No Boaz, I prefer clear eyes, the big picture, and far horizons. And I like elephants, I don't want to eat them bit by bit...

Sayeret,

I haven't heard about any Jewish school in Australia being actually bombed.

Unless you can tell me of an actual example and how that means other Jewish schools are in danger (i.e. an active terrorist organisation in Australia with the intent and capability to attack), I won't see the need for security guards in Jewish schools.

Rather, I see the use of security guards in light of the continuing myth that Jews are targets and hence victims. Being victims is very useful to the Jewish cause because victims are usually seen as powerless. And that is how Jews would like to be seen. In reality the obverse is true. Jews are well educated, organised, politicised, and wealthy. They know how the levers of power work in this country and they're not afraid to use them.

Also, I haven't means to say that anti-Semitism doesn't exist at all, but that the reponse is out of proportion to the threat and that the threat is manipulated for political purposes.

Phil,

You'll be relieved to know I'm not the Green Left guy. In fact I can assure you I'm not a member of any left wing organisation. When I hear unions come out with loony ideas like today's 'women should have menstrual leave'(SMH) rubbish then I'm relieved I'm not even a union member.

Your second post heartened me but I can't say the same about your first.

You're right that all minority groups have some self-interest at heart. But where Jews differ is that their self-interest destabilises an entire region. Look at the US's latest ramblings on Iran's nuclear program. Iran could not possibly be a threat to the US. However as with Iraq, it is a threat to Israel. So Israel, as the only possor of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons in the region (and also a proven track record of attacking its neighbours) is allowed to keep them while Iran is being persecuted.

Talking about persecution; historically Jews WERE persecuted but that in no way excuses their persecuting another people now.

It was also very disappointing to hear you link discussion of Jewish power 'only 60 years after the holocaust' as playing to far right. I thought this thread has been exemplary because no one resorted to that accusation of last resort. Linking any discussion of Jewish power today to the holocaust and far right groups should be seen for what it is - a dishonest attempt to close down any discussion about Jewish power.

Having said that, I would have to return to your previous point about the Jewish lobby having some self interest at heart just like other lobbies. The Jewish lobby isn't just like another lobby because other lobbies aren't nearly as powerful. They haven't been in violation of UN resolutions for decades. They aren't able to disregard world opinion because they don't have control of US policy in their sphere of influence. In short Jewish power matters; Serbian power doesn't exist.

Moving on to your second post. It did give me heart to read that anti-Zionist views were heard. As Michael Burd seems to suggest, I also assumed it would be seen as the wrong forum for opposing views, which would of course mean there would be no forum, and no opposing views. It seems he was looking for a propaganda fest and didn't get one. You are to be congratulated.

Josh...
track record of attacking its neighbours ?????????
U just about lost any credibility right there.
Under WHAT circumstances did Israel attack Egypt and Syria and Jordan ?

Here's a small part of Israel's track record of attacking its neighbours

Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997

Sandgroper.
You appear to have picked out an instance which suited your purpose.
What u didn't do is give the bigger context.

http://www.ok.org/homemaker/pesach60/golan.html
"The Golan is a relatively small piece of land, but it is vital to Israel´s security. From 1948 until 1967, Syrian shells terrorized the Galilean valley below the Heights."

Now.. you could examine each 'incident' in an attempt to demonstrate "israeli culpability" and there would in each case be the 'other side of the coin' demonstrating the fuller picture.

The simple fact is, the Arab nations have less than zero interest in the existence of Israel, and accept it ONLY due to a power balance.
The Israeli's are aware of this, and you should be also. I fail to see why you would allow yourself to be influenced to become 'pro' or 'con' on the basis of a few isolated specific incidents.

But I suppose you hate yourself also, for the inherited guilt you SHOULD be feeling about the land you are living on which was taken by the same 'greed' from our Aboriginals by 'you and me' (in our ancestors) and if not by our own ancestors, we would easily find some connection with other ancestors who had been involved in similar things, it would just be a matter of looking.

You are trying to separate yourself from the stream of history of which you are an integral part, and attempting to place yourself on some artificial high moral ground that simply does not, by your own presuppositions about life, exist.

Personally, I feel we have to recognize that Israel will do whatever it takes to ensure its security, as will the Arabs. You should not see this in terms of 'moral right/wrong' but rather as survival.
(though, if you refer to God, I would accept a validity of right and wrong, otherwise its meaningless)

I would not assess Israel in any other terms than this. Same for the Palestinians/Arabs. My support for Israel is not support for any act of cruelty or killing. It is support for the 'existence' of Israel.
If it were possible for Israel to exist without any of the sad examples of human cruelty, I would be most happy.

When you condemn Israel you also condemn yourself or your ancestors.

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Matthew 7)