SOLUTION ?

Anti zionist fundamentalists.
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Really, none of the others matter anywhere near as much as this one.
Because they are the ones driving the agenda.
So, I'll address my comments questions to it.
They have their corresponding Ultra Zionist Orthodox Jews within Israel. Any person of today, who thinks in their wildest dreams that there will ever be resolution between these groups is truly in need of some serious reflection and dare I say it, on the Old Testament from specially Genesis 11 onward. It is totally impossible to even glimpse an appreciation of what the history of Israel means to firstly the Orthodox but also in a latecomer sense the Palestinians.
The Arabs since rise of Islam, and the associated traditions of war and great victories and expansion are all living in abject humiliation by the very existence of Israel. All of their history, and sentimental attachment are focused on this area. Even the very thought of the Dome of the Rock/Al Aksah mosque being constantly under threat due to Jewish soveriegnty would be like a running festering sore to all Muslims.

INDIGENOUS PALESTINIANS ? err.. is this referring to left over Canaanites and Philistines ? or to migrating Arabs who moved in after the exile/theft of the land by the Romans in AD70 ? If it is the descendants of the Canaanites (if there are any), well, any Jew who knows his Torah will know they were mean't to be final solutioned. That this was not carried out, was the cause of continual problems in the 'promised land'.

LEFT FUNDAMENTALISTs
The anti zionist cause certainly is most vociferiously shouted by the Left, but I'm not sure why ? Is it based on a perception of the "rich Jew" ? as opposed to the 'downtrodden Arab/palestinian' ? Why is the left not more supportive of the Jews and their plight post World WarII ? curious that. We were also deafened by the silence of the Left over the horrific treatment of Iraqis by Sadaam Hussein. Perhaps his standing as 'socialist' was a contributing factor to that silence ?

Can anyone reading this, show me an example anywhere, anytime from all recorded history, where two competing groups with similar but conflicting claims to a chunk of territory, were able to live side by side in peace ? Or, where they were able to do so without a decisive power balance which in turn would have been demonstrated by the last conflict between them ? and which will also contain the seeds of the NEXT conflict ?

THE REAL QUESTION.
I wonder how many people really think that the Radicals among the Palestinians are 'radical' simply because of some lost territory ?
I feel the problem goes MUCH deeper than that and cannot be separated from the spiritual history of the places and their significance to each group. While it is true that most of the extremists appear to arise from among the dispossessed Arabs in the refugee camps, I believe that this dispossession simply highlights and brings to the surface the other previously dormant passions. i.e. If they were allowed to return, the conflict would not dissappear. An examination of the rhetoric of these groups should prove enlightening in this regard.

Does anyone seriously suggest that because we in the west have had relative peace for just over 50 yrs, that we have suddenly achieved a level of social evolution and now are able to solve our conflicts without resorting to violence ? Once again.. 'fantasyland' comes to mind. Periods of peace of much longer have existed only to be smashed asunder by either social revolution or egomaniacal capitalistic greed.

Anti semitism will always exist while Jews remain isolated and an identifiable group within societies. It will become much louder and more visible to the degree that it is perceived that Jews are 'controlling' things. It would exist without any Israel.

Josh.
your grasp of current affairs seems beyond question. Your assumptions about morality and Israel are lacking.
All you have done, is condemn Israel. You have not condemned any Arab actions, like deliberately firing rockets from a populated area which DREW the tank fire which recently killed a number of young palestinians. Are you forgetting the propoganda war ?
Are u suggesting Israel should not exist ? You are long on analysis and short on real solution.
You describe evangelical Christians as 'nutter christians'. Perhaps you should look more closely at what lays behind such views ?
In the light of my own post above, which could be supported by umpteen references to pretty much the whole world for the whole of history, among all competing ethnic groups, I fail to see that you actually said anything. You seem to be focusing on the symptom rather than the cause. You seem surprised that Jews/Zionists in the USA would seek to influence things in favor of the survival of Israel. Well stay tuned. That is the VERY way that the Jews have survived throughout history. Going back to Queen Esther in the Old Testament.

Strange bedfellows, christian fundamentalists and zionists, but when they work so well together in promoting further violence, bloodshed and destruction in the middle east, as they do in the Bush administration, it is worth lifting the blanket to see what they are up to.

The following is an extract from Esther Kaplan's "With God on their Side: How Christian Fundamentalists trampled Science, Policy and Democracy in George W Bush's White House", The New Press 2004:

"While most American Jews and most Israelis support an independent Palestinian state and support some dismantling of Jewish settlements to achieve that end, Christian Zionists believe that all of biblical Palestine - including the West Bank - must be under Jewish control. They donate millions of dollars to projects in Jewish settlements, long recognised by American officials as obstacles to peace.."( p 29)

"Jean Hardisty is the founder of the Massachussetts-based Political Research Associates, a watchdog of the American far right, and she has long tracked conservative Christian fundamentalist thought. 'Throughout US history, conservative Christians who were evangelical or fundamentalist and have taken the word of the Bible literally, have believed that the creation of Israel was a necessity for the fulfillment of Christian prophecy,' she says. 'So its in the interest of Christians focused on the ultimate accomplishment of the Second Coming of Christ that the Jews go back to Israel, and this creates a natural affinity with Jews around the issue of Israel. But the real story is that the Jewish conquest of the land of Israel advances Christian prophecy to the moment when redemption comes. And at that moment, Jews will have converted, or they will be left out. They will not be redeemed.'" (p 27)

"The Christians' Israel Public Action Campaign claims to lobby Capitol Hill daily on behalf of 'policies that support Israel on biblical grounds', putting pressure on the House, the Senate and the White House. When Bush called for Israel to withdraw its tanks from West Bank cities after the army's reoccupation in April 2002, Falwell helped get 100,000 emails to the White House in protest. Bush silenced his criticism, and the Israeli army stayed put. That September, responding to international pressure to intervene in the escalating Israel/Palestine crisis, the United States joined Russia, Europe and the United Nations, a group known as 'the Quartet', in endorsing a road map for a peace agreement and a Palestinian state. Falwell, Robertson, and Christian right groups such as the Christian Coalition responded by turning out thousands to Washington for a Christian Support for Israel Rally to demand 'no negotiations with terrorists', 'no dismantling of Jewish communities in biblical Israel', and 'no to a Palestinian state'..." (p 28)

And mention must be made of the "Cattlemen of the Apocalypse", described as "American livestock breeders shipping herds to the Holy Land to breed the red heifer that would signal Israelis to rebuild the Temple. Of the 145 supposedly illlegal Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories, funds from American evangelicals are said to support a third." (Kevin Phillips, "American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune and the Politics of Deceit in the House of Bush", Viking 2004, p 231)

Grace....continues to be amazing :)
Shock horror.."Christians actually believe the bible".. now this comes as quite a momentus thing... but mild and warm hearted sarcasm aside, Grace, a few things need to be closely analysed in what you brought for our consideration.
1/ PEACE WITH TERRITORY.. the things you quote seem to suggest that as long as Israel crawls back into his pre 6day war borders (which themselves were a result of a previous war) "all will be well" the Palestinian extremists will suddenly demote themselves to 'just passionate', and the Orthodox Jews (who for your information actually SPIT on the evangelical Christians who visit Jerusalem) will also cease their own 3000 yr old belief system about the Temple, the land etc. and all liberals and leftys will be able to pat each other on the back at having now solved probably the oldest crisis in the world.
2/ BIBLE IS WRONG.
Well this is of course a matter for personal struggle, each individual must decide if they believe that the prolific prophecies in the Old Testament which point to Jesus, let alone any future situation in the Biblical lands are true or invalid.

3/ 'CHRISTIANS ARE PROMOTING VIOLENCE'. Hmmm that's a hairy one. There is a slight difference between supporting the re-establishment of Israel and promoting violence. Please see point 1 above. I suggest, that even withOUT the support of Christians, Israel would be re-established. Grace..if u wish to see Biblical/historical precedents for this, u may refer to the Book of Esther, and Daniel among others. There has ALways been some Jewish/Israelite identity in foreign governments who has 'saved the day' for the Jews. Looking at world events, and the recent 2000 yrs, this has appeared to be lacking, but now, the re-establishment of the people in the land is showing that such a thing still prevails.

4/ Red Heiffer.
Grace.. I note you included a reference to that in one of the quotes.. do u know the significance of this ? Here is a link which may shed more light on this matter. As far as I can see, the Red Heifer HAS already been identified, 6 months ago, but it must be 3 yrs old before it can be used as per the Jewish ritual of purification.
http://www.iahushua.com/JQ/prophezi.htm
I have little idea myself as to the veracity of this information, sometimes people become overly zealous and optimistic and embellish a tad.
I do know one thing though, if the Temple is to be re-built, no force on earth will stop it. I cannot see myself from a political point of view how this would occur, but then, If I was living in 1930, I would have had the same view about the re-establishment of Israel.
If I may dabble in some serious statements for a moment. If it DOES begin it will mean the destruction of the Al Aksah mosque and Dome of the Rock, which will inevitably signal the Islamic world into a mother of all Jihads.
The thing to look for next, would be a possible Islamic VICTORY.. yes.. thats what I said, followed by the deliberate defiling of the temple, and all hell breaking loose in the world. If these things happen, the best place for one to be, would be on ones knees in humble repentance

.. and the reason for that, would be that the prophecies about Armageddon, a false prophet (probably Islam in our view) and the return of the Messiah, will be not far off. By the way, Muslims believe very much in the return of Jesus to Judge the world. (sheep and goats)

BOAZ_David,

You made some good comments about my post. I was particularly pleased you felt my sense of morality was lacking. I was pleased because, as a supporter of Israel, you support a state which is one of the worst abusers of human rights on the planet. I don't want to define my sense of morality the same way as you.

You make another good point for me. You're right I didn't condemn the Arabs for firing missiles into Israel (which drew the fire that killed the girls). The difference is, because they target civilians, we call Hamas and Co terrorists. We all know that. But what about the Israelis? How is it that probably the most well trained and effective military (man for man) in the world can constantly kill children? How could you fire a tank shell at girls and not know it was going to blow them up? How is this not targeting civilians? How can you fire a missile from a helicopter gunship into some of the most densely populated areas in the world and not be targeting civilians? When the Israelis are happy to be called terrorists then I'll judge them according to the same standards as Hams.

You mentioned the propaganda war. This was nice. Let's see. Which side has the most lobbyists of any special interest group on Capital Hill? Which side employs 6 of the top PR firms in the US? Which group is highly literate, well organized, politicized, motivated (hysterical at times) and extremely well funded? If you guessed the Israeli lobby then you'd be correct.

Which side has no money, no influence in the US and can't even employ a 'government' spokesperson who speaks English properly? Mmmm. Let me see, the Palestinians??

You write “Are u suggesting Israel should not exist? You are long on analysis and short on real solution."

Are you suggesting I'm calling for the destruction of Israel? O oh, time to break out the hysterics. The only country in the Mid-East with nuclear and biological weapons (remember Sadaam DOESNT have any) is in mortal danger (again)!!

If the truth be known, your claim that I failed to say anything is wrong, the problem is your eyes and ears are closed. And in answer to your claim that I offer no solution, I can but offer a start. When Israelis stop kidding themselves about what they are doing in the occupied territories, then perhaps they will be able to make peace with their neighbors.