Freedom of speech is the issue. We need to be able to speak freely not just for ourselves but for the sake of non-Muslims who are oppressed in many Islamic countries. We do the oppressed no favours when we ignore their plight in order to be nice to Muslims.

Those who say there is no right or wrong and that all views are equal are weakening the west. Evil must be condemned, but you can't condemn something as evil unless you believe something is good. "All denuciation implies a moral doctrine of some kind". Relativism is undermining the wests ability to stand against Islamic extremism.

Relativists are the enemies within the gate. They say all views are equal but as soon as you say you are right and others are wrong they are quick to say you are wrong for saying that. But if all views are equal they cannot say your view is wrong. Relativism is intellectualy bankrupt and opens the door to all kinds of evil.

See the brilliant book "The Absolutes" by James Robison http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0842368973/qid=1122344990/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1965682-7704634?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Some people will do what ever they can to silence others, whether it is the use of PC or simply labelling them fanatics. To see how Islamic extremists have been trying to silence people all over the world read the following.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/free_speech.htm

For those who like to attack religion but have forgotten how many people have been killed in the name of athiesm (eg. Pol-pot, Stalin, Chairman Mao etc). The following is a good read.

6 Modern Myths by Philip Sampson (Phd Sociology)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/083082281X/qid=1122344593/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1965682-7704634?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

And for those who think Muslims and Christians are equally tolerant and open to debate and correction see if you can find a site policy on the Islamic sites like this one.

http://www.answering-islam.org/policy.html

Alchemist, I'm not sure that I fully understand the point you are trying to make with your last post that was directed to me. I have stated previously that I am an atheist. So maybe you were preaching to the converted - to coin a rather ironic phrase.

Now I have been deeply troubled by the extreme position taken by some of the christians on this forum. That is why I posted a linked to information about 'Christian Identity' which shares idelology with many of the posts placed on this forum.

The antipathy towards myself, Muslims and different cultures by these posters is appalling. However, I know that there are many people who are religious and who are tolerant and inclusive of differing races, creeds etc.

I believe that it is the extremists of any belief system that create the catalyst for terrorism.

I don't share your belief that people who are religious are necessarily mentally ill - superstitious maybe. But it is just as extreme to paint all religious people as mentally deficient or sick - I find that just as divisive as the extreme posts from the fundamentalists.

I do agree that the world would have a lot less to argue about if there was no religion - but I don't see that happening. Religion is a source of solace for many people. And there are many very good people who are religious; Bishop Spong and our own Father Bob Maguire for example.

Sorry Alchemist but I found much of your post as extreme and divisive as the extreme christians.

Thanks Xena! Very few really understand The alchemist. If we could only understand his idiological basis for an ordered society. We know what he does not believe; presupposes a negative life.

Anti-semetic Christianity - I have a dear nephew an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi. Twelve years trained in King David College Sydney, two years Hebrew studies in Israel, five years University Israel, two years in USA, now resides in WA as a Rabbi, I hardly qualify as an anti-semetic extremist.

The alchemist
Do you classify an extremist as one who will use violence to achieve his/her goals or merely one who opposes your philosophic position? You make no contributionto the issue of this debate on freedom of speech / vilification, but prefer to continue to degrade and vilify those you disagree with. It may be Australia has afforded you the right to vilify, stop the vilification and post your defence of your right to degrade all religions.

Check the following Quote from your posts. DOES IT ALSO QUALIFY UNDER THE SAME DEFINITION YOU DEFINE OTHERS POSTS? "When that doesn't work, they start subtle abuse and put downs of their opposition, then ridicule anyone that can't accept their fantasy. I just hope, and I won't hold my breath, that a cure can be found for this large mass of mentally ill people around the world, that are becoming sicker and sicker by the day. When this illness reaches its zenith, all the religious will have in their hearts, is hate and a desire for revenge no matter what the cost. ...This country, has one last opportunity to stop this disease from contaminating us all, but that can't happen, the disease has already infected the politicians, they are all acting under its influence and control. The introduction of religious vilification laws, that allow for non believers to be vilified, is just a sign of how repugnant this religious disease is to us all that have the sense to see what reality is."

I suggest you research the Vilification Tribunals records of who has brought cases for judgment. How many atheists have been charged

I have not been discussing anti-semitism. I have been talking about the Christian Identity movement in general. I do know that Philo has a very conservative interpretation of the bible. I have not claimed that he is anti-semitic. Anti-semitism is merely one aspect of this conservative group and doesn’t necessarily apply to all.

A very conservative interpretation of the bible leads to the christian identity's conservative and right-wing agenda. They are exclusive and have been responsible for a lot of terrorism on their own part eg; anti-abortionist Clayton Waagner.

Anti-Immigration is also a part of the agenda – many posts here have been against immigration – not all from Christian extremists, however enough have been placed.

In fact the hostile nature of many of the extreme Christian posts is what prompted me to investigate this phenomenon. I find it hard to reconcile a belief in the very peaceful and quite left wing Jesus Christ with the narrow and hateful posts of many self proclaimed Christians to this site.

Like Islam, Christianity professes to be about peace for all people. And like Islam, Christianity has been hi-jacked by those with a conservative controlling agenda.

Apologies Xena, I meant to say, just like the Christians, not actually referring to you. Bbbrad, Stalin, pol pot, Mao, all ideologists, just like the religious, just more violent. Real non believers don't have an ideology, just an acceptance of the reality of the universe. Philo, I agreed with your post, multiculturalism and vilification. Attacking me doesn't do your cause any good. History justifies my statement about all religion being the same evil thing. No amount of buck passing will change those historical facts. Because I have the belief that it is I who are responsible for my being and not some fantasy that I can pass the buck to, then be forgiven no matter what I have done, you try the insult ploy, saying Iv'e had a negative life. The sadness I have for you, is nothing to the sadness for those throughout history that have suffered, so the name of god can be imposed upon one and all. Philo, confused again, nonbeliever vilification does not refer to us being charged, it relates to us being unable to bring charges against the religious for them vilifying us. I am a dimensionalist, we see us as a part of an ever changing and evolving universe. A universe that has many different dimensions that intermingle with our own. For us what's important is to open the door between this 3th dimension and the 4th. Once we open it, we may see where our destiny is leading. As some of us have come to this understanding, we may be able to take our consciousness with us on the next step in our evolutionary path. Wow, look at all those horrific words I have used, evolution, dimensions, reality. I am sure that you will have no trouble mocking me, so go for it, I love it when you all get uppity, abusive and so confused, then role out illogical scriptural waffle. There is but one really big problem in the world at the moment, undeniably, that is religion.

Wow, alchemist, quite a rant!

You say, (and I think I could actually understand this part), "the sadness I have for you, is nothing to the sadness for those throughout history that have suffered, so the name of god can be imposed upon one and all" Stalin religious, Mao religious?

But yes, men have used religion to oppress others who disagree. Human nature is such that men and women will use means at hand to oppress others and no weapon in the armoury is more powerful than religion, so I suppose atheistic materialism as practiced by Stalin et al is a religion, so to some extent I'm with you alchemist, though if you now say "I’m holier than thou", I say, “beware, for pride comes before a fall”!

Jesus had a rather famous saying on this subject: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye”

We seem to be a fair way from the topic……., but I guess the thread has pretty well dried up.