Ukraine is noted for its non-acceptance of immorality through a National attachment to the Orthodox Church.
Ukrainian women conform to a traditional role which is refreshing.
In the most part, they are practicing Christians who realise the historic position of the role of women in society.

Australians were similarly focused in the past. Interesting that is!

Dan.

Ukraine is culturally different and has more traditional family relationships. Where male/female roles follow more traditional role models.

It's not for us to say that's wrong, given the way our society has emasculated men. For mine and speaking as a mere male, I prefer the traditional roles in male female relationships.

As the son of a single (very strong) mum that does not make me a wife beater nor less valuing the female opinion or able to consult on all decisions that affect the family or family finances or equality.

That said, I disagree with the Author's view/opinion on the Ukraine.

Rather than heap critigue, our role needs to be as supportive as possible! And just keep our less than helpful opinions to ourselves! This is not the time for that C.R.A.P.
Alan B.

Good point about culture and tradition, Dan and Alan, although I agreed with Ms. Arndt in a mini review of her article in The Forum; again today, I have expressed my opinion in the The Forum that women are not suited to politics or military duties, among a few other activities, some of them want to have a go at. However, I am not sure that young Ukraine women are much different from Western ones these days, and hypocrisy is hypocrisy anywhere.

As far as I know women who can are fighting in the Ukraine.
as for women's traditional roles? These days they are more
flexible. There are women in the armed forces, in politics,
in police forces, as tradies, in mining, and so on. The
same as there are men - ballet dancers, nurses, chefs,
sex workers, and house husbands staying at hoime looking
after the kids, and cleaning. The macho John Wayne male
image is so yesterday.

While the war was just a rumour, there were one or two middle-aged women in fatigues, waving weapons around and talking tough, even though the weapons had that plastic look of replicas. At the time, I could not believe that civilians would be issued with spotless, new-looking weapons.

Since the balloon went up, all the women have been seen heading for the trains, men being the only people under arms . I think the ladies might have been actors like their president, whom I believe was a comedian in real life.

The real crime here, as apparently pointed out by an unnamed Newcastle law professor, is banning men from leaving Ukraine and in effect conscripting them to fight.

All people who wished to leave, both men and women, should have been allowed to. Many Ukrainians are ethnic Russians and would not have wanted to kill Russian soldiers. Many of them would understand the reason behind Putin's actions and would be more than happy to see the rightwing extremists infesting their country being rooted out. I doubt they'd be sorry either to see the ubiquitous military infrastructure and weaponry paid for by the US and NATO being reduced to rubble.

Zelenskyy had no right to force these men, or anyone else for that matter, into becoming killers. This is a crime that has attracted little attention in Western media and as such has been condoned.

Bronwyn. Your pro Russian article tells all we need to know about you and your loyalties. As for pro Russian Ukrainians being forced to shoot Russians. Able like all soldiers able to aim high! Or not, given many are Ukrainian and they see the Russians as invaders with no real reason to be killing fellow Ukrainians! Or butchering babies!

Twist any way you like, nobody can justify this attack on a peaceful neighbour! And given the number of countries that border Russia that are also NATO members! The pretext for the attack has no merit! And never ever threatened Russia!

NATO has nothing but a defense posture and Putin knew it! Moreover, I stand by my earlier comments about culture and tradition! And the emasculation of western "men"!
Alan B.

Bronwyn,

The worst crime in the Ukraine is the confinement and murdering of civilian populations. Next on the list is war criminal Putin perpetrating a badly supported and poorly executed invasion. The Russian army is mostly stuck on the roads, with insecure communication (the army has to use mobile phones to talk, allowing the Ukranians to target them) and starved of supplies. They are largely incapable of utilising their forces and are vulnerable to the weapons now reaching the Ukranians. Access to new weapons like Switchblade drones will allow more efficient targeting of Russian artillery. Perhaps twenty percent of the invading force has been inactivated and a larger percentage is likely trapped.

Far from being drug addicted gay nazis, the Ukranians are showing themselves to to be a conservative nation of intelligent people who are highly motivated to maintain their democracy. Russia needs to negotiate an escape for it's invading force in order to avoid another humanitarian disaster. Putin will not do well out of this.

As for Russia being vulnerable, they have thousands of icbms targeting the west, which they regularly threaten to use.

Mutually assured destruction has dampened hostilities for many decades. Most nations seek to improve living standards through trade and development. Russia is an anachronistic dictatorship replete with a propaganda machine spouting idiocies such as the degenerate west bringing the gay mardi gras parade to the Ukraine.

Your off your head Fester!

Dan

Hi Dan. Could you be more specific please? The Russian army is suffering large casualties and loss of equipment. Their supply logistics are being effectively targeted. The Russian troops are cold, hungry, and low on fuel and ammunition. Ukranian citizens are being murdered by the Russian army. The situation in the Ukraine is sad and distressing. Why am I "off my head" for making such observations?

You would be off your head if you believed the Russian controlled media. The Russian army needs to get the hell out. It will get worse for them. Ukranian forces around Kiev have better weapons and are learning. With Kiev less vulnerable, southern Ukranian forces are receiving more equipment.

https://www.advocate.com/world/2022/3/07/pride-parades-caused-russia-ukraine-war-says-russian-church-leader

I see the word 'propaganda' mentioned. The stories about how poorly Russia is faring could be just that. I don't know. Like most people, all I see on the nightly news is Ukraine being reduced to rubble; Ukrainians being killed; Ukrainians running. I find hard to believe that the Russian war machine is in such dire straits, but who knows? What's is said about truth in war!

From Bronwyn.."The real crime here is banning men from leaving Ukraine and in effect conscripting them to fight."

Those who continue to just regurgitate Russian propaganda have to do so with one eye firmly closed. OMG Ukraine is using 'conscripts'. Yet approximately 30% of the Russian army is conscripts many of whom didn't want to fight their 'brothers'. This explains why morale in the Russian forces appears to be so low and why the number of desertions and surrendering surprisingly high for an army which, if not quite winning, hasn't suffered any significant defeats.

But the Bronwyn's of the world will decry Ukrainian conscripts while ignoring Russian ones.

BTW, is there any evidence that the Ukrainian 'conscripts' are unhappy about fighting for their homeland?

Speaking of turning a blind-eye...Bronwyn talks here and in other threads about the "the rightwing extremists infesting their country[Ukraine]". Again what gets ignored is that roughly 50% of all identified neo-Nazis world-wide reside in Russia under the protective gaze of Putin and his cohorts. http://borgenproject.org/neo-nazis-russia/ .

Putin has sent armed mercenaries into Ukraine specifically to 'get' Zelinsky. The main group is called the Wagner Group. Apparently the group was destroyed by Ukrainian forces and their leadership is none to happy with Putin for sending them into an ambush. What is the Wagner Group? It is a network of mercenaries used by Putin henchmen to enforce their will in places like Syria and Africa while keeping his hands clean. Oh, and they are Nazis. They use the swastika, have Nazi tattoos as group identifiers and call themselves after Hitler's favourite composer.

So Putin wants to de-nazify Ukraine by sending in Nazis to capture/kill the Jewish leader of Ukraine. If it wasn't for the fact that people like Bronwyn fall for this rubbish, it'd be funny.

Thanks Bettina Arndt for your article. I will read it in more detail later but looks good so far. I came across some material wiki article about your father recently- interesting. Sad to hear he died on the way to his friends funeral- but he died doing something he enjoyed. If I can die the same... Kudos.

Well thank you fester:

You highlighted the problem for the majority in the West with little to no say in political outcomes in their home Country.

As I’ve said before here, we in Australia will be subjected to another Tsunami of immigrants who will sit their useless arses in our public housing across the Country, bleating to the likes of the ABC etc, of their downtrodden lives while their mouths shine with newly minted teeth financed from the Social Welfare budgets as our own pensioners cope with market forces for scarce housing resources and acceptable health care.

It’s not acceptable to dump fagots and their supporters onto our welfare system while we the locals do without.
Charity begins at home is a correct call for obvious reasons.

As I’ve said before, I don’t give a tinkers damn about Ukraine and the Russians business model of their own liking. It’s none of my business.
But what is my business, is bleating sniveling Politicians handing out welfare services stolen from the deserving and handed to the undeserving in my own Country as a priority over and above persecuted fagots that refuse to toe the line in their own Country.

*…Russia is notorious for its persecution of LGBTQ+ people. Russia infamously adopted a “gay propaganda” law in 2013, banning any mention of LGBTQ+ issues in venues accessible to minors. In recent years, Chechnya, a semi-autonomous region of Russia, has systematically persecuted LGBTQ+ people, especially gay men, jailing and torturing them, and outing them to intolerant family members, which puts them at risk of further violence. Some have been killed, and others have fled abroad...*

After reading this though, I’m beginning to warm to the issue of persecution achieving desirable aims of morality.
I’ve long ago noted Islamists take a similar view which I support.

Dan

Alan Sanders a highly credentialled geneticist and his team have discovered in peer reviewed research that there are at least 2 gay genes and probably 3 more. And proves what I've always said that being gay is not something some folks choose, but something like being born left handed, a natural abberation in the human species.

Simply put, to target folk for being born different, is no different to the Nazis targeting Jewry for being born different! Believing the world is flat with a profound belief never ever made it flat any more than believing gay folk choose to be gay is true!

But folk with brainwashed from birth, belief choose to be incredibly ignorant and the only element of choice in this debate!

Killing someone on the grounds they are born different is still murder and those guilty of the crime of willful murder are hellbound! No two ways about it!
Alan B.

I wonder who paid, & how much for that "research" result Alan

Obviously the Byzantine Christians are still capable of telling the truth as it is and should be, shame about the brother Romans.

Dan

Alan B.

<< And given the number of countries that border Russia that are also NATO members! The pretext for the attack has no merit! And never ever threatened Russia! NATO has nothing but a defense posture and Putin knew it! >>

NATO’s raison d’être is to contain Russia. Led by the US, NATO has recruited every former Communist Bloc nation it possibly could. This is the reason we had a coup in Ukraine and a colour revolution in Belarus. The US will not rest until it has co-opted these two countries into NATO and made Russia’s containment complete. The former Soviet countries who've joined NATO have all been forced to take out huge loans they can't afford to spend up big on US weaponry. Poland for example has just signed up to $6 billion worth of US military equipment.

After the break-up of the Soviet Union, Russia requested to join NATO. Its request was rejected and the promises made to it that NATO would not move eastward have been continuously broken. Missile bases in Romania and Poland a few hundred kilometres from the Russian border are already a serious threat to Russia’s security. If Ukraine and Belarus were to join NATO, its military machine would sit right on Russia’s border. Imagine the US acquiescing to having Russian military bases even remotely near its borders. It wouldn’t stand for it. What gives the US the right to do this to Russia?

NATO's claim to be a purely defensive alliance is a lie. Russia has not threatened NATO countries. Russia has tried patiently for three decades now to negotiate treaties with NATO in order to achieve equal security for both Russia and the rest of Europe. It's been deceived and its offers ignored or rejected. And as it's refused to engage in good faith negotiations, NATO has all the while moved its military infrastructure ever closer to Russia’s borders.

Russia has every right to expect that Ukraine remain neutral territory. It is sad to see but not surprising that after years of constant provocation it has now resorted to military force.

Your off your head Fester!
diver dan,
You wouldn't say that if you knew what's actually going on !

diver dan,

What is happening there with that invasion is just too awful but you shouldn't dismiss it simply as "pro Russian" when people are trying to tell you why this terrible situation arose.

mhaze

<< approximately 30% of the Russian army is conscripts >>

Yes, Russian men are conscripted for twelve months. And yes, around a third of the entire Russian defence force does consist of conscripts, but that doesn’t mean the forces sent to Ukraine comprised that same percentage. Putin had in fact instructed that no conscripts were to be sent to Ukraine, but yes, apparently some were, 'almost all’ of whom have since been recalled.

<< Bronwyn talks here and in other threads about the "the rightwing extremists infesting their country[Ukraine]". Again what gets ignored is that roughly 50% of all identified neo-Nazis world-wide reside in Russia under the protective gaze of Putin and his cohorts. http://borgenproject.org/neo-nazis-russia >>

Pleased to see you’ve finally produced some evidence to support your claim. A single source is not substantive proof, but it is better than your previous effort. There's no link provided and when I Googled ‘There are an estimated 50,000-70,000 Neo-Nazis in Russia according to an ABC News report’, nothing came up, apart from the article you’d quoted. So really, I’m still far from convinced. Besides, an estimated 50 000 from an overall population of more than 145 million is around 0.003%. Australia’s or America's neo-Nazi presence is probably a similar percentage.

And where’s your evidence that 50% of the world’s neo-nazis reside in Russia?

As for my claims regarding the neo-Nazi presence in Ukraine, I can definitely provide multiple substantive sources.

<< Putin has sent armed mercenaries into Ukraine specifically to 'get' Zelinsky. >>

No, I don’t agree with the use of private mercenaries, whether Russian or American. I’d need to see some reliable evidence though if I’m to be convinced that Putin sent in private mercenaries to take out Zelenskyy. Killing Zelenskyy has never been a stated priority. Why else would he be so brazenly staging his many photo ops? He knows full well he's not a high priority target.

<< Oh, and they are Nazis. >>

Well, some individuals might be. I doubt the group as a whole is a fully-fledged Nazi outfit. Again, I’d need to see some evidence.

Individual

Says fester..
*…Russia is an anachronistic dictatorship replete with a propaganda machine spouting idiocies such as the degenerate west bringing the gay mardi gras parade to the Ukraine…*

That is not a simple statement from a propaganda machine; it’s the truth: The heart of the degeneracy of the West is it’s moral collapse, and the token of its moral collapse is the rainbow flag ideology which is actually a terrorist unit deliberately let loose on our society by our own Political establishment, (which I don’t support).

I think the people in the West who support the Russians, supported Trump for the same reasons. But my personal interests don’t extend into taking sides in foreign wars.

Dan

Dan,

I think the ideological war between commies and the west has been one of being pressed into a mold or being able to determine your own shape. That we can all express ourselves freely here I see as a triumph of democracy, not a sign of its degeneration. I find Bronwyn's commentary almost caricatured and comical. Arnold Schwarzenegger gave a wonderful counter to Putin's efforts to instill paranoia and xenophobia in Russian citizens. It is absurd to think that a country with thousands of nukes targeting the west is in any danger of invasion.

The situation in the Ukraine is a logistical battle now, not an ideological one. Some are suggesting that Putin is finished if the invasion fails. Keeping supplies up to the Ukranian forces will ensure that it will fail. The use of hypersonic missiles by Russia would suggest that they are running low on inventory.

Festering

<< I find Bronwyn's commentary almost caricatured and comical. >>

How about you start applying some intellectual rigour and rationally analyse and refute my arguments. Any fool can throw around patronizing insult.

From Bronwyn…“Yes, Russian men are conscripted for twelve months. “

Good. That was my point. Somehow you’ve convinced yourself that conscription in Russia is okey-dokey but conscription in Ukraine is a crime. I won’t even try to unravel that ‘logic’.

“Pleased to see you’ve finally produced some evidence to support your claim.”
This from the girl that hasn’t offered any support for her increasingly daffy claims.

“A single source is not substantive proof,”
Well its more than you’ve offered.

“As for my claims regarding the neo-Nazi presence in Ukraine, I can definitely provide multiple substantive sources.”
Since I’ve never disputed that, such sources might be superfluous. What I have shown however is that the Ukrainian neo-Nazis have very little influence whereas the Russia neo-Nazis for an integral part of Putin international enforcement team.

Since the days of the Comintern, there have always been those in the west who regurgitate Russian propaganda as though it were fact and dismiss objective fact as though it were propaganda. To be sure, their numbers progressively fell after the Hungarian revolt, the Prague suppression and especially after 1989. But obviously there are still some around who see international affairs only through Russian eyes.

I’m not anti-Russian on this. I see their point about wanting to only have secure slave buffer states on their border. But understanding their wants isn’t the same as thinking they have a right to that. This is all about power. Russia, and those who regurgitate its propaganda, think that what Russia wants is somehow their right while denying that Ukraine has any rights to what it wants.

From time immemorial, small states stuck between powerful states have had their desired ignored. Poland was invaded three times in the last century by Russia and has been eradicated four times in the last 400 years. They have resolved their problems for now by huddling under the protective US embrace. Simply put, Ukraine wants what Poland has and Putin wants to deny that to them. Rights don’t matter. The outcome will be decided on the outskirts of Kiev by tank and Javelin.

According to the Outsiders, Putin is in a load of trouble. And here's silly old me thinking I had been watching Ukraine getting the crap bombed out of it.

Lot's of dissidents, they claimed; then immediately put on a clip of a massive rally supporting Putin.

A young woman holds up a placard behind a newsreader, and we 'don't know what happened her', they tell us. Yes we do! She copped a monetary fine, and is as free as bird.

You can abhor what Russia is doing to Ukraine - as I do - without talking bullshite.

Really?

What a lazy effort to hitch an ideological bandwagon to a tragic situation.

How about even just waiting until the hostilities have ceased before rabbiting on with such pseudo-intellectualism and trite commentary.

In other words just give it a bloody rest Arndt.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if all the Western concerns about Ukraine back-fired before long.
Once many of those young women fleeing to the West shack up with blokes & the husbands back in Ukraine find out how much they're being conned, they might just change their views & start backing Russia.

Itellectual rigour? It's amazing how despots feel the need to give their crazed pseudo-scientific ravings a factual grounding. Alas, I feel it an argument of death and destruction. Putin will find it hard to hide all the corpses. Observing is like being next to a volcano that might blow. Very frightening.

mhaze

<< Somehow you’ve convinced yourself that conscription in Russia is okey-dokey but conscription in Ukraine is a crime. I won’t even try to unravel that ‘logic’. >>

I'm not in favour of any conscription, but there are definite differences between these two examples.

Russia's twelve months conscription to military training is able to be taken at any point between the ages of 18 and 27 and as such can be made to fit around work, study and family commitments. And for most, this training won't involve active service. It's a very different situation to that of being immediately conscripted into active killing, as those trying to leave Ukraine have been. These men are separated from their families; most are poorly trained and equipped and many have no animosity toward the soldiers they’re expected to kill.

So yes, I concede your point, and would never support any form of conscription, but there are definite differences between the two situations here. And to simplistically conflate them as you have is incorrect.

It was a stupid mistake to block men of ages 18-60 from leaving Ukraine.
Keeping people in, men or women, who don't want to be there is not only morally wrong, but also hurts the morale of the others.

Still, this is not the WORST crime.

No man is actually forced to carry weapons.
Even when forced to stay in the country, they can still bury themselves deep in bomb shelters, or go to rural areas, or they can keep essential services going, they can work in hospitals, treating the wounded, or in fire brigades, or even just bake bread and deliver food and medicines to the besieged elderly, even just take care of the pets that others left behind.

mhaze

<< What I have shown however is that the Ukrainian neo-Nazis have very little influence … >>

You are wrong. Neo-nazis have enormous influence in Ukraine - in the military, the government and throughout the country.

"Azov it should be noted is not some fringe group within the Ukraine, but is supported at the highest levels of the Ukrainian government.”

And that's only one group of many.

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2021/07/29/our-mission-is-to-lead-the-white-races-of-the-world-in-a-final-crusadeagainst-semite-led-untermenschen-subhumans

There are many international human rights groups who've called out the neo-Nazi presence in Ukraine, including Amnesty International, the UN Office of the High Commissioner on Human Rights, the Special Rapporteur on extra-judicial executions and the London-based Center for Countering Digital Hate.

There are neo-Nazi groups listed from many different countries, but there’s no mention of Russia. If 50% of the world’s neo-Nazis really did reside in Russia, as you claim, then I think it would have rated a mention.

https://www.thecitizen.co.tz/tanzania/oped/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-radical-ideologies-in-ukraine-3751460

<< … whereas the Russia neo-Nazis for an integral part of Putin international enforcement team. >>

You need to provide evidence that the Wagner Group is indeed a neo-Nazi group. I know the group exists and I know Putin has deployed them in various parts of the world and quite possibly in Ukraine too. I don’t like it, but then again, I don’t like the huge numbers of private mercenaries paid for by the West and what they get up to either, not to mention many in our own SAS. The world is awash with these testosterone-charged and often angry militants, many of whom don't seem answerable to anyone. It's a sad state of affairs, but one I'm afraid we're stuck with.

And BTW, the reason I’ve engaged with you in the past is that you were able to present an argument without resort to personal insult. If that changes, I won’t waste my time.

Hey

Who is Zelensky's deputy?

An armed woman bis the Leadership bunker in Kyiv.

Really, a true equal, and probably a parent too.

Alan b

Read Freuds article on Oedipus complex. You'll find it intellectually challenging.
His view is homosexuality is not inherited, it is learned behaviour ...like paedophillia.

hey

how many women in leadership positions in Russia?

How many Russian oligahs are women.

How many Russian women are in the military?

Is bindness inherited or learned behaviour?

This more a puff piece for Putin from the Anglosphere nativist libertarian right, masquerading as men's rights?

'One of the few feminist contributions to this discussion that I have come across was an article from Daily Mail columnist Amanda Platell...'

Amanda Platell, feminist, since when?

Arndt has form in promoting confected sociocultural issues e.g. 'freedom of speech' on campus for legacy media content/agitprop to help develop 'conservative' voter alliance of ageing nativist white men and women, to help pass unpalatable economic policies and avoid environmental constraints on fossil fuels; strong whiff of Koch Network influence?

Bronwyn,

In my travels through this issue, I came across an extremely comprehensive survey done in 2019.
http://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/legacy/iri.org/wysiwyg/2019_december_survey_of_residents_of_ukraine_ngproof_toct_03032020_comments_removed_final.pdf

In it you'll find such interesting results as:
* Svoboda, the party representing those you think have enormous influence in Ukraine, is supported by only about 1% of the voters.
* Even among those that live in eastern Ukraine, only 2% want to be reunited with Russia while a further 4% would like to become an independent country. 78% want to stay in Ukraine. (Remember, this is just those in the east. Elsewhere the desire for Donbass to remain in Ukraine is even higher.)

Lots of other interesting stuff.

Thank you mhaze. I appreciate your insight, but I also appreciate Bronwyn's motivation to argue her position. It has motivated me to find out a little more. A horrible subject, but interesting.

Interesting?

Not to the Ukrainian people.
Interesting is not a word that they would use.

Especially the little 3 year old lying in a hospital bed
with schrapnel in his gut and when asked - "Yuri how are
you?" Replied - "BOOM!"

Yes, I'm with Foxy....let's just emote about the horrors of war and not try to understand what's going on.

Bronwyn,

A nice summary here from the ABC about Nazis in Russia....
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-22/putins-fascists-russias-home-grown-neo-nazis/100927582

As to the previous post, although its very clear that the enforced absorption of the Donbass into Russia will be against the wishes of the locals and will probably result in a low level guerrilla resistance, that doesn't change the situation on the ground.

Here in the west, we always fret about fighting moral wars, trying to be on the right side of the issue and trying to see which side is fighting the moral war and therefore which is immoral.

But as historians like Hanson (and many others) have pointed out, the notion of a righteous war, or being morally on the correct side, is very much a western notion. While Russia fancies itself as being 'western', it has always seen war as an instrument or power. So whether they are on the right or wrong side morally doesn't occur to them. To be sure, they make the right noises to placate western opinion, but notions as to whether the 'liberated' people of Donbass want to be liberated, are not a high priority for them.

As I said, this is contest between T-34s and Javelin missiles, not a contest of morality.

mhaze,

Some people are not capable of understanding or showing
any empathy.

Interesting as in being next to a volcano Foxy. Terrifying yes, but you don't want to turn your back on it. I think it pointless trying to profile personalities from a few comments. That is what Putin and his ilk is all about.

I agree that Putin won't be swayed by diplomacy.

diplomacy.
Fester,
Yep, diplomatic jargon is all Ukraine got from the great West & now look what happened !
And, the weapons industry of the West is in full swing supplying Ukraine till it's on its knees !
The moment a foreign soldier steps onto Ukrainian soil all hell could break loose.
Right or wrong, staying part of Russia & rebuild the Soviet Union would by now be seen as a better option I'm guessing !
Looking back over the decades idealism has cost many, many lives & all under the guile of "Democracy".

Some say that Putin invaded Ukraine because he believed that Nato would not engage with the Russian army. Some say that the entire Russian army would be required to occupy Ukraine. The Ukranian army is operating effectively. It may be able to reduce the Russian forces to a point where they will have to withdraw. We are spectators of this horrible event individual, and so much is not visible.

mhaze

The survey you linked to was conducted by the International Republican Institute, an American organization whose sole purpose is to promote US-style democracy abroad. It was funded by USAID, another American organization pushing American interests overseas. These groups work closely with the CIA and the National Endowment for Democracy. They’re all about imposing American democracy on the rest of the world and they frequently use unscrupulous and illegal methods to do so. I would treat anything published by them with a great deal of skepticism.

The people of Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk weren’t included in the survey, so the results were obviously going to skew more towards the Ukrainian majority viewpoint than they might have otherwise.

Svoboda is only one small part of the neo-Nazi presence in Ukraine. I’ve explained this several times and posted good supporting evidence so I’m not repeating myself on that.

Russia has always supported Donetsk and Lugansk remaining in Ukraine. Russia, along with Ukraine, Germany and France, signed the Minsk agreements in 2014 and 2015. As such these regions were to remain part of Ukraine, while the people were to continue speaking Russian and to retain their cultural and economic ties to Russia. They were to operate very much like Quebec does in Canada. It is Ukraine, not Russia, which has broken the Minsk agreements.

The ABC article you linked to was written by someone who is so rabidly anti-Putin and whose work is so lacking in balance that I wouldn't consider it a credible source.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree!

You parrot the Russian line. A mouthpiece for war criminals, Bronwyn. I think the sanctions should remain until the perpetrators face justice. More should be done to pursue Putin's secret foreign assets, and his wife and kids should be expelled from Switzerland.

I would imagine that Patel will sign off on Assange's extradition now that it is well accepted that he has been funded by Russia as an agent of western destabilisation.

Bronwyn,

OK so it seems that no matter what evidence is offered, it will be rejected if it doesn't confirm prejudices.

It is true that the survey should be looked at with a sceptical eye, as should all such surveys. But this one is confirmed by the actual 2019 polls and that gives it added credence, or should. Equally, the way the Ukrainians are resisting the invasion, supports the results of the survey regarding their opposition to being incorporated into the neo-Russian empire.

This conflict is interesting- it's difficult to see what is really happening due to the link with geopolitics and ideological politics which cross borders. In this case I tend to take the Socrates defense.

But I remember the information that Armchair Critic put out about MH17 about 3 years ago- Bronwyn seems to be making very similar points here.

There are a number of stakeholders here- NATO, US, Russia, Putin, Ukraine, Crimea et al, US Democrat Party, China, US Republican Party, Biden, Trump, US Left Establishment, US Traditionalist Establishment, US Libertarian Establishment, the "popular" sides of all of these, Greater Europe, Germany, other world "powers", religious power groups, etc.

I'd need to understand more about the motivation of the Azov Battalion but their support of the Ukrainian Government seems to be a political tactic. The Ukrainian Government appears to be at least nominally left wing so why is a nominally right wing (for want of a better word) colluding with the left. The relationship between them appears to be purely a matter of cynical pragmatic expedience though I'm not sure why they supported the Euromaiden situation.