Sandgroper !
did u actually read my last post ?????? I'm critical of the Holywood situation and also of other issues that u may be filtering out in your apparent desire to 'categorize' me.
Did you by any chance note my post about 'Inherited wealth and the opium trade '??? do u have any clue who I was referring to ????

I am fully aware of the issues you raised. And just in case u didn't know I'm NOT Jewish. My heritage is Scottish English.
My support for Israel is not an easy one for a non Christian to understand. Let me make a few points.
1/ I don't get any joy out of people being hurt.
2/ Israel's existence by 'nature' will mean a warlike atmosphere in that area.
3/ The borders you refer to .. WHY should they return any such land lost in a war which was waged AGAINST them ?????
4/ Did u see my 'bleak' post (refer Graces criticism) about why I don't believe peace will come ?
5/ Did u note my comment in that same post about a possible ARAB victory ? (if the Temple is rebuilt)
6/ The return of Israel is something I see as fulfillment of biblical prophecy. (big picture understanding)So no matter how u regard that, its where I stand.
7/ Given 6 and 3 above, I believe the nation of Israel has the right to defend itself and its existence from those who would quite happily fill the Jordan with every drop of Jewish blood.

There is nothing more special about Jews than Arabs, God did not 'choose' the Jews because they were goodie goodies, He chose them to fulfill His purpose of redemption. Thru them the Messiah came

GRACE....
My 'bleak' post.
I don't mean to sound like a pessimist Grace, in fact I'm the opposite. But as I said, my ulitimate optimism is with the coming of the Lord. Its difficult for me to think otherwise, after all, I have feathers, webbed feet and a bill, so..I quack :)

Grace I think you REALLY need to have a good read of the Old Testament. Genesis 11 to end of 2nd Chronicles. And if u can zip over to some country where the culture is similar while u read, u might get a tiny grasp of the way those events have shaped the mind of today's Jews.

Apart from such an understanding of their self perception and how this goes to the very core of their being, its not easy to enter into their mindset.
The same goes for Arabs. The rise of Islam and how that effects their mindset. One needs to read the biography of Mohammed, the 'Companions' etc..
I chat with Jews quite a bit, and with Arabs too, (irc) and I'm always trying to broaden my understanding of this area and its people.
Of all places on earth, reconciling the Arab and Israeli view of Jerusalem (alone) would be the single most impossible task facing humanity. This is most acute in regard to the Temple mount. Ehud Barak tried to persuade the Arabs that the Jews could control UNDER the mosque, and the Arabs the surface. Arafat disagreed because he felt they would undermine the Dome of the Rock and Al Aksah mosque etc. Amazing eh.. a little chunk of land as big as the Westgate maybe.. and it determines so much of the worlds thinking. (hence my suggestion about reading)
I'm optimistic about Aboriginal reconciliation in Australia and many other things where we actually have a chance to fix things. Jerusalem is unfixable in human terms.
Journey. I'm one of those pathetically weak humans who 'needs a crutch' :) I enjoy the journey, doing things along the way to make it more stimulating and thrilling, but I prefer to know that map is reliable.

Sandgroper.

3 three years after they shut down the last oven in Auchwitz. Your Middle Eastern pin up boys invaded this UN CREATION.
What part of "Lest We Forget" are you unfamilliar with. The reason Israel has never shed an ounce of the Occupied Territories rests with the OFTEN REPORTED BUT CONVENIENTLY IGNORED policy of refusing to recognise Israel right to exist.

Sandgroper. I'd be interested to here your view on Native Title in Australia. Remember, the Al Asqa Mosque is built on the remains of the Temple of Jerusalem.
You can't support Native Title legislation in Oz & be pro Palestinian, and Vice Versa...

Sayaret
have u heard anything about the Red Heifer ? I found some info on some sites suggesting it has been identified and within a couple of years it can be determined if it can be used to 'purify' the temple area, paving the way to re-building it.

Boaz, according to your beliefs "Jerusalem is unfixable in human terms". You say that any moves to find peace in the middle east are a complete waste of time, and that we must all sit still and wait for the "second coming". Meanwhile the massacre of the innocents continues.

Your view is in accordance with christian fundamentalists in the USA, who have become a very powerful force in the Bush administration's foreign policy, and who believe that that the zionist cause is god's work in Israel, as it represents the working out of some mystical biblical prophecy. The zionist's cause is the complete destruction of any palestinian claims to settlement in their homeland, by force and bloodshed, because this might interfere with the rebuilding of the temple.

Apparently, any movement toward peace in the middle east is against the wishes of your god and the second coming, and the god of the zionists who wants to build a temple, not to mention the god of the muslim fundamentalists who wants to build a mosque in the same place. What a really stupid bunch of gods.

What is interesting is the political link between the zionists and the christian fundamentalists in the USA and increasingly here in Australia, if your posts are anything to go by Boaz.

Zionists must be well aware that after the christian "end times", when the jewish temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem, then your god will save all the christians and leave all the jews to rot in hell (not to mention the rest of us). I repeat an extract from an earlier posting of mine:

"Throughout US history, conservative Christians who were evangelical or fundamentalist and have taken the word of the Bible literally, have believed that the creation of Israel was a necessity for the fulfillment of Christian prophecy. So its in the interest of Christians focused on the ultimate accomplishment of the Second Coming of Christ that the Jews go back to Israel, and this creates a natural affinity with Jews around the issue of Israel. But the real story is that the Jewish conquest of the land of Israel advances Christian prophecy to the moment when redemption comes. And at that moment, Jews will have converted, or they will be left out. They will not be redeemed." (Esther Kaplan's "With God on their Side: How Christian Fundamentalists trampled Science, Policy and Democracy in George W Bush's White House", The New Press 2004).

This is an extraordinary marriage of convenience, where the zionists appear to be getting the raw end of the pineapple from you christians, in the longer term. It suggests that there is another agenda being worked out here.

That is, the Bush administration is pursuing its real foreign policy objective, which is to control middle east oil reserves with the support of Israel, armed to the teeth by american arms profiteers. As pay back from the Bush administration, the zionists are encouraged to go on killing the palestinians in pursuit of their own religious prophecies about the rebuilding of the temple, so long as they assist in securing american access to the oil fields.

Meanwhile, the christian fundamentalists muster massive electoral support for the Bush administration in its support for Israel and the zionists because this accords with their religious prophecies about the second coming, when the jews will get it in the neck after the temple is built in Jerusalem.

And the massacre of the innocents continues as american military bases continue to proliferate around the major oil reserves in the middle east.

The palestinians are fighting a political war of survival that has less to do with religion than with the rotten colonial deal they got in relation to their historical homeland. But the palestinians can whistle dixie because this does not accord with the Bush administration support for Israel in pursuit of its own geopolitical agenda.

And saudis like Osama are not only religious fundamentalists, they have very clear political objections to american control of the oil fields in the middle east. Hence 9/11 and the flood of muslim fundamentalists into Iraq and Iran in opposition to the american occupation in Iraq and war-mongering in Iran.

And let's not talk about the personal and very profitable connections between the saudis, the bin ladens and the Bush family and business cronies in the energy industries.

Through this tangled web of deceit and lies, of blind relgious fanaticism and the murder of innocents, there is looming another complication. Oil supplies are declining, global warming continues apace, and we are facing global catastrophe unless we can wean ourselves off oil dependency. Perhaps this is the real road to peace in the middle east.

In other words, to (mis)quote the political maxim, its not the temple, stupid, its the oil.

Grace !!!
well done :) man.. u could sit an exam with that.
Now.. ur gonna accuse me of simply 'agreeing with you to slip in those bible verses eh '...
But seriously speaking. Your little essay encompassed quite a bit of truth, and a lot of almost truth (not suggesting u misrepresented, just that the views you expressed are incomplete in some areas and include some 'close but no cigar' implications of the various factions and belief systems at work).
Its difficult to tackle it all, because u said so much.
I'll try to do justice to it though.

CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS.
.. are a mixed breed. Pre Millenialists, Post Millenialists, PAN millenialists (It'll all pan out ok in the end) Pre Tribulation Rapturists, Post trib rapture ..etc.
Then u have the Fred Phelps's (who's expression of the faith I find rather questionable to be kind) and all manner of diverse groups.
While they will not differ on the 'Christ died for our sins' fundamental, they often differ on 'last days' issues.

OIL or TEMPLE
U mentioned many competing and conflicting forces and interests in there. So, its better to represent the situation as being a combination of them rather than one or the other. The correct degree of emphasis or weight placed on each one, would require considerable study and research. I'll freely concede that control (at worst) and 'continued access' (at best) would be high on the list of priorities of ANY US administration. (as such things have always been high on the agenda of every 'empire') I'd even concede that there would be those among said administration who would capitalize on the Christian prophetic view as far as it assisted them in fulfilling those goals and conversely so. I should point out though, that administrations are not monolithic, and would include Christians who do not share the particular eschatological view which sees the restoration of Israel as crucial to the 2nd coming. Another point, is that anyone who knows his/her bible and the way God works, will know that we cannot hasten or hinder Gods outworking. Reminder of what Jesus said "If they did not speak, even the rocks would cry out" on his entry to Jerusalem.

ANY MOVE TOWARD PEACE IS AGAINST GOD. (?)
Now, I can't agree with this. Its not what we are saying. We are saying that 'they' will not achieve peace, by their own stubborn self will. We are explaining it in terms of both human nature and religious history. By all means... lets seek peace, lets give it a good shot... see IF it is possible for them to live together in a 2 State solution. My position is that it won't work. Not that I don't WANT it to work, but if it does.. all power to them. It would still not make any difference to the return of Christ.

I point to the red heifer issue as one possible 'fly in the ointment' which would certainly bring on serious disruption, and only time will tell if this direction is persued by the religious right among the Jews.

JEWS WILL GET IT IN THE NECK......
Paul said "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel." (Romans 9:1 ff)

We also share that view. No one wants Jews to 'get it in the neck'.
Bear in mind, please, Paul.. the author of this letter, only needed to deny his own conversion and all would be well. He could go back to the high position of respect and power he previously occupied as a Hebrew of the Hebrews, so.. what stopped him ? (goto ur room and think about this :) Instead, he chose to proclaim Christ, which almost cost him his life on numerous occasions, including being stoned at Lystra. (Perhaps one of those rocks dislodged some grey matter and turned him into a loony ?)

STUPID GODS
It's mine.. NO.. ITS MINE... no no no..its MINE MINE MINE. Well.. I don't quite see the issue of the Temple mount like that but your welcome to. One could say that about any competing religious systems I suppose. But we should take care to understand the issue in better than infantile ways :)

CONCLUSION. Try not to bite off the WHOLE elephant in one mouthfull, its easier if we eat him one mouthful at a time.