Laurie,
I think women had the pill first because they called for it, although there appears to be a lot of women who still don’t use any type of contraception, or rely on the condom only. However you have not yet put forward one suggestion on how to reduce the abortion rate.

Below is an updated draft of the proposed system.

1 Increased research into the reasons for abortion in Australia.
2 Public education programs to encourage greater use of more reliable forms of contraception.
3 Government programs to make adoption of children easier.
4 Medicare to fund abortions.
5 Medicare to fund the cost of the pregnancy going to term, if the mother and father agree to adopt out the child (for now, termed pregnancy/adoption).
6 Three or more abortions and the mother is charged with an offence (as she has had opportunity to limit unwanted pregnancy by the use of better contraception, sterilization, adopting out the baby etc).
7 Three or more pregnancy/adoptions and the mother is charged with an offence.
8 If the woman has had three abortions or pregnancy/adoptions with the same father, that father is also charged with an offence.
9 Compulsory counselling before and after any abortion or pregnancy/adoption.
10 All counselling is to include the known father where possible.
11 Counselling after any abortion or pregnancy/adoption is to include an education program for the better use of contraception by the mother and father.
11 Government or private companies to carry out increased research into other types of male contraception (eg male pill, RISUG method etc.)

Under this system, the mother and father are allowed 2 public funded abortions and 2 public funded pregnancy/adoptions, and any more and they are charged. Counselling is used throughout.

If that doesn’t decrease the abortion rate, then it is reduced to 1 public funded abortion and 2 public funded pregnancy/adoptions etc.

I hope the author is reading this list, to try and make something out of these endless forums on abortion on OLO. If she has read the list, (and agrees/disagrees) perhaps some comment.

Pt 2
-religious or humanist in origin.

Currently if the polls say that the majority of Australian want non-life threatening abortions than fine, I would just want to see a man being forced to pay for a child he didn’t want to be cancelled as it is fundamentally unfair.

& if we are poll driven and majority rules if Pro-life became the majority, your should give up your fertility “right” and be a good citizen.

”We have absolute right to do what we want with our body including abuse them with drugs (use of drugs is not an offence – possession is)”

Nitpicking you think the aim isn’t to stop people abusing their bodies? What is the whole euthanasia debate about if we can do whatever we like to our bodies?

”Curbing commercial exploitation was the reason for the criminalisation of abortions in the mid 19th century - nothing to do with the embryo.”

The only factor? What about poverty and social morals where the woman didn’t want anyone to know the birth so thought it necessary to seek the backyard solution in the first place? I would be surprised if that were the only reason.

Timkins I’d like to see research about what is said to mother, the reasons they feel it is necessary to have an abortion and what resources if any is their for counseling to have the child but give it up to adoption.

I’d also have an debate about sexual education that promoted non-vaginal sexual activities ie mutual masturbation/massage, oral or anal. I heard that the UK was promoting oral sex to teenagers to avoid teenage pregnancies

And

12. An offence if three or more pregnancies caused by itinernant males (Also known as 'spreading wild oats') with other women.

And yes I did note number 8.

Timkins how do you propose to enforce such draconian measures?

Seriously though, like it or not, women will continue to seek control over their fertility and make their decisions based on their unique circumstances and beliefs.

(Just for the record I have been taken off oral contraception as I suffer from migraines - too much risk with hormonal contraception - quite common.)

Hey Trinity, the pill is not just high-risk for migraine sufferers and smokers either - it has been declared a carcinogenic for women in general - heard it on ABC radio. Kinda puts the mockers on Timkins little system of retribution.

Anyway I agree w/you as it is still women who get pregnant - to have or not to have an abortion will remain with women.

Boo Hoo fellas.

Trinity, Zena
Still no real suggestions on how to decrease the abortion rate.

I get the opinion that some people are accepting of our present rate of abortions (about 40% of pregnancies) even though other countries have a lower rate. There is a limit to most things, so what rate of abortion do you think would be too much, 60%, 80%, 100%?

The normal thing for many people is to “blame it on the male” and say that “females are being perpetually victimized” etc, so if measures are put into place to try and curb abortion, then this is construed as males trying to control females, while it is ignored or hidden, how much abortions can negatively effect women both physically and mentally, or how it becomes unhealthy for society to have so many unwanted and discarded children.

Overall I sense that all this “choice” business, is simply a way of ignoring responsibility, while being able to point the finger at the male gender.

I would think the three strikes and you are out rule would be rarely applied, as most people would not go through 2 abortions and 2 pregnancy/adoptions with counselling undertaken after each one, without making quite significant changes to their life style or use of contraception.

(BTW, use of the male condom is much more common than use of the female condom, and male sterilization is 5 times more common than female sterilization, and women’s literature and feminism seem to be encouraging women to become highly promiscuous etc, as discussed in previous posts.)

The system proposed uses the three strikes and your out rule as a deterrent, but it also emphasises further research, counselling, contraception education, (and for both the mothers and fathers). It is ironic that so many people will try and say that abortion is all the man’s fault etc, etc, etc then want to exclude men from the counselling process.

Still waiting on some real suggestions on how to reduce the abortion rate (without saying males are always to blame, women can't use contraception, sex is rape, only men want sex etc)

Timkins, Timkins, Timkins always the reactionary.

“(without saying males are always to blame, women can't use contraception, sex is rape, only men want sex)”

I don’t recall any posters here stating the above – may be that’s simply your alarmist reaction to comments with which you disagree.

You failed to answer Trinity’s question – how do you propose enforcing these ‘offences’? What would be the punishment?

Another point, while lowering the abortion rate is preferable, no women uses abortion as a preferred method of contraception – it is the last resort. I do not see it in the alarmist terms that you do. I don’t see it as murder, therefore, I don’t see abortion as something that is criminal. Ergot not a punishable offence.

As for the rate of abortion – you are being absurd when you ask if 100% is acceptable. If you wish to be taken seriously then posit reasonable levels and don’t be so offensive.

You state that male sterilization is 5 times the rate for women. If true congratulations fellas! Well done! It is a much simpler operation for men than for women. I hope this stat is true. This is called taking responsibility for yourself.

We are, in general, better informed about our sexuality and reproduction than ever before. Still I imagine there are those who indiscriminately fornicate – I notice you had nothing to say about the ‘spreading of the wild oats’ – something which is encouraged among some men. Not ALL men, Timkins, no more with the >>she-must-be-a-man-hater-because-she-believes-in-equal-rights rant. We’ve all heard you before on that topic.

And just where do you get the idea that wanting ‘choice’ is yet another way at pointing the finger at men? Do you have a guilty conscience or what?

No! Choice is about deciding what is better – becoming a parent or not becoming a parent. MY body, MY responsibility; MY choice.