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The Forum > Article Comments > The freedom and ethics of protest in a time of pandemic > Comments

The freedom and ethics of protest in a time of pandemic : Comments

By Rob Cover, published 8/9/2020

Some of the anxiety driving recent protests in Melbourne and Ballarat relates to reasonable personal and community concerns about the impact of sustained lockdown on work, business and social life.

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Dear Dan,

I am aware that I seem to have drifted from the topic, but this is because life choices, preferences and even political ideas ought to draw on metaphysical resources.

«Your analogy of wearing a mask is further confusing the issue. A mask is a pretence.»

And so is the make-belief that we are that body which we wear.
You see, political conclusions may differ subject to our metaphysical understanding. Had it been true that we were humans, had it not been just a mask, then indeed we could arrive at very different political conclusions.

«To reiterate, your stand is of a right of total personal freedom and beholden to no man (authority).»

Not quite. I just explained that we are not a person.
We, you and I and everyone else, are absolutely free, but NOT SO our masks, not the persons that we pretend to be, thus "total personal freedom" is out of the question.

Now you also introduce the concept of "right". I don't like this term: "rights" are a civil/social concept, whereby a human authority of a kind ALLOWS certain people to do certain things. This is not freedom at all, this is pittance: freedom is natural, God-given and cannot be robbed.

«How do you exercise that right?»

As above, my freedom is not a right.
One way I exercise my freedom is by choosing to belong or not to societies and by accepting or not, certain authorites.

«Do you realise that is an anarchist position, and do you wish to dispute the point?»

It depends. A-narchy means the absence of rule. An anarchist as I understand, opposes any rule whatsoever. My modified position is that no one may rule over another without their consent. It's fine to have rules/governments, so long as those who are made to live under them have agreed to it. I envision a society where everyone participates by free choice. I do not want to live in a society, even the most wonderful one, if it forces itself upon others who disagree to have anything to do with it.

[continued...]
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 12 September 2020 11:45:42 PM
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[...continued]

«You are not pretending to deny your view of freedom as totally devoid of responsibility to any but yourself.»

What a strange thing to say!

I never advocated against responsibility: with freedom comes responsibility and with absolute freedom comes absolute responsibility.

Nothing wrong about being responsible only to myself, for I still have myself to answer:

Suppose I agree to participate in a society and therein follow certain rules/authorities. If I fail to meet the obligations which I FREELY undertook when joining that society, then what does it make of my personality? A cheat, an undeserving weakling who cannot keep their word, an untrustworthy low-life... is this what I want my persona to become? Is this the way to respect myself and ultimately, my inherent divinity? Is this the way to approach and ultimately realise my unity with God?

«Which brings into question now, the issue of conscience; particularly a social conscience.»

Sorry, while conscience is a great guide, to nourish, observe and sharpen, I have no idea what "social conscience" means.

«you write about truth goodness and beauty, but nobody chooses to hear you.»

I wonder how you know all the readers, including those who never comment.

In any case, I do my duty by faithfully responding to your questions, then everyone has the freedom to listen or not. I will certainly not force myself on anyone and rather not write anything than have even one person forced to read my words.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 12 September 2020 11:45:46 PM
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Thank you for your response Yuyutsu.

I’ve followed your posts on OLO for many years, and you have intrigued me over the same period with your total difference to main stream posters.

I conclude you are a very private person and I respect that position, however, you continue to engage in the OLO environment where all is seldom friendly.

I respect your privacy, (pearls before the swine and all that angstj, and your willingness to engage is appreciated.

I’ll return to this later. I have many questions.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 13 September 2020 9:42:06 AM
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Yuyutsu

These are some of your under explained statements.

*...We are free by nature, but we lost some of this freedom by identifying with a human body...*

You allude here with this one, to a pre-human condition.

*... Our inherent freedom, which can never be taken away, includes not only freedom from the bondage of society but goes as far even as freedom from association with a body that is bound by the laws of physics...*

You need to elaborate for meaning. What is this inherent freedom you refer to; a theory I do not subscribe to, unless you refer to a free will. Surely that is different to what you allude to here!

I’m attempting to tease out a more definitive analogy of your description of freedom.
We fight wars for freedom. Freedom is the prize. But we are still inexorably bound to the dictates of that particular winning State power.

Also, you may choose a life of a hermit and live an apparent disconnected and free existence, but it’s an illusion.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 13 September 2020 8:17:21 PM
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Dear Dan,

Yes, no human is free, not even a hermit.
Even when State-power is small, there are still the constraints of the stomach, for without food a man perishes.
Even if food comes easy, there are still the constraints of germs and viruses.
Even if a man's immune-system is superb, old age cannot be defeated.

Man is mortal and nothing mortal is free from decay.

So if you identify yourself with a human, then you must conclude: "I am not free, I cannot remain young and live for as long as I want".

The good news is that you are not a human.
No matter how strongly you feel that you are.
No matter how long you have been taught, from the cradle, to think that way.
The human that you might mistakenly think you are, I previously referred to as your "mask", your "persona". It is not you.

«You allude here with this one, to a pre-human condition.»

Not "pre" but your behind-the-human true self, ever free, eternal, infinite.

«unless you refer to a free will.»

No. Your will is no doubt freer than your body, but is still not absolutely free, it still have limitations - you do not.

«I’m attempting to tease out a more definitive analogy of your description of freedom.»

Take the analogy of a gold-ring.
The ring is not free to remain a ring forever.
A day will come and it will helplessly be melted into perhaps a gold-anklet, a gold-watch, or a gold-tooth.

If you think of yourself as that gold-ring, you would constantly worry: "what will happen if they melt me?".
But if you look behind that appearance of a ring and say: "Hey, I am gold", then your worries are over:
"today they shape me as a ring, tomorrow as a bracelet, but none of that can change my golden nature!"

«We fight wars for freedom. Freedom is the prize.»

We fight and win relative freedom, temporary freedom, but at least this reminds us of the absolute freedom that we are after, without realising which we can never be satisfied.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 13 September 2020 11:26:45 PM
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Yuyutsu

You appear to have changed sides in your argument for human freedom.

Let’s go back to square one and clear up some loose ends. Start here again. Viz.

*... At first, everyone has freedom, total freedom.
Then some of us compromised: we wanted to identify with a [human] body...*

Unless you refer to the Judo/Christian concept of free-will, I cant imagine a situation where the event you describe above, IE choosing to sacrifice our total freedom (sic) to membership of the human tribe.

In my Judo/Christian square, that’s the one to me where I live my total existence, I fail to understand your logic.
Are you Buddhist?

If you wish to be understood by such as myself, then you need to be mindful of my limitations and willingness to grasp another concept from outside of that square.

I contend at no stage outside of the doctrine of free will, are we free to consider if we personally choose to belong to the human tribe or not. Even inside those confines of free will, we are constrained by our physical body, and inexorable membership of the human tribe.

The argument fiercely raging at the moment in the West, is how far we may extend our free will to dominate others who disagree. But that particular argument is entirely confined to the physical nature of the individual, which very much includes the physical thinking process. (Thought Policing).

Yuyutsu, what world did we leave behind when we (all of us, in your view) agreed to join the constraints of membership of the human tribe, otherwise known as society?

I’m intrigued by the concept, but I’m not getting your point, in spite of your gallant attempts.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 14 September 2020 5:57:54 AM
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