which have existed for 15 years - I am not talking about terrorism at all.

-Australian girls are gang raped by Lebanese, not for 'pleasure' or for 'power' as in common in rape, but because they are Australian and are hated. There has been a spate of such attacks.

-There is a special police task force working in the Western suburbs, Task Force Gain, set up to fight "Lebanese gangs" - the NSW Police use this description.

-There has been a culture of 'hand guns' and 'drive by shootings' introduced into Sydney by Lebanese - the drive by shooting on the Lakemba Police Station; the double murder drive by shooting in the 'Rocks' Sydney.

-NSW Police are shot at whenever they drive down Talopea St. Punchbowl - it is documented and as been reported in the press.

-Every day in the Daily Telegraph there will be some report where the Police are seeking men "of middle eastern appearance", i.e. Lebanese.

The Islamic culture does not assimilate into Australian society and it is Lebanese youths who are not devout Muslims at all and would have nothing to do with terrorism - it is not the issue - the issue is Islam in Australian society.

I will not have my daughter gang raped by Lebanses in Australian society because she is Australian and hated - It is time to 'cleanse' our society and deport Lebanees Muslims who openly do not love Austrlaia,...

...whether they were born here or not is not the matter - they do not look Australian, they do not speak english, they have no Austrlaian culutre, no Australian ancestry - and they themselves say they are not Austrlaian, indeed they say they are proud "Lebs"...

I think I must be living in a different part of Sydney, yet it seems to be the middle of Auburn.

Many of the Lebanese youth here are not religious at all - many don't even attend the weekly Friday prayers. The same can be said for many other youth of different ethnic backgrounds.

There is a problem with the gang mentality, and i applaud the police for dealing with it. Gang culture, no matter what ethnicity or ghetto is abhorrent and needs to be dealt with.

I find it funny - I am a convert to Islam, so how is my religiousness at war with my identity?

You repeat over and over that it is an issue of Islam being against Australian values - yet constantly make reference to ethnicity.

Have you ever met any 2nd generation Lebanese?

I think I must be living in a different part of Sydney, yet it seems to be the middle of Auburn.

Many of the Lebanese youth here are not religious at all - many don't even attend the weekly Friday prayers. The same can be said for many other youth of different ethnic backgrounds who are Muslim. So how does their Islamicness come in to play at all?

There is a problem with the gang mentality, and i applaud the police for dealing with it. Gang culture, no matter what ethnicity or ghetto is abhorrent and needs to be dealt with.

I find it funny - I am a convert to Islam, so how is my religiousness at war with my identity? You repeat over and over that it is an issue of Islam being against Australian values - yet constantly make reference to ethnicity... Many posting here do not even accept how the mainstream Muslim opinion understands their own texts, and instead uses way out fringe/random references that have been discredited for centuries by mainstream scholars (especially contemporary scholars), just to back up their opinions on Muhammad being a pedo, Muslims being told to hate non-Muslims, the 'jihad' verses abrogating all the 'nice' ones and so on.

[edit]
Have you ever met any 2nd generation Lebanese? I am an in-law to one of the bigger Lebanese families here and all of my extended in-laws that I have met are working full time, in respectable jobs, and many have tertiary level education, including law, teaching and other professions. How are they scamming from the taxpayer and other such nonsense?

Also what is all this nonsense about the Adhan playing 5 times a day? The only time I have heard it on loudspeakers since i came here over a year ago was during a Turkish cultural day, and it was only once, at around 1pm, with permission from the local council to do so.

dawood,
The problem may be that these displaced nominal Muslim youth are angry with our our society, and with their identity with Islam.
Quote, "Many of the Lebanese youth here are not religious at all - many don't even attend the weekly Friday prayers."

Australian democratic values allows each person to hold and practise their religion; strict adherence to Shari'ah denies this right.

Quote, "I find it funny - I am a convert to Islam, so how is my religiousness at war with my identity? You repeat over and over that it is an issue of Islam being against Australian values - yet constantly make reference to ethnicity... Many posting here do not even accept how the mainstream Muslim opinion understands their own texts, and instead uses way out fringe/random references that have been discredited for centuries by mainstream scholars ...."

Also what is all this nonsense about the Adhan playing 5 times a day? The only time I have heard it on loudspeakers since i came here over a year ago was during a Turkish cultural day, and it was only once, at around 1pm, with permission from the local council to do so.

The fact is when a council is largely Muslim will they give permission for it to happen 5 times a day?

"The problem may be that these displaced nominal Muslim youth are angry with our our society, and with their identity with Islam."

For sure, and this is something both the Australian Government/society and the Muslim Community had to address, and are working on currently. A number of community initiatives are taking place.

"Australian democratic values allows each person to hold and practise their religion; strict adherence to Shari'ah denies this right."

How do you know what Shariah does and does not do in regards to this? Specifically how it relates to Muslims in a non-Muslim environment?

"The fact is when a council is largely Muslim will they give permission for it to happen 5 times a day?"

First of all that isn't a "fact". You are conflating the "demonic Shariah" with politics, which in Australia are not the same thing, and most likely never will be. Isn't that an issue for the community itself to decide by voting rather than scare-mongering anyway? (made up of Muslims from various ethnicities, Christians from various ethnicities including Arab, Chinese, Sri Lankan and whoever else is part of the community)

Even in Auburn, accordng to the 2001 Census there were only 13,083 people who identify themselves at some level as Muslims with a population present on census night of 56,379. Less than 10% were of Lebanese ancestry (I assume including Lebanese Christians) and it is a smaller number for Turks.

I really don't understand this fear or scaremongering when the statistics speak for themselves... I myself am happy enough hearing the Adhan inside the mosque, at home, or on my PC and I am sure many others are too as that is all they know.