Trinity,

You do talk a lot of rubbish. Men rarely 'force' women to have babies - they force women to have abortions! Even Germaine Greer acknowledged this.

You said your SOB husband used to beat you. Why didn't you leave him? Why take your misery out on the baby?

You think abortion is just about women. You're wrong. My wife has miscarried a couple of times early on. It filled me with grief. I have lost my child. Men suffer when their children die - we tend not to talk about it though. A friend's wife had 3 abortions. He was supportive the first time, indifferent the 2nd, and deeply hurt the 3rd time. Why was she killing his children for no apparent reason? They worked through it, eventually had 2 children and started a pro-life counselling service.

Re Control,

The only people who are trying to control women's lives are the pro-abortion folk. Suggest that a debate on abortion is warranted and they go ballistic. Suggest abortion counselling is too pro-abortion and they go troppo. When women go to pro-abortion counsellors they don't get talked out of having an abortion...

Pro-life or Pro-Choice?

Interesting how the pro-abortions like to label themselves pro-choice compared with pro-lifers who are pictured as being anti-choice. The reality, however, is that pro-abortionists are anything but pro-choice. The accounts of women in Melinda Tankard Reist's book demonstrate this. The only viable option they present is abortion, and they do not adequately explain the many possible complications. And yes women still die from abortions today in hospitals and clinics.

Pro-lifers OTOH, present ALL the choices but point out that abortions, although a quick fix, will likely leave them scarred for life, emotionally and physically. They do not, and cannot, stop women from seeking an abortion.

Let's cut the crap - abortion advocates are "Pro-Abortion". They are most definitely not "Pro-Choice".

Di,

You said: "Women, who happen to have a womb and the ability to have children - or not! should have the ultimate decision. Not god, not men, not politics, nor society. We are entitled, as over 50% of the voting, living, breathing population to have the ultimate choice over this. We are entitled to have safe and affordable access to birth control, medication, et al. with all facts, counselling without being prejudice either side."

Di, women have always had this choice. You can choose to have sex or not have sex. If you choose to have sex then you also choose to accept the risk that you may become pregnant even if you're on birth control since these do not always work.

Di, part of growing up and becoming an adult is that you accept responsibility for your own actions. People who do not accept this responsibility we describe as "immature" or "juvenile".

The same applies to men who get women pregnant. If they don't accept responsibility for what they have done then they too are juveniles.

Unfortunately, it appears we are breeding a nation of juveniles...

First, I empathise with all the pro-abortionist who went through the most traumatic experience in their lives and lived to tell their little secrets.
Then, for those other naive souls with skeletons in the lader, their excuses in political correctness, leaves me numb - morally and ethically.
Abortions per se, is a hienous crime against humanity. Whether you declassify the featus as blob or whatever, will haunt your conscience till the day you die. We gloss over this abberation with all sorts of lame excuses - reality, we consciously called the shot and despite all the posturing we females ad lib to provide subtefuge cover, it will never erase the criminality. We, in Oz carry out 8000 plus miscarriages annually which goes to illustrate conclusively all the sex education at High school,relegious classes,media counselling have done nothing - zilch, to stem the haemorrhaging. Further, the Catholic heirachy forbid the use of condoms in or out of marriage and it is to their detriment, the laughing stock of the Western World.
Peer pressure, lover's inducements, parents have a lot to answer for in aiding and abetting this oppresive stigmata on those wide eyed children whose bodies are defiled in the heat of passion, but whose brains are hardly matured enough to absorb the scenario.
The Feds are offering $4000 per child these days - hopefully this will encourage the pro-life protagonist to rue the day. If, ONLY we would collectively take full responsibility for lives and not resort to all those whimsical excuses to justify our RIGHT to decide the fate of another. Who knows, he or she may be another Einstien !

Dalma,
Do not assume you know how other people feel.
My miscarriage was traumatic, my first child stopping breathing in my arms and having to be resuscitated 3 times was traumatic. My abortion was not. It does not haunt my conscience, at all. I wish I had not become pregnant ( despite being responsible and using a condom and spermicide), but that is all. You might wish me to feel something I don't because it suits your personal view, but that doesn't make it happen.
The reason I call myself pro-choice and not pro-abortion is simple. No-one wants to have an abortion, we all hope we won't be faced with having to make such a choice. But some of us are not so fortunate and we choose what we see as the lesser of two evils. You may see it as a heinous crime, I do not. Unfortunately for you, most people are more pragmatic about abortion than you are. Perhaps because, as I stated in a previous post, they have had scares and know that if they haven't actually had to decide whether or not to have an abortion (and hundreds of thousands of women have), it was more by good luck than good management.

In this forum, it would do us all well to learn about 'the other side' of the 'debate'.

'Pro-choicers' should read Melinda Tankard Reist's 'Giving Sorrow Words' - the stories of around 18 women whose lives have been deeply and profoundly affected by grief over their abortions.

'Pro-lifers' should read Leslie Cannold's 'The Abortion Myth'; a thoughtful exploration of this issue from a 'pro-choice' perspective, which acknowledges our growing familiarity with stages of life in the womb, rather than deferring to extreme insensitivity over the foetus.

Both should be read with an open mind, accepting the possibility that there could be many different 'right' answers here...

There is nothing triumphant about the decision to abort a life. Some women are devastated with grief over their abortion, some women believe it was the right decision and feel little grief or guilt, some women feel ambivalent. I don't believe that any would go out and celebrate over it.

All parties, and the community, deserve correct, unbiased information so they can make the most appropriate decision possible for their circumstances. Women, their partners and their families deserve accurate, non-judgemental counselling that respects and incorporates their belief system. They deserve real support, regardless of their decision.

Both extremes need to get over their dogma - then maybe everyone's perspective could be heard and understood without fear of ridicule or abuse.

A simple man’s second opinion.

Seems to be 2 factors argued here:

1. When does a pregnancy involve a ‘human life’?
2. What does the woman feel as a result of abortion?

On the first:
From what I have read, there are two schools of thought. If you believe it’s from conception, then the resulting abortion (if it occurs) is taking a life. If you go by medical/scientific thought (which is also not settled) then you are removing a ‘growth’ for want of a better word.

The difference between the two is perceived in the mind. A woman’s (and if involved man’s) decision will first be guided by this belief. I would think that a person’s beliefs are, well, personal and no-one has a right or obligation to impose beliefs on others.

The second:
Seems to me that a woman’s feelings will very much depend on what they believe about the first – but will also be tempered by other factors (age, life situation, religion, economic position, etc). There is no guaranteed response from the woman (or man) as to what they will feel as a result of an abortion. Again to impose one’s feelings on another is not a right or obligation.

I believe Tracey had it right (and I’m sure other’s have said it) – No one would willingly undertake an abortion as a course of action, simply because the service is available. No woman (or man) would like to be put through that. That is why many use contraceptives (even against the will of their religion) – to avoid that particular situation.

However, it does happen. Sometimes after all the efforts to avoid – and sometimes with no responsibility taken. The end result is the same.

The only thing that is common in all this is that people will do as they believe is right. And no-one can judge another’s beliefs. That is for God (if you so believe to do).

That is why I believe it is a choice for the couple and ultimately the woman. No one else’s.

By the way, I was raised Christian.