BOAZ_David, have a look at your response to references to your own foundation document and the actions of the father of Jesus. Plenty of wholesale killing there including the murder of children and others.

You appear to insist on treating such incidents in a different manner to the manner you treat incidents in the Quran.

"Are you suggesting that Christians have no interest or don't base their mindset on their own foundation documents ? This totally escapes me."

Let the followers of the religion whose foundation documents are without sin cast the first stone.

R0bert

Part 2.

The events we relate to you all, are not in dispute by Muslims, (except Ash will tell you that just the ringleaders of the Banu Qurazya were executed) they are rationalized.

The oppostion to the War of liberation in Iraq, comes mostly from "Sunni" Muslims. How much trouble are we hearing about from Shia Muslims these days ? pretty much zero. Why ? Because instead of an 'oppressed majority' they are now a FREE majority.

Yet, "Disillusioned British Muslim Youth" are trying to dictate UK foreign policy to 'get out of Iraq, and other Islamic countries' umm if they did .. right now .. would it be 'peace and tranquility' or a Shia/Sunni/Kurd blood bath of proportions to boggle the mind ? So, we need to ask, 'who are' these 'British youths'... hmm I suspect they are SUNNI.

So, back to the legislation, and for Ranier's sake, the CTF case.
Dude, Danny Naliah was not formerly a Muslim so please review your facts. http://www.catchthefire.com.au/ see biography bit.

If the legislation was implemented even handidly, it would be less of a problem. But when on the evidence (again from personal experience with the EOC) it is used as a 'selective political tool' to protect the interests of particular constituencies, the worry flags go up to full mast.

Truth, should NEVER be viewed as 'vilification'.

Someone said once "Anyone who sees and paints a sky green and fields blue ought to be sterilized." .. (do a search) i.e. missing reality.

Vilifaction is this.

When quoting Jesus 'driving out the sellers in the temple' one interprets this as meaning "Jesus hated the Jews" and promotes the idea.
When in fact, he was attacking 'specific' individuals who were using the Temple for profit. That (mis)interpretation about Christ hating Jews cost the lives of around 6 million people.

Solution: correctly interpreting the text. All we are asking, is that truth about Islam be recognized as it is, not as people would like it to be based on 'liberal social values'.

BD >>Solution: correctly interpreting the text. All we are asking, is that truth about Islam be recognized as it is<<

Only if the truth about ALL other religions, including yours, be recognised as it is.

Now do you see how truth can be used to inspire hatred?

If you have German friends do you constantly remind them of the truth about nazis?

I'm Tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual, religion or culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by Australians.

However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia.

However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, American, tongues, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our National Motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it in our schools.

If we offend your old culture, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because we are part of our culture. If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like (A Fair Go), then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.
This is OUR COUNTRY, Our Land, and Our Lifestyle, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this.

But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, our non believing, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".

Alchemist, thank you for your thoughtful piece.

I hope to do some work on the topic of multiculturalism and its limits, a topic the recent London outrages have caused quite a few to reflect on. In my own denomination, a striking feature is the high proportion (maybe as high a 15-20% and growing) of people other than of European origin: Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Arabic speakers from various middle eastern/north African countries, Sudanese, Samoans come to mind. What binds us together is a common (christian) faith, but also a shared pleasure in living in this nation where we have some many privileges, freedoms, etc. However, it is not easy integrating all these different people because, despite a common religion, there are real cultural differences.

The London bombing highlighted the alienation of a small but significant proportion of Muslim young people. Integrating people who share the values and world view of the predominant religion (Christianity, however much that may be despised by some) is one issue, but can that be done where the religion is very different and where there has been an unhappy history between the two? That is a legitimate question to ask.

Now I can hear the atheists among you saying a plague on you both! However atheism is not the answer. In a post today Spengler (Asia Times) has written, “Humankind cannot abide the terror of mortality without the promise of immortality. In the absence of religion human society sinks into depressive torpor. Secular society therefore is an oxymoron, for the death of religion leads quickly enough to the death of society itself.”

I think all the indications are that the West in its departure from its religious foundation is dying, not least through its failure to maintain an adequate fertility rate. Muslims are holding up well on fertility, church going Christians likewise. Demographic studies suggests the world is heading in the direction of more religion, not less. Basically, infertility is slowly killing off the secular world, it just hopes it can recruit sufficient from the religious to hold its end up. This will become increasingly unlikely

Dear Xena,

In reply to your post on the 28th of July.

I don't like it when people attack what I believe but I support their right to do so. If someone tried to use physical force or the law to silence those who criticize what I believe I would oppose that person. People have a right to criticize what I believe even if it hurts, but I have a right to defend what I believe.

If someone attacks what I believe I will argue the case for why I believe what I believe, I will not take the law into my own hands and physically attack that person. Neither will I try to get the government to silence that person.

If I was walking down the street and some people yelled out, "lets kill Ali!" I would come to Ali's defence. Not because I agree with Ali but because he is a human being made in the image of God and as such he has intrinsic value. (If someone tore up a picture of you what would that say about what they thought of you?)

People cross the line when they encourage others to take the law into their own hands or silence those who disagree with them. That is what many in the Islamic world are trying to do.

In the Quran Muslims are told that Allah will strengthen them to take vengence on their enemies. That is why Islam is having so many problems and why freedom of speech is not exactly a strong point in the Islamic world.

Is it wrong to say others are wrong? No it is not but we must be willing to examine the evidence to see if that is the case.

If we say we should not say things which are offensive to others then we cannot say Neo-Nazis are wrong.

This debate is no small matter because it is freedom of speech which is on trial.

I strongly recommend the book "The Absolutes" by James Robison for anyone who really cares about freedom of speech.