"The unfathomably horrific massacre that Hamas perpetrated against innocent Israelis offers an unprecedented opportunity to reach an Israeli-Palestinian peace which has eluded both sides for 75 years."

Funny way to reach peace, and an unbelievably stupid comment.

Hamas must be annihilated, but there will never be peace while Iran exists in its present form.

There will never be peace while the Jewish Settlers keep stealing land from the Palestinians aided and abetted by that warmonger Netanyahu.
David

Anti-Semitic bigotry.

Sorry, disagree. Hamas needs to be hunted down and eliminated to the last evil personified operative!

And those who sponsor, and support terrorists need to be treated with the same medicine.

Let's face it, until these individuals are eliminated with extreme prejudice, they will continue to fund and sponsor more of the same atrocities/killing sprees.

With that achieved, peace in the Middle East, in our time may have a chance.

Face facts dreamer, no other course is open to us or the world!
Alan B.

I agree that the theft of sovereign Palestinian land must also cease! No two ways about it!

Continually poking at a hornet's nest is not a recipe for peace! But rather a bum full of (ouch, ouch, scream, yell, whine, mummy, daddy) painful blisters.
Alan B.

Hope out of a crisis.

Let's give it a chance.

Meanwhile reading David Marr's book, Killing for Country, got me thinking about how the dispossessed Aboriginal warriors might spear a couple of white station hands and "invite" the white "settler" vigilantes to set out, and sometimes, wipe out the entire tribe - men, women, and children to defend their stolen land. The land then would be free from "terrorists", who often were merely doing the honourable thing to avenge abuses against their long-established sense of dignity.
Asking Israel to avoid killing civilians sounds hollow, when those killed by the bombs from the sky, are likely to be 99.9% civilians, as HAMAS warriors are likely to be waiting out of harm's way. Is there no lesson from the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto? Or just collateral damage, like the carpet bombing of Cambodia for which Kissinger has been "judged" to be a war criminal.

Seems like a thorough going assessment of the situation to me. I particularly liked the last paragraph re the role of the psychopath who now leads Israel.
Meanwhile, taking into account that all politicians lie, especially in times of war, what if the official narrative re what happened on Oct 7th is false. Check out the essay on Scheer post titled October 7 Testimonies Reveal Israels Military Shelling Israeli Citizens with Tanks Missiles - and the new essay by Chris Hedges too.

What a load of crock.

Clowns such as this author, simply mouthing the US Democrat Administrations Anti-Israel propaganda line attempt to smother the Administrations abysmal failure of Obamas disastrous
JCPOA with Iran which this author fails once to mention.

This current Israeli catastrophe is directly and completely a cause of US ineptitude with ME foreign policy.
His attack on Netanyahu with its leftward rant, totally misses the mark in outlining the impossible mission with which Netanyahu was presented with. It also fails in the cause of truth to mention the direct US contributions towards funding a destabilisation program designed to undermine the legitimately and Democratically elected government of Israel in its attempts to force Israel into the suicide mission of rolling over to US demands to accomodate outcomes of the JCPOA, in particular, living with an Nuclear armed Iran.

The US presence can’t be trusted to assist Israel, and is more commonly seen as a force to Hog-Tie and limit Israeli response in Gaza against its own better judgement.

With friends like the US, who needs enemies.

An excellent analysis of the situation, as far as the present goes, but mixed with impossible wishful thinking for the future.

Netanyahu is finished. I now almost take pity on that little man, who is now practically deposed but is still formally displayed on Israel's prime-minister's throne, only because being seen to change horses during a war can boost the enemy's morale.

But unlike him, the West-Bank's settlers are not deposed.
They are many, they have too many supporters, they are armed, trained and strong, much stronger than Hamas.
Even if Israel is willing to give up the West Bank in a peace deal,
who could possibly dare to try evicting the Jewish fundamentalist settlers from their homes?
Not anybody I know.

- Not the Israeli army. It tried in the past to remove just one illegal settlement, and failed. The settlers, being Israelis, can come and go within Israel as they please, so they told the brigadier that came to remove them: "We know your family, we know exactly where your child's kindergarten is and the exact route from your home to that kindergarten." - the evacuation was cancelled!

- Not even the American army can, because any American president would tremble at the prospect of violent clashes with their own Christian fundamentalists.

So I am pessimistic. I am afraid that is not possible.

What Israel can still do, is to leave the West Bank unilaterally, without any agreement, just order the army to march out and leave the settlers there to their own devices. What then ensues between the settlers and the local Arabs, I don't know and I don't even want to know: all I care is just that Israel will finally be out of that cursed territory.

Yuyutsu

You exhibit breathtaking naivety.

Here is a question for you out of left field; why are fifteen thousand Australians currently residing in Lebanon, ignoring the Australian Governments call to leave Lebanon for their own safety?

Answer: In their mind they’re not in danger.

Why?: The continuing US policy of appeasing Iran.

That policy includes removing the Democratically elected Netanyahu administration in Israel, and replacing it with an administration of compliant Toadies who will toe the US suicidal line of Iranian appeasement.
We are seeing the results of appeasement strategies playing out in Israel now

Dear Dan,

First you claim (without explaining) that I am so naive, then the next moment you treat me like your oracle who am able to answer all your questions, including some which I never thought about...

This is a helpful commentary on the current situation. It gives a wider context than is presented in the 24/7 brief media glimpses of the situation in the Middle East. Given Dr Alon Ben-Meir's long term study of the Middle East region, his setting out a post-Gaza scenario for a two state solution deserves further study.

Yuyutsu

Not like you to retreat.

Well I think life in Lebanon is much more comfortable than life in Israel; and that is worth considering!

"Hamas must be annihilated, but there will never be peace while Iran exists in its present form."

The US is in no position to fight a war with Iran.
They will need to put 1 million troops together to fight that war.
Last year they were 15,000 men short of a 60,000 man troop enlistment target.

Army misses recruiting goal by 15,000 soldiers
http://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/10/02/army-misses-recruiting-goal-by-15000-soldiers/

>>According to officials, the Marine Corps, which usually goes into each fiscal year with as much as 50% of its recruiting goal already locked in, has only a bit more than 30%. And the Air Force and the Navy will only have about 10% of their goals as they start the new fiscal year. The Air Force usually has about 25%. Officials spoke on condition of anonymity to provide details on the recruiting totals that have not yet been released.

“In the Army’s most challenging recruiting year since the start of the all-volunteer force, we will only achieve 75% of our fiscal year 22 recruiting goal,” Army Secretary Christine Wormuth said in a statement to The Associated Press. “The Army will maintain its readiness and meet all our national security requirements. If recruiting challenges persist, we will draw on the Guard and Reserve to augment active-duty forces, and may need to trim our force structure.”

Officials said the Army brought in about 45,000 soldiers during the fiscal year that ended Friday. The goal was 60,000.<<

Aboriginals who were prevented from roaming their familiar area did retaliate & who could blame them.
Ever since, the descendants of the settlers have bent ar.e over backwards to compensate the Aborigine Aboriginals whilst in most other countries the Aboriginals did not receive such compensation.
When would you say enough compensation has been provided apart from the ongoing housing, health, welfare, education royalties etc etc ?
A lot of land has been handed back to the traditional occupants yet the payments have not lessened. In fact, more is being demanded.
The pendulum has swung all the way, time for the Aborigines to come to a conclusion if they want to revert to basic existence or continue to progress to an existence that includes responsibility. Most will favour modern commodities ! The Voice didn't ask that !

Back to the topic of this thread, it has long been said that the Israel/Palestine will never end even if one side is gone !

The majority of Israelies and Palestinians are mere pawns in a geopolitical and local power struggle. The USA wants to curb the power of Iran, it suits Iran to foster local conflict. Within Palestine we find a power struggle that Hamas seeks to exploit. In Israel we have prime minister who holds on to power by bringing together a rag tag of minor parties with the promise of driving the Palestinians out. It is hard to see that there can be a possible solution when the parties driving the conflict have so little regard for the innocent bystanders who just want to get on with their lives.

How about a UN-brokered mandated two-state solution?

Got to give this hellhole a new start, with substance: maintaining regional integrity and politically non-partisan.

Perhaps something like what the UN did with East Timor 20 years ago, but with a lot more military muscle this time.

Dear Chek,

«How about a UN-brokered mandated two-state solution?»

That would be wonderful: Israel could benefit so much if the international community forces it to withdraw from the territories it occupied in 1967. I support that.

But what do you do when the other side does not want a state of their own?
What can you do and how can you have two states when their claim to want a separate state was never sincere but only a component in an anti-Israel propaganda campaign?

In my understanding, the reverse is the case.
My knowledge is patchy at best, though. Very happy to be enlightened where necessary.
As I recall one Israeli PM was assassinated after he brokered some settlement with the Palestinians; and the current crooked fellow has (indirectly) funded HAMAS for years - to divide and rule forever over an open-air prison whose supply of essentials has to be approved by the Israeli blockade for the last 16 years.
Remember how the Jews, in the end, desperately and disastrously rose up against the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto.
Sometimes the oppressed will rise up and die in the process.

I remember as a kid many decades ago hearing & reading about this conflict & it's still going on ! It's the longest sad saga I know of !

Dear Chek,

«In my understanding, the reverse is the case.»

The reverse of what?
Is this a reply to my previous post?

You mentioned facts which are essentially correct, but some are out of context.

«As I recall one Israeli PM was assassinated after he brokered some settlement with the Palestinians»

Correct, that was Yitzhak Rabin.

«and the current crooked fellow has (indirectly) funded HAMAS for years - to divide and rule forever»

So far correct. I don't sympathise with that felon.

«over an open-air prison whose supply of essentials has to be approved by the Israeli blockade for the last 16 years.»

That indeed was the end result, but turning Gaza into a prison was not intentional. Israel's [naive] assumption was that Gaza will be peaceful, especially once Israel withdrew from it completely as a gesture of goodwill. Initially Gazans used to work in Israel and received all goods from Israel without any problem, but as the terror of Hamas increased, Israel was forced to close them in and limit their supplies because any metal they got turned into weapons that were used against Israel and every bit of concrete was used to dig attack tunnels.

«Remember how the Jews, in the end, desperately and disastrously rose up against the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto.»

Sure, but the Nazis did not exterminate the Jews because the Jews previously attacked them. Unlike Hamas, the European Jews did nothing wrong to deserve this.

«Sometimes the oppressed will rise up and die in the process.»

Sure, but the European Jews did nothing to invite their own oppression, while Hamas did everything it could to bring oppression, both its own and Israel's, unto the common people it ruled over and was supposed to cherish.

I want these people to be free and peaceful again, and that cannot happen until Hamas is gone.

Is HAMAS the torturous product of the dispossession and occupation of their land, a moral failure that the dying British Empire hastily committed, as it did in India with their two religious camps?

HAMAS is now planned to be wiped off the face of Palestine, with American support of course, but will its poisoned roots give forth new shoots in another era?

Incomplete genocides will leave problems for future generations. Just look at our black history in Oz.

You may care to read Anthony Lowenstein's recent book, The Palestine Laboratory.

Evil breeds evil

Dear Chek,

Israel has no delusions that once Hamas is gone there will be peace forever. Israel only speaks about 5-10 years of quiet and I think that is a realistic target.

It goes on and on;
The Jews lived on that land as Jews for a few thousand years.
The Arabs invaded in 634 to 637 when they took Jerusalem and made the
Christian's there an offer they could not refuse. It seems that their
policy was to expel the Jews.
As many Arabs settled there and Islamist believe that land once
occupied by moslems remains Islamic land forever.
Many have tried to exspell the Jews from that land including the Romans under Augustus.

So you can see the root cause of this problem.
For the moslems to accept a divided country with the Jews is contrary
to Islamic belief and therefore forbidden.

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then
kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (2:191)

Make war on the infidels living in your neighbourhood. (9:123)
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will
consider you to be one of them. (5:51)

and so on and on;
You can see what drives Iran's nuclear project. A quick solution but
a double edged sword.
All these people advocating a two state solution have no hope.
It is not acceptable as one side says the other must go or die.

Bezza,

Give your anti-Muslim rants a rest.

The skin on that drum is wearing thin.

As Tor Hundloe in his book, "From Buddha to
Bono," points out:

" The vast majority of modern mainstream Christians, Jews,
and Muslims, seek a better life on earth, rather than
seeking it in heaven. Modern people with normal family
and social relationships, and at least partially rational
view of how the world works, are not waiting for Armageddon,
or a future coming of a saviour. Nor are they waiting for
anything else that exercises the theological minds of
fundamentalists or extremists."

Be they Christians, Jews, or Muslims.

As Hundloe says:

"We must keep in mind that religiously minded modern
person is not a "card-carrying" fundamentalist. The
latter are a tiny minority. Of whatever faith, a
psychologist would be likely to declare them to be of
unsound mind."

Your consistent anti-Muslim rants are beginning to be
disturbing. They need to stop.

Strange post Foxy. Someone points out what the fundamental problem
is all about and you reply "stop the rant".
Just saying that won't stop the fanatics. Some think just saying nice
words will make a difference.
It hasn't made the slightest difference in the last 1400 years.
Of course I am well aware that many moslems hate what is going on.
They have even formed an association to try and change the message.
I do not know the history of that association but such organisations
probably go back hundreds of years.

Actually your attitude is dangerous as it leads too many to think
just dividing the land is THE solution.
You preach a gently gently way out of this mess but it has been going
on for over a thousand years and too many people think jaw jaw will
fix it all in the next couple of years.
It won't and I think only religious people can talk to those religious
people who need to have a revelation and a way out.
Sorry you are upset Foxy, but someone has to say it out loud.

Why are you so critical only of Muslims?
And you have to realize they don't all
follow their religion in exactly the same way.
As neither do Christians, or Jews.

As I keep repeating - there are extremists and
fundamentalists in all religions.

As far as the Israel-Palestinian conflict is
concerned? I don't think that anyone will deny
that Israelis has rights. At the same time - so
do the Palestinians.

However, what Israel is doing now in an
indiscriminate way is simply not acceptable.
Bombing refugee camps, bombing ambulances,
schools, hospitals, killing thousands of
innocent men, women, and children in violation
of international law. This has got to stop.

The United States provides $3.8 billion dollars every
year to Israel. Including military support. US
President Joe Biden wants to give them even more.

Israel is already a super military power in the region.

Where are American values?
What does the civilized world stand for?

Bezza, they can't bomb their way to peace.
They also need to stop what they've been doing to the
Palestinians for decades. It's the Palestinians who
are a besieged people.

An eye for an eye - won't only make the whole world
blind. It will make it dead.

Rabbi and Editor of Tikkun Magazine -
Michael Lerner said:

"If a Jew today goes into any synagogue in the
United States or around the world and says -
"I don't believe in God or Torah and I don't
follow the commandments, most will welcome you
in and urge you to become involved."

But say, "I don't support the state of Israel";
and you are likely to be labelled as a
"self-hating Jew" or anti-Semite, scorned and
dismissed."

An Israeli Jew summed it up this way:

"We need to work towards a shared future where
we do not harm each other. We need to create a
culture of peace. Jewish supremacy will not
achieve that.

Foxy, everything you say is reasonable and has been said thousands of
times but it has made zero difference.
I wonder if you saw the Imman on tv last night who said,
"It is Israel today and Spain next!".

What do you think he meant by that ?
Note Spain was occupied by the Moslems for I think 600 years.
Might be less might be more, so Spain is Islamic land forever.
Should the Spanish submit ?
Perhaps, a cease fire will help come the time !

There are a variety of opinions from both sides
of this conflict.

What bothers me is that defending the Zionist
government in Israel as having all the rights
and any criticism as anti-Semitism leaves
Israel free to entrench its own version of a
one-state solution which denies millions of
Palestinians basic rights.

Silencing Palestinians is not a particular
effective way to fight rising antiSemitism.
It undermines the moral basis of the conflict.

AntiSemitism is not wrong because it is wrong
to denigrate and dehumanize Jews.

AntiSemitism is wrong because it is wrong to
denigrate and dehumanize anyone.

And Palestinians are also Semites.

Which makes ultimately that any efforts to
fight antiSemitism that contributes to the
denigration and dehumanization of Palestinians is
no fight against antiSemitism at all.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Over
2 million people who live in Gaza, over half of
whom are children need our sympathy as well.

Humanitarian corridors must be established immediately.
The siege must end. And power be restored so hospitals
can be more than graveyards.

This should concern us more - than what some body says
on television.

Aaahh, I see, I see Foxy !
You think it is a racial war !
FYI it is a religious war !
They seem to be wars of the worse kind.

Note the wars of Islam against India.
They killed about 8 million Hindus at one time.
Some think Pakistan & India should bury the hatchet !

Don't think it is all over.
MAD is the keyword there.

Dear Bezza,

There is nothing religious about this war - or do you really believe that God ordained it?

Tyrants and psychopaths cite "religion" because it is a convenient excuse. Don't you too believe their lies.

This is not a war.
Call it as it is.
It's an exercise in shooting Palestinian fish in a barrel.
The Nazi Germans did it to the Jews and now the Israeli Jews are doing it to the Palestinians.
The Germans did it with gas ovens and the Israelis are doing it with bombs and bullets.
The result is the same, dead people who had dreams of living.

Don't try to justify the current situation on the basis cultural or religious grounds because it's so much codswallop.
The Israelis just didn't know when to stop the thuggery.
No different to the Nazi Germans.
To the Jewish survivors of 6 years of persecution and killing it became known as the Holocaust.
So what will the Palestinians call it after enduring 60 years of killing and persecution.?
Or does everyone think it's just going to fade away?

Dear Delivery,

«and now the Israeli Jews are doing it to the Palestinians.»

Yes, Israel is now setting free some 2 million hostages of them - but why only the Jews?

ALL Israelis - Jews, Druze, Muslims, whatever, they all, regardless of faith or ethnicity, deserve equal credit for their good work and bravery in defending their homes, finishing off their brutal common enemy - while also freeing its miserable hostages!

«The result is the same, dead people who had dreams of living.»

Better than live people who dream of dying.

It is very sad to see some of the hostages killed, but why not look at the full half-cup instead: indeed some Gazans won't make it through the release efforts, but the majority will make it through to the other end and will end up for the first time in their lives free of the horrific tyranny of Hamas. Once Hamas is no more, they will be able to open a new and peaceful page where they can have all the freedom and prosperity, dignity and respect they ever dreamt of.

Yuyutsu, you are dreaming. Hamas is an ideology. Just as Zionism is. While the illegitimate state (in the eyes of Hamas) of Israel exists, so will Hamas exist. The modern generation doesn't know that Israel only came into existence because of the doings of the Zionist terrorists. Those same Zionists support the Jewish settlers on the West Bank.

The scourge of Palestine isn't Hamas, it is Zionism as embodied by Netanyahu and his followers.

David

Dear David,

Zionism is not embodied by Netanyahu, a corrupt hedonist, a coward, a small bad-mouthed politician whose only care in the world is to avoid jail and personal bankruptcy; nor is Zionism embodied by his wife of expensive tastes, nor by his sons who avoid military service during Israel's bitterest time, nor by his Nazi coalition partners and others who belong in the Middle Ages.

Zionism was never a single ideology, it always encompassed many divergent streams and means completely different things for different Jews, Israelis and Christians. For many Israelis, "Zionist" in common speech is simply a synonym for "a good citizen, one who cares for his neighbours, one who volunteers, who donates blood, etc.".

While you refer to "Those same Zionists support the Jewish settlers on the West Bank", there are about as many Zionists in Israel who abhor these settlers. There are also non-Jewish, Druze and Muslim, Israelis who consider themselves Zionists and are presently risking and sacrificing their lives and limbs for Israel's survival, in Gaza as well as along Israel's northern border.

Therefore, before we can have any productive discussion on the matter, would you care to define what you see as 'Zionist', so we can talk about the same thing?

The same could have been said of Hitler.
Today the term Zionist is a catch phrase under which all manner of disrespect to mankind can be hidden.

Yuyutsu said;There is nothing religious about this war - or do you
really believe that God ordained it?

You misunderstand me, what I am saying is that it does not matter what
I believe, but it does matter what the aggressor (the Islamists)
believe. They believe that it is their religious
duty to get rid of the Jews, all of them.
They are now restating it from their pulpits in Australia.
It is after all in the Koran. End of argument !

Unless some religious person can convince them that they are in
theological error this will go on till the last moslem is dead !
Sorry to say it but I think we are all wasting our time debating this
subject.

Dear Bezza,

«They believe that it is their religious
duty to get rid of the Jews, all of them.»

I don't believe even that.
I don't think Hamas even thinks or cares about God (or Allah for that matter),
they just use God's name and the Quran in vain for their own selfish pleasure.

«Unless some religious person can convince them that they are in
theological error»

I think that they don't need to be convinced because they already know that what they claim is theologically false.
But they never cared about theology in the first place,
nor would they care to listen to religious persons.

They believe in no God, gods, prophets or scripture.
They just want what they want, which is to kill and instil terror all around them.
And when they think they can sell you stories that falsely claim as if they believe in anything, then that's just what they do.

Tear that religious mask off their face!