Timkins,

Your comment, feminists think "...a female hairdresser should be paid the same as a male engineer, or a mother doing child minding should be paid by government (or some other person, as feminists seldom care where money comes from) the same amount as a male doctor" is, in your words, complete crap.

"...there are minimal skills and training required to put clothes into a washing machine and press a button, or even hang those clothes on a clothes line."

True. Not highly skilled work. Even men can do that [sorry, couldn't resist ;) ]... but figures are dependent on type of work undertaken, frequency etc.

For example, in managing a household with two pre-school age children (two and three.5), work begins at 4.30am some days when my youngest wakes, and doesn't end until... well... my eldest is still up now, though in bed. Some days I get breaks long enough to sit at the computer for 10 minutes at a time.

Then I'm up to them a minimum of three times a night. Washing (clothes and dishes, no dishwasher, cloth nappies), cooking, shopping, cleaning, balancing budgets, personal care (toilet training, helping them dress, bathing), education (yes, I'm teaching them), outdoor play, excursions... 365 days, thankyou - no days off or weekends.

Find me a parallel in the paid work sector. Have you stayed home to raise young children?

"Housework...should only take a couple of hours per day if properly organised"

Pah.

"Once housework chores are done, the person has the rest of the day free."

What - the four hours I'm allowed to sleep?

"If someone does not like standing in line at supermarkets, then go first thing when they open... they will be out of there in 30 minutes.. this type of organisation ... reduces housework to a couple of hours per day maximum"

Dream on, Timkins. There are many varying levels of household management undertaken by people at many varying stages of their lives.

R0bert,

Fair call if that's your assessment of this Commission, and these authors. I disagree. But I appreciate the way you put it.

Daniel

Thanks for your article. I always enjoy your writing - always good "think tank" stuff. I like your writing style. I do not have to agree with what you say to enjoy the debate that you are trying to generate.

The above summation of your article is quite concrete for me. I think that the thrust of your article is about teaching "team playing" in the home - which later on in life will assist in team work - regardless of the work environment. Is that too simplistic?

The family principles that we were taught as kids have held me in good stead all of my life. We didn't get paid pocket money for doing jobs around the home. We did our jobs because that was part of being our family. I must admit though - if my brother could get out of anything, he would! I, on the other hand, loved doing things for Mum and Dad. I used to try and surprise them with little jobs - such as weeding the garden - even though they just about had a heart attack when they found their best garden bed had been de-nuded of the plants (I thought they were weeds!).

I cannot comment on the dollar value (weekly wage) of women who have children and are stay at home mothers. I do not have children - am in no position to judge.

Our family team principles extended in to team sports for all of our pre-adult years. My brother and I were great team members and players.

Does this have anything to do with washing up and stuff? On the surface - no. My brother is a single parent with two young teenage girls (their mother died when they were babies). He has a full time job and he does all of the housework and stuff - apart from very ill Grandma who does all of the washing and ironing. I wonder what a Dad like he is worth on the dollar?

Cheers

Tracy, to be fair I have not read this particular study yet. Thanks for the link supplied in your earlier post.

My observation was based on my perceptions of Prue Gowards history in this kind of issue (she has made some very sexist and generalised comments about men on a number of occasions) and the techniques employed in previous studies.

These kind of reports bother me because they get misused and misrepresented. Where is Pru's report into the "Sofa Loafers" who are living off their kids? (I know that's not all single mums and that many are trying really hard). Prue seems fairly keen to tackle mens shortcomings but I've seen no attempt to deal with women doing the wrong thing.

If you are home schooling and using cloth nappies your workload is likely to be much greater than the norm. Are they choices you make or absolute necessities? It seems that whatever generalisations we are able to make there will be exceptions (another generalisation). Many of the points Timkins makes are relevant to many of us.

Jobs that are often refered to as significant items seem to be a non issue. Laundry being a classic, it really is a simple and quick (excluding cloth nappies). I do the grocery shop when my son is not with me and in the evening when the supermarket is quiet. I do the ironing in the lounge so I can watch a movie or something at the same time. I enjoy gardening so garden maintenance is more pleasure than pain and I'm setting gardens up to be low maintenance. I mostly use frozen vegs and try and manage meals so that they are healthy and quick to prepare (lots of stir fries etc). I don't have a dishwasher either. I've set up an old TV in the kitchen so I can catch the news while I cook, wash dishes etc. Basically trying to find ways to make things work better.

Your circumstances are different and solutions for you will be different.

Cheers
R0bert

"Fighting over who does the dishes is a long standing Australian tradition"

Simple question: "why" ?

Ok, everyone knows my position on most things, its the Biblical one, and I feel that in this 'us/them' atmosphere, it might be refreshing to have a different 'outside the loop' perspective.

"Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her"

"Do for your wife, as you would have her do for you"

Translate this into the daily grind of home management/maintainace/dishwashing... what comes to my mind is "You cook, I'll wash" or vice versa.

Perhaps it has beCOME a fighting thing, because we have wandered from the foundation we began on ?

As the bumper sticker goes "Does God seem far away ? guess who moved"...

In 1956 there were 150,000 people (largest crowd EVER for any event at the MCG listening to Billy Graham. Recently, I along with 37,000 others from 800 churches shared in the visit of his son Franklin, at Telstra stadium.

Looking at the state of our society, one is tempted to see a link between the polarization of our socio/political situation and a departure from values which have proved enduring.

I never see anything resembling a 'solution' to these types of debates, nor do I see much compromise, but I do see a lot of justification of entrenched positions. it seems to me like the pendulum is never going to stop at the rest position without a hand grabbing it.

It should not surprise anyone, then, that I come to these discussions with a totally different approach.

There is nothing 'evil' or 'unjust' about complementary roles for male female in society, there can be unjust or evil manipulation of such roles, and abandonment of responsibilities, but this does not negate the values themselves. There are ways of protecting the paries to the social contract, even though they might not be doing the same type of work.
Life is really about enjoying it, and being happy. Complementary social roles is not a barrier to that worthy goal.

Excluding your religious bend BD, I do agree with your post (!). There is no real reason to have a definition of roles for gender anymore. A shared, co-operative working environment is all that should be expected. However there are still sexist men and there are still manipulative women.

I understand Timkin’s point though. When you are one who does ‘his fair share’, it is difficult to see words that generalise and don’t represent your position.

BD, just please don’t state that a woman’s place is in the home!

DD: “By not teaching children they have a role to play in the running of a household we are not instilling in them the most basic life skills.”

Absolutely.

In the home, children make much better allies than they do enemies– but I have found that you have to start involving them in domestic solutions from the moment they start tipping things all over the kitchen floor – let them help to clean it up, they love it.

My 5 all pitch in, of course there are arguments but they can all cook, wash, clean etc – the older ones shop, bank, pay bills, search real estate adds, repel door salespeople etc. Sometimes even the dinner is ready when I get home!!

Sounds too good to be true? Try it - I started very early - the young ones seem to learn more from the older ones than the parent?

Now I’m going to cop flack for this one but perhaps women are worth more than men per housework hour – how many men can multitask?

For lazy spouses? Maybe the same as young children – when they make a mess bring out the gear and show them how to clean it up, every time.

Timkins, see if you can get on the Commission.