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The Forum > Article Comments > Are anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism one and the same thing? > Comments

Are anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism one and the same thing? : Comments

By Philip Mendes, published 4/2/2005

Philip Mendes draws distinctions between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism

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Boaz,

What you're stating is painfully obvious. Every state and ethnic group has a unique perspective. You want to defer judgement to the biggest guns and the Almighty, but you're ignoring the WILL to exercise power, which is largely determined by public opinion BEFORE the guns start blazing. Every individual should hold themselves partly responsible for the actions of their state leadership--elected or not.

Frankly, I don't think you're capable of intelligent dialogue on this issue. You're all over the map. You're trying to get me to 'examine my presuppositions' because you don't know anything about the subject at hand. This is about Zionism and my right to protest it without being branded an antisemite. If you want to discuss whether Hirohito's perspective was more relevent or righteous than Roosevelt's, bring it up in the appropriate thread.
Posted by steppenwolf, Saturday, 26 February 2005 9:30:18 AM
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Steppen
u have a right to protest and not to be branded an anti semite in the process, no argument there, but while I take your point about being 'all over the map' .. I don't accept that as a weakness in my position. You want to criticize Israel/American actions, fine, but my concern is that such criticism appears to lack credibility because you are simple speaking from within your own generation, expressing 'its' values, rather than looking deeper at why such things happen in the first place. I suppose it could be called 'generational blinkers'. Philosophers have always tried to step 'OUT' of the social environment which moulded them. Why not give it a try yourself ? Suggesting I "don't know" about this or that is a pretty feeble defence, when in fact I have quite a broad grasp of the issues, but choose not to become entangled in them because they are circular and for that reason I mentioned the other things which will shed more light on the fundamental historical drives which are shaping the future of the area.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 26 February 2005 12:38:32 PM
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Aspin wrote that: "Zionism" is nothing more - or less - than the movement for national liberation of the Jewish people. ... the very idea that of all peoples, the Jews are the only ones who do not have a right to self-determination is in and of itself based on a kind of racism and anti-semitism.”

Response: There was a faction of the early Zionist movement that did not seek a Jewish State but sought a spiritual and cultural focus for the Jewish people where Jews would be one culture within a multi-cultural Palestine, but from early last century, after the spiritual/cultural Zionists left the movement, Zionism became a movement to create a Jewish nation-state in Palestine. For Political Zionism, the Jewish people throughout the world would be transferred into Palestine and the natives of Palestine (except for Jewish natives) would be transferred (against their will, no doubt) out of Palestine. The spiritual/cultural form of Zionism was not racist. The Zionist movement to create and maintain a Jewish nation-state in Palestine is racist. Anti-Zionism is anti-racist.

There is no right for all peoples or nations to have a nation-state, although it could well be argued that all peoples should have the right to some degree of self-empowerment. Religious groups also seek a degree of self-empowerment – there are synods and congresses of every religion and sect but there is no there is no right for every one of them to have their own nation-state.

Are the Jews of Palestine (or America) entitled to a nation-state separate from other Palestinians (or Americans)? Should the Moslems of India be encouraged to migrate to a Moslem state? India has peoples of 4 different races, 1,652 different languages and dialects, numerous religions and myriad ethnicities – does every ethnic/religious/language/racial group have the right to a separate nation-state? China officially registers 56 ethnic groups – which of these has the right to a separate nation-state and which does not?. British citizenship encompases English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish nationalities - all in one nation-state! Jews and Palestinians will one day have equal rights in one nation-state.
Posted by RayBer, Friday, 24 June 2005 9:52:29 PM
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Aspin makes another point:
Ask most Palestinian Arabs, they'll tell you that although Zionism created the Naqba - they realize that they have to live with a Jewish state and are even happy to do so.

RayBer responds:
Has Aspin really asked most Palestinian Arabs this question? Palestinian websites are grappling either with how Palestinians will live besides the State of Israel, which the PLO has recognised as a state in the area (but not as a “Jewish state”), or else how Palestinians can live with together with the descendants of the Zionists in a binational federal state or a unitary democratic secular state. Obviously the descendants of the Zionists are now born in Israel/Palestine and are now natives of geographical Palestine and are not responsible for the crimes of their forebears. I have not seen any Palestinian website that postulates that Israel has some right to be an exclusively Jewish state! What would happen to the Israeli non-Jews? One fifth of Israel’s poplation is non-Jewish! There is no more compulsion for the international community to recognise Israel as a Jewish State than there was for the international community to recognise South Africa as an Apartheid State, to recognise Iran as a Muslim Repubic, or to recognise China as a Communist State.

It is not the fact that there is discrimination that differentiates Israel from other countries. The difference between discrimination found around the world and Israel’s form of racism/apartheid is that in an apartheid/racist state the discrimination is engineered by the state legislature. As Josh succinctly wrote: Zionist Israel has a two tiered society where there is a legal difference between citizenship and nationality rights. All citizens can vote but nationality rights are exclusively for Jews. These provide for better class health care, priority university education, jobs, low rate loans etc and the right to buy land. 93% of Israeli land is reserved for Jews only. See: http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=584
Posted by RayBer, Friday, 24 June 2005 10:10:01 PM
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Ray Ber
you touched on a number of important issues, but it became clear that the more you wrote, the more you relied on secular political/humanistic attempts to solve the problem.

One point you made was that Israel has no more right than the other scenarios/groups you mentioned, to be regarded as or have a 'Nation State' but the point you miss in this, is that they have no LESS right. Expanding.. every nation state which exists today, from my observation of history, is one which emerged out of war/conflict/aggression/displacement etc.

It is these nation states which all have the same kind of background which are beyond hypocritical when they accuse Israel or any other emerging power or state of this or that crime/evil/bad behavior etc. They,(the existing nation states) from their peaceful arm chairs in their peaceful lounge rooms, in their advanced economies which were fed by the denial of human rights and basic justice to millions, and which only exist because of others who have been trampled on, have less right than anyone to criticize Israel or Zimbabwe etc for carving out their own niche.

Look at ourselves here in Australia. Look at how the indigenous people were treated so that settlers could transform (and destroy) the land for the sake of sheep and cattle grazing.

Don't let my nick fool you, I'm not Jewish. I tend to take a theological view of the conflict, and I have also a long memory for history. I would take my point of reference to be the Roman destruction of the Jewish State in AD70. One has to reflect on the idea that if ones nation can be stolen by another, is it also not possible to retake it ? Is it less legitimate ? Is restoring stolen property an 'evil' ? Do we not charge people with 'receipt of stolen goods' if they have knowingly accepted them ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 25 June 2005 7:24:16 PM
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