While some men apparently have had experiences in their relationships with women that have left them feeling bitter and twisted, this does not excuse the sheer disingenuousness of those who attempt to claim that domestic violence is not overwhelmingly a crime that is perpetrated by men against women. Like I said previously, where is the demand for 'men's refuges' for men seeking respite from abusive women? There isn't one because the problem doesn't really exist.

Other men in this thread would have us believe that men are 'stronger' than women and should be dominant, and reinforce this with biblical quotes. Just as well no Christian husbands beat their wives, eh? 'Specially when they get a bit uppity...

I'm impressed by guys like "Ambo" who have evidently had the guts to to take a good honest look at themselves and amend their behaviour towards their families accordingly. That's being a real man, in my opinion.

Real men enjoy equal relationships with women (and, indeed, with other men), and don't need to prop up their egos by attempting to be dominant.

Sure there are violent men - who would dispute it? This is acknowledged in our society in ways such as forcible removal of men from their homes, women’s refuges, and Family Court decisions. It is so ingrained in our belief systems, that it is often assumed without question.

My personal experience includes little or no physical violence, but if I was a younger Ambo, I could understand how provocation could play a part. As it was in my case, long term appeasement was employed up to the point of almost total disconnection. Eventually it became so obviously unsustainable that she had to go.

While there was some “light” physical violence coming from my ex (no-one ever needed to go to hospital:-), I had on 2-3 occasions had to push her away when attacking me, and similarly, at times protect the children from whatever psychosis she happened to be suffering on the day. There was never any reason for me to claim the battered husband label, as it was the emotional violence that was most constant, and most unbearable. I don’t know what her issues were. I hope she has learnt something along the way as she tries to cling on to the youngest child from our marriage. Hope that child does not turn out more psychologically damaged, only because she unconditionally loved her mother. Hope that the almost $20k in child support (over 35k of gross, while I'm also supporting another child at home) still qualifies me as father, and falls within the bounds of what it means to be a man.

While I acknowledge the comments of Ambo and others, it is about time we studied factors such as DV in more serious ways. Claiming it is always the fault of males, no longer makes any sense to me, especially at a time when broken families are so prevalent and so much is at stake.

Ringtail, Garra

Ringtail:-
Your labelling of myself is typically unsubstantiated, (ie. made up) and I have noted a considerable number of unsubstantiated statements being made about the male gender in the press and in the academic world, and very often the male gender is being portrayed negatively with very few positive statements being made about males, which is a form of stereotyping and discrimination.

It appears that science has long known about the natural predilections or “strengths” that the genders have for certain tasks, and it has nothing to do with “patriarchy” (eg “Among young adults, six out of every seven males outperform the average female in the ability to create dynamic mental representations of the physical world.” http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/kleinfeld200501250746.asp )

However if you or anyone else wants to learn more about the male gender or what it is to be a man, or if you think that males are in need of much or total reform, then try a very real experiment.

Live in any society anywhere, but don’t go into any buildings built by a male, don’t use anything invented by a male, don’t eat any food produced by a male, don’t have any type of contact with any art produced by a male, don’t use something paid for by taxes that have originally come from a male etc.

And when carrying out this experiment (that can be very easily carried out at anytime), know that men have lived for considerable periods of time with minimal being origionaly provided by females (eg from onboard sailing ships to onboard space stations), so no one should be getting too negative, too maligning or too unappreciative of the male gender.

Garra,
Before you become too preoccupied with unsubstantiated labelling of others as being “bitter”, “twisted” etc, or become too preoccupied with DV statistics that negatively portray the male gender, perhaps you should read articles at http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/00000006DC52.htm or http://www.safe4all.org/essays/thomas_james which describes just a few of the ways that DV statistics can be distorted so as to stereotype the male gender, and act as a form of misandrist propaganda.

This posting has taken a strange turn , Whilst I fully expect women to turn on men sence any weakness and contrive to exploit it I am beside myself that men who dont understand what it is to be a man take pedantic views and distortions at being critisized for their opinions . generally dignity sets a human apart from the rest mant woman Ive known behave in a dignified manner , perhaps the greatest area where men fall down is once they are appointed family court judges , as not a sole could reasonable say the Family court system is either just dignified or even on the most basic level bound and conducted by rules of evidence or social dignity.

Generally Ive put various facts to large sample audiences and not a one agreed or accepted family court findings .

Like slavery or subversion if you deny dignity and justice is a formalised equitable proposition suposedly conducted with dignity , if you take that levelling of the play feild and justice then your sure to get dissillusioned folks in society .

It appears to me that is where this posting has gone and somewhat lost on what one persons view of co dependant relationships goes to constituting manhood.

Garra this is for you ,not to offend but to enlighten .
The overwhelming majority of domestic abuse is against children ,
Systemic abusers are crafty and take advantage of the low social status of children to abuse them with very little chance of being caught .

My mother committed outstandingly disgracefull violent and repeatative acts of humiliation denorgration and violence against me all my childhood , I servived on the streets as soon as I could get away and built what I thought was a sucessfull life in bussiness family and socialy cognitive conduct , all the while with zero tolerance for child abuse , In effect it effected the way I see the world relationships and my tolerance levels .I did this not knowing why but fearing becoming violent abusive and manipulating .

Some time ago after not having any contact by my choice as a healthy practice for my sanity never having reconsiled what was done to me. I accepted it as abusive and not my fault , I learnt a lesson never to be forgoten, Abusive people dont change ,as soon as I was being falsely accussed of violence and child sexual abuse myself by my ex wife instructed by my violentmy mother a family court lawyer as a tool for sucess in the family courts she came as witness against me and proud as punch admitted and described serious abuse in court before a Judge , who in his findings didnt know what to make of it .
I think a SENCE OF DUTY of justice and dignity just isnt present in judges.

Treat and promote differences and dignity and a better world will follow

happy, have you bothered to look at the "abused child trust" web site or the "NSW Child Death review team" report referenced in an earlier posting? What is being done now is not protecting kids, it is putting them in harms way. The mens rights movement is most directly about addressing some of the harm being done to men in a biased system, seeking a level playing field. We are also very concerned about the harm being done to our kids by the current system, not incompatible goals.

The DV paper referenced in the earlier post included the following point in relation to serious injury -
"Among injury presentations positively identified as domestic violence in a large, recent study of five Victorian hospitals, women outnumbered men by nearly 5 to 1 (Monash University Accident Research Centre, 1994). However the disproportion in serious injuries was less extreme, with 24% of the men and 13% of the women requiring hospital admission. Issues of labelling, misreporting by patients, and selectivity in willingness to seek help make it difficult to generalise from clinical studies."

I'm not trying to attack or blame women in this, I am trying to stop the unreasonable denegration of men that occurs in relation to family violence. In the end we will both probably continue believing that the stats we favour are the real one's. I can say I honestly try to avoid stats which are likley to have an inbuilt bias - I would not consider using DV stats which were collected only from men yet many quite happily use stats collected entirely from women.

I think this issue is sympomatic of some of the issues facing men which are contributing to the kind of lost state described in the article. I am trying to stay on topic and at the same time provide backing for my comments - not an easy line.