Sorry Graham, I think you all mad better get back on your medicine.

David

I don't think that we should let the sins of Chairman Andrews pass. Hopefully, we won't have to learn to live with him as long as Graham probably rightly thinks we will have to live with the China virus. There seems to be no end in sight, and there won't be as long as our stupid government keeps allowing people to cross our international border, no matter how Australian they are. We have police appearing on TV, threatening the locals if we don't do the right thing, while our idiot government is still exempting people wanting to return from overseas. Close domestic borders, but not the big one where it all started.

An excellent article, Graham; nothing but the truth. It's criminal that politicians refuse to consult real thinkers and anyone not in their own bureaucratic dunghill

Thanks for the article Graham. It is reassuring to learn that there is some rational debate about the COVID crisis. Not so very long ago humans faced several pandemics and/or epidemics without the modern public health systems that Australia now enjoys. Life went on as it had no other choice and many died. Vaccines or loss of virulence permitted an accommodation between infectious agent and the population. The COVID crisis has shown clearly that while every human life has value, the economic well being of the community is equally important to sustaining nations. No economy, people die from starvation or failed support systems. It is the excess deaths from COVID that should be used as a barometer for management, not simply deaths from or by COVID. Your article should be read and understood by many for the greater good of us all.

Graham you might find this of interest: https://www.albertfuchs.com/summary-speculation-suggestion/

I'm not sure on his one.

The ogars and ogresses are identified as State Premiers in this script. But I'm not convinced of that.

There is a world at play here, of which we form just a very small part. And there are accidents and incidents in the game.

So the two counter argument I have noticed, is let the ball roll where it will, as opposed to guiding it towards the pins with a gutter each side.

And it is certainly forcing us to look at what really matters in life. The money tree is looking decidedly sick. With no apples falling to the ground for easy picking anymore.

I notice though, a strange mix of anxiety for the future built into a joy at the receiving of a golden handshake in the short term, from the current course.
And aren't politicians expert at buying people off!

But having entered Luna Park through its gaping jaws, there's a whole lot else going on in the compound.
The choice is simple enough, and to me it seems that less death and lingering illness of the population, and keeping the public health intact as best we can, is winner

Health wins over money anytime. This argument is considered here, but if people choose to end their lives as an alternative to another view of life, such as adjusting to life in a new world, then its simply down to a philosophical question; a personal choice which can confront anybody out of the blue, through threatening events with similar outcomes.

Dan

Grahasm,

108 deaths here in Australia; 135,000 in the US, with much more than 108 every single day, and the death curve about to start rising again.

Forty five 9/11s in the US. My bet is that our numbers might eventually rise to 200 or even more, while the number of deaths in the US will hit 200,000 before the end of August, and keep rising.

But if we put our hands over our eyes, like Dr Donald would prescribe, we won't see any deaths. Problem solved !

Roll on, November. Please !

Joe

Dan,

Hmmm ....... I think, once you entered the gates of Luna Park, you wandered much too far into the thickets of metaphor. Please come back ! I haven't a clue what you are writing about .....

Joe

Dan,

Sorry, got it ! And I think you're right too :)

Certainly this virus is costing us all a lot of money, and economic damage. But if anybody thinks that current policies in Australia are too expensive, just wait for a few months and work out what the alternative (and why do I always think of US p0licies as the antithesis of ours ?) might be costing in the US ?

Of course, you can always just put your hands over your eyes. "No more testing ! No more testing ! Without testing, there would be no cases, and so no deaths. End testing NOW !" What a bunch of five-year-old morons.

Joe

COVID-19 isn't allowed to work as well as it is designed for by Evolution !

Where 5.9% of deaths weekly in a population is considered to be an epidemic, the weekly rate in the US from the China virus has dropped from a high of 7.8% in April, to 1% in July.

Not too bad really, but let's allow that get in the way of obsessive hysteria about the US President.

There is a very real need to consider the question put up as the heading for this thread.
My thoughts are leaning towards the Swedish model.
I know there has been a change of heart and direction in Sweden, but I ask if this is not because of external political pressures, or virtue shaming from the foreign media.
Notwithstanding the fact that their tourism is suffering greatly.
The decision to 'let the chips fall where they may', IS a good one for the economy, and I believe, for the community in general.
As I have said before, those who are susceptible to this virus, WILL die.
The rest will not, so why destroy the lives, by destroying the lively-hood of the healthy people.
I hope this point is understood, as it is a pragmatic and objective decision, not taken lightly, but it follows the reasoning that 'you have to be cruel to be kind'.
And of course, the whole thing would have been over a lot sooner, as those affected would have succumbed sooner and not have it going on and on like every where else in the world.
Now that Sweden has apparently relented, we will see them enduring this pandemic for a lot longer than if they had stuck to their original plans.
And yes, yes, I know, there is no need for anyone to remind me that this plan is cruel, I already know that, and my thoughts on it, so don't waste your posting allocation on responding.
Find something constructive to use your posting on in response to this thread/question.

Altrav, are you yourself considered to be in a high risk group regarding Covid19? wife? Children?

Ttbn,

Yes, you may be right, we've all got to die some time, and few of us die happy. So what's a hundred thousand here or there ? Two hundred thousand ? Three ? Half a million in the US by next year ? Bunch of wusses, worried about death ! Ptuh !

But 108 deaths here in Australia ! The cost of saving the lives of a few old people ! At the same time as all those hospital beds left empty ! The waste !

So let it rip, let's get back to business, open up. Let the herd immunity hypothesis prevail ! Get it once and you're right, you'll never get it again, it's just a little flu anyway. Just watch, Bolsinaro will be right as rain in a week or so. It's all a hoax anyway. Nothing a bit of disinfectant or a strong light won't fix.

Anyway, it's all the fault of those foreigners like Fauci (what sort of Eyetalian name is Fauci ?) And if we didn't test, there wouldn't be any cases at all.

Joe

Sorry Graham, suggest you leave the medical advice to those who know something about medicine.

If it was just a capricious boomer remover? We could just let er rip!?

But this is not what conid-19 is. Seems on available evidence, there is little immunity in infection and recovery? With numerous examples of reinfection followed by reinfection.

My brother came down with double pneumonia and mum was warned, he couldn't get a second episode, given it could prove fatal. UNDERSTAND? Monday morning experts?

The lungs which this respiratory inflammation attacks have little natural immunity, and as the alveoli are attacked inflamed and all but drowning in mucus. Recovery to full function may not ever be possible?

And given there is no herd immunity without a vaccine and more than an 80% uptake? Your natural life with reinfection followed by reinfection, may terminate at around forty? And see you wheezing around the joint like a heavy smoker with eczema just before the final killer blow reinfection?

Don't blame the premiers or the medical advice! Blame the jubilant and celebrating right-wing press for claiming this was just a conspiracy to shut down the economy! And the stupid sheeple for believing it and failing to comply.

Blame only those who failed and fail to comply for the second wave and the shutdown reputation!

Or just do a Donald, cover the eyes and wait for it to go away naturally? If it ever will!?


Amazingly, when we did comply, even the seasonal flu was far less evident!
Alan B.

Correction, the auto-correct corrected repetition to reputation!

Aint Grammarly wonderful?
Alan B.

The lockdowns simply show how dumbed down we have become as a society. Basing such draconian measures on such flawed modelling and setting up generation of debt is straight out of the socialist handbook. No doubt Gates, Fauci, Soros and China are rejoicing at the self destruction of Western civilisation. Meanwhile the likes of those democrat mayors should be in gaol for sending covid back into nursing homes. Like all socialist they will continue to be paid and those with TDS will continue to have to change their narratives anytime truth or facts are revealled.

Bah, Humbug. 'Sweden' - 'stupidity'.

Graham forgets one thing - this virus has been shown Not To Be Able to Survive in the Environment (at least not for long - 24 hours on cardboard, 72 on plastic) - it needs a Living Host to survive and propagate.

Lockdown was spot on, but the people Failed.
Arrogant, self-centered people who thought it was a lark, that they were invincible.

BLM arrives, and people go nuts - forget the virus, What Virus? Madness - mindless, mob-rule hysteria of virtually no real significance to Aus. OK, Indigenous rights are important, but our police are not going around 'targeting' 'Any of the Others' without just cause, and so very many efforts have been and are being continuously made to improve Indigenous' and Others' lives. Perfect? No, but, it is a two-way street. Need help, then ask, but don't chuck it in other people's faces when it is given, or abrogate personal responsibility because the 'spoon feeding' doesn't go far enough for you. You, you, you.
Give over, get a life, get on with it, and stop the endless complaining.

Back to tors. If people practice the correct protocols the virus can be beaten. The experience in Taiwan has proven this, and its meteoric slap-down in its second 'flush' in China, in Beijing.
Overseas returns present a problem, yes, because these have been even more neglectful of personal responsibility than our people - and untruthful about their activities.

The safe re-opening of our borders to in-coming international travel may well not safely be possible until all those 'mugs' overseas 'get with the program'!

This virus, like Influenza, May be able to lie 'dormant' in some hosts (even some non-human perhaps), but that is not yet proven.
Either way, respecting the protocols and personal responsibility, and 'stomping' on any resurgence is the key to success.

Anyone considered this virus might even be China trying a prototype 'experiment' on the West?

As for accepting a modicum of 'collateral damage' - just so you can get on with Your Life? Fie on you for such a suggestion.

Graham,

I think the suicide numbers (up ~1000/pa over the next 5 years) are revealing of the massive impact the economic shutdown has caused. Add to that, the, as yet, unknown leap in domestic violence, family breakdown, lost careers, and myriad other affects and the devastation of the lockdowns is slowly becoming apparent.

The problem with governments changing course now is that they'd have to admit that the suppression/elimination strategy was wrong or overstated. Flatten the curve in the early days was a reasonable response to imperfect information. Those days have gone.

The trouble is that government rarely admits error. Generally erroneous policies are fixed by the next government or even the next generation of politicians. We haven't got that long to wait this time.

We now have a second wave and no certainty there won't be a third and fourth wave. And consequently we have a new lockdown. Are we to lockdown every time some nonagenarian succumbs to the virus?

The yearly flu was so accepted as part of life that we don't even bother tracking exactly how many die from it each seasons. Last year ~4000 died from the flu but we don't know how many with any exactitude. Its just part of life. WuFlu has to and will also become part of life along with all the other coronavirisus in our midst.

Governments are locked into this now and I see no way they can retreat. In NZ there's even talk of some folk being in isolation for months or even years although I suspect that'll change post the election.

But change must happen. A massively constrained economy can't continue to support the standards of living we have come to expect. We have already condemned the next generations to lower living standards than otherwise would be expected because of the profligacy over the past six months. That which can't go on, won't.

How we get from here to there is the issue.

PS: "women and children first". I think that policy was instituted so that the men could the address the issue without the annoying background noise.

jimmy2shoes,

YES!

Given the opportunity I would be happy to elaborate, but the short answer is yes, very much so.

We need to weigh carefully the cost of the virus versus the cost of lockdown, both in terms of lost-years-of-quality-life.

The main cost of COVID-19 is not death. Rather, about a half of those infected (including milder cases) suffer long after from its effects, especially from the loss of lung capacity, which in turn damages every area of life. It is still early to tell the proportion of people for which this damage will be permanent. Kidney and heart damage are also common. This cannot be ignored.

On the other side of the equation, we need to evaluate the impact of lockdown restrictions on our health - physical, emotional, mental and spiritual health.

Both costs are heavy and not fully known. Then we must also consider the moral questions, under which circumstances (if any) is it acceptable to order people what to do or not do, especially in their own private space, but I will not get into this today.

Compared with such serious matters, it is insulting when people, including PM Morrison, introduce the lesser consideration of "economy" into the discussion as if things that can merely be solved with money are comparable to our health, quality of life and morality. For them it is not the reopening up our life that matters, but only the "reopening up the economy". While it so happens that economical interests coincide with the health benefits of being able to interact with other humans and take care of ourselves, one should be ashamed of bringing them up at this time of emergency.

Yuyutsu, I like your last post.

For an article supposedly based on fact, most of the figures presented are no more than a vague extrapolation from equally vague reports complied by who knows. Take this one for instance; "Based on a UK estimate of death due to people deferring procedures or consultations, you can add another 10,000 to the likely total." Why add 10,000, why not 20,000 or 100,000, if your going to pluck figures out of the air why not pluck a real gob smacker! Britain with a mortality rate from Covid-19 around 200 times greater than Australia, based on population and actual number of deaths can hardly be held up as the authority on anything to do with this virus. Of course no one is going to blame the shambolic Tory leadership of Bug Ridden Boris, just as no one is finger pointing at Dangerous Doctor Donald in the US.

Lets cut to the chase on this, and say what's its all about. Its about the economic value of human lives to Capital, noting else. Based on the value of slaves in the Southern US states pre-civil war, a 25 year old healthy skilled buck, sorry male, and a slightly younger skilled female of childbearing age are of the most value. Some 80 year old with underlying health issues, and a general weakness due to age is of no value, in fact such is a liability, why did we allow such a liability to reach the age of 80 anyway.

While this new broom is clearing society of the old dead wood, how about the problem of the mentally ill, the physically retarded, and the chronically sick etc, etc.

I'm pleased you got it Jo 2.

Effectively, what I'm saying is, there is more to the virus outcomes than simple death.

It takes no prisoners. Nobody can rely on any preconceived idea that if you contract Covid, you'll be ok if you do not die. Evidence is mounting that no you will not come out the other side of it without side effects.

These side effects are proving to cause lingering conditions which preclude a normal healthy lifestyle for extended periods; if not indefinitely.

Maybe we will be faced with building special nursing homes for survivors.
If that is the risk, then a balance between financial loss of lock-down, and a world of very ill survivors is the real cost to consider.

Dan

Given the fact that this is a psycho-physical realm and that everything is in one way or another inter-connected, and that all of our political dramas originate in and are a dramatization of what Jung called the collective unconscious this reference provides a unique all-inclusive perspective on the Corona 19 phenomenon and how it is related to what Jack Forbes called The Wetiko Disease (psychosis) in his book Columbus and Other Cannibals.
http://www.awakeninthedream.com/articles/covid-19-wetiko

The author of the above essay also refers to this related essay in the always excellent Cosmos Journal
http://www.kosmosjournal.org/kj_article/searching-for-the-anti-virus-covid-19-as-quantum-phenomenon

Hypothetical essays or what-ifs, have little practical value in the real world of real frontline medicine.

Simply put, a healthy economy requires a healthy population and folk willing to work!

I've done some very dangerous jobs and was paid for what the risks entailed.

Health care workers teachers and emergency workers don't have to put their lives on the line on a daily basis for the yahoos who believe all the EXTREME right-wing crap about conspiracies/no worse than the flu and other examples of willfully blind ignorance!

We're not callous, indifferent Nazis, who historically put little value on other human lives, but concocted all manner of reasons not to! But Aussies who give a rat's about the other bloke, the less well off and our elderly neighbours! In other words, normal naturally empathetic human beings! However, I stand to be corrected, Altrav, ttbn, runner and have I missed anybody?

The economy can be restarted as soon as you all want! Just so long as it's is automated and energy dependant high tech can afford the required energy bill! And built from the ground up, will require a much bigger, healthy workforce than we currently have!

And the government that is willing to see the light, learn from the past and embrace cooperative capitalism, reform all over the joint, practical pragmatism and a return to full Aussie ownership! Kudos to Joe, Chris, Dan and Paul1405 for a little objectivity and honesty!

As for a recalcitrant Leadership, the virus has created enormous new economic developmental cooperative capitalism opportunities! So, don't just do something, stand there!
Alan B

Just because some idealists believe their own nonsense doesn't equate into reality !

Agree more harm's going to be done by the reaction but it's not really out of the ordinary.
This interventionism tendency's been growing in intensity for a good quarter of a century. The impost's always on the individual.
It's always about safety of one form or another and it's always framed as the moral cause.
The difference this time's that it's on so many all at once.

Petitioning for rationality's a noble endeavor but it won't achieve much. Unfortunately. Save perhaps creating a future opportunity to say we told you so.

Jamo

I think your conflating equality madness with a public health issue.
These are two totally different animals.

Dan

Graeme,

I wrote to the Courier Mail some months ago. 'Shut Down the Lockdown'. The CM editorial that day, carried the same message.

I saw many of the things occurring that you outlined in your article. I believe many of us saw that then, and we all gave them time, but it extended way beyond reasonable.

Now is the time for articles centred on assessment.

Well done on your research.

I would only add that Westernism has been infected, in a more fundamental way, with a culture of fear and fear mongering. This culture is fermented by narrowly focused experts and pervades everywhere today.
Dr Faucci and our own Dr Jeanette Young are prime examples.

Alan B,
Young has no medical expertise in infectious disease, she was an ER doctor. Fauci has great expertise in Infectious diseases but he keeps flip flopping and has often been wrong.
Both, to me, appeared to have been motivated by fear.
Why would we listen to either?

ENFORCED LOCKDOWNS.
The only places in the world where the lockdown took place and was/is being enforced by military are Victoria and China. Both socialist republics.

Loudmouth

In November President Donald Trump is looking at a thumping win. Ignore the polls and the media Loudmouth.
Look at the data I looked at in 2016. It is this: look at the enrolments of confirmed Republican and Democat voters in the swing states.
In 2016 Republican enrolments far outstripped Democrat in those states. It is happening again now... the only difference is the gap in enrolments is wider.

I predicted Trump would win easily in 2016.
He will have a larger win in November. 2020

Thanks Faustino, interesting site. Not much to say on the rest, but I'm disappointed that there is the continuing reference to the USA situation as if it were particularly bad, and that somehow it is all due to Trump's mismanagement. I have a feeling that if we had another president of the US, we'd get similar results, but no one would be bothering to point the finger. Conversely, I also have the feeling that some states that are now closed would actually be open because there is a political element to this.

The US, like Australia,is a federation. You can no more blame Trump than you can Morrison. The state governors have all taken different directions, and in fact, if you took the cities in the northeast of the country out of the equation, the death rate would look pretty good by northern hemisphere standards. There are some interesting natural experiments there. Have a look at South Dakota for example. https://youtu.be/5OxINIkJuHY They took a path similar to Sweden.

BTW, the idea that only doctors can have a position on this is nuts. Doctors are good at treating illnesses, they aren't public health experts or epidemiologists. And these decisions have wider implications than those professions are qualified to deal with, calling for economists and other sorts of policy experts. And then, it doesn't really matter what your qualifications, it doesn't inoculate you from making mistakes, or prevent other non-specialists being right. But if you want a doctor, watch this https://youtu.be/I18d-elHLvg. So there, a doctor agrees with me, I must be right. Hmmm

More Bah Humbug and spurious supposition.

Again I submit, this virus has not been shown to be able to survive in the environment, and in fact the contrary is strongly indicated - that it requires a 'living host' to survive and multiply.

But, problem solved. Dedicate appropriate sections of all public and private hospitals to care for all aged-care and other susceptible people in Oz as 'potential' Covid patients, and transfer all those people to those hospital beds, whether 'positive' or not.

Then, the rest of the devil-may-care populace can exercise the Covid protocols - in full, masks and all - or not, as they see fit, but, with a clear understanding that the macho warriors choosing to break protocols and laugh at the potential consequences will only be able to have a hospital bed if they are indeed 'at death's door'. Short of this, they can stay in self-isolation and see how they go, or can go out and spread the 'joy'.

Break out the Champagne, run rampant, and wear the consequences.
'Herd Immunity', natural selection, or eradication by 'excluding' available 'hosts'? Individual choice (though I believe the 'correct' choice should be mandated), but be clearly aware of potential loss of susceptible 'kin', friends, and any unwary passers-by.

No more need for supervised 'hotel isolation' (except for returning overseas Aussies), or for general 'testing' (outside of hospital), an immediate end to job-keeper and reduction to job-seeker to, say, $750/wk, police back to 'normal' duties, military personnel back to barracks, no more closed borders (except international ones for all non-Aussies), and with consequent re-opening of the economy and big savings to government budgets.

Alternatively - How about 'dob in' a 'drongo'? Or - straight to incarceration for flagrant 'yobs'? Let's have a 'vote'!

Bouquets to all survivors. Noting: all health service, transport and essential services to wear full protective gear supplied by 'the state' when on duty. (However, what happens when they get home?)
(TBC)

Cont'd:

And, what's with the 'musical chairs' in aged-care homes, with casual staff skipping from one home to another? Can't each of these staff be given equivalent working hours at one location, and save all the commuting - and avoid all the added potential for spreading the 'menace'?
(Or, could some of these casuals indeed be 'working the system' to avoid any impact on coincidental 'welfare' entitlements? Puzzling.)

Say, if our hospitals can be permanently expanded to care for all needing aged or disability-care, then the aged-care staff will be available for other work, and may even take up a career in nursing?

COVID-19 TO OVERWHELM ICU BED NUMBER LIMITS - UNLESS...

1. Without COVID-19 cases isolation, traveller quarantine and social distancing COVID-19 cases will by-far-overwhelm the number of Australian Intensive Care Unit (ICU) beds used for all types of diseases and accidents of people of ALL AGES.

ICU wards are always heavily used/catered for - for all causes from women birth complications, infant illnesses, heart cases of 50y/old men, post cancer surgery, to increased normal flu cases (right now) in Winter.

Unlike severe flu viruses and other covids COVID-19 doesn't make most spreaders really ill. Without isolation-quarantine measures COVID-19 spreads quickly in a comparatively undetectable way.
__________________________________________

2. Source "Surge capacity of Australian intensive care units associated with COVID-19 admissions" published 30 March 2020 at http://www.mja.com.au/journal/2020/surge-capacity-australian-intensive-care-units-associated-covid-19-admissions

This is the simple but deadly numbers game:

- There are 191 ICUs in Australia with available ICU beds = 2,378

Maximal estimate surge of ICU beds (an 191% increase) = 4,258

This surge would require:

- a 325% increase in senior doctors = 4092

and

- a 365% increase in ICU nurses = 42,720
________________________________________________

3. Source "IMPACT OF COVID-19: Theoretical modelling of how the health system can respond" at http://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2020/04/impact-of-covid-19-in-australia-ensuring-the-health-system-can-respond-summary-report.pdf

(i) modelling of an uncontrolled COVID-19 outbreak requires ICU beds = 35,000

(which would greatly exceed Australia’s expanded capacity of <7,000 ICU beds.)

(ii) With cases isolation and quarantine, demand is reduced to ICU beds = 17,000

(still well above expanded ICU bed capacity).

(iii) With isolation, quarantine and social distancing daily
demand is less than 5,000.
______________________________________

CONCLUSION

So without COVID-19 cases isolation, traveller quarantine and social distancing COVID-19

cases will by-far-OVERWHELM the number of Australian ICU beds used for all types of diseases

and accidents of people of ALL AGES.

Pete

Hi Graham,

If we assume that Trumpf has average intelligence, and that he has been constantly advised one way or the other about how to handle this Covid-19 catastrophe, then he has been in the position to take the wisest course - or to choose to go all-out for re-election, and to hell with the consequences.

IF he had taken a similar course to Morrison's here, then instead of around 140,000 deaths so far, he may have kept the toll down to as low as three or four thousand (given that the population of the US is about fifteen times ours).

Clearly, Trumpf has chosen the election-oriented path, and - so far - has thus sacrificed more than 135,000 people in his scramble for re-election. So far.

So far, 135,000 Americans have died on his re-election altar. This raises the question: if he knew this could happen - or recklessly didn't really give a stuff - then has he committed, or been a party to, manslaughter on a massive scale ?

If so, once he is no longer president, can he be charged with those multiple offences ? Or does he have some sort of immunity ? That presidents are allowed to risk the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in the Great Cause of re-election ?

On the other hand, I did hypothesise that Trumpf had more or less normal intelligence. That may be his 'get out of jail' card.

Question: will Runner urge him to play it ?

Joe

and your alternative President Joe? Your namesake?

Well said Joe.

Just shows where faux "Christian" runner's politics really lie.

Runner,

So that's a 'yes' ? For Trumpf to climb over tens of thousands of bodies just to get re-elected ?

And it's either/or ? Trumpf or Biden ? Actually, I'm hoping that Biden chooses Michelle Obama as his running mate, then retires after a couple of years. Then she runs in her own right in 2024. What do you think of that option ?

Joe

Just what America needs another polished liar who speaks for hours and says nothing, runs a country and achieves nothing, in short just another snake oil salesman, only much worse.
We call a man "slick", what do we call a female?
No I think America has had enough "slick" Presidents, I for one am glad to see one who clearly displays his faults and flaws.
Let's face it, if you all don't know that THE GOVT runs a country not the morons who tell us all how wonderful they are and all the things THEY have done.
The congress is there for what if not to govern and debate and make THE decisions.
So whoever thinks that these INDIVIDUALS are running the country are waaaaaay off track and further proof that people should not be allowed to vote or give opinions for that matter.

Joe

I will really believe you care about the tens of thousands of US covid deaths (caused by China except for many of the old people infected by democrat mayors decisions) if you showed one ounce of compassion over the millions of unborn who are murdered each year. You can continue with your deception narrative that if Hilary was in power their would be less covid deaths but I doubt whether you really believe it. TDS allows you to lie and speak with deception.

As for Michelle Obama I have no idea. If she is nearly as corrupt and inept as Obama was, America will be destroyed even quicker that what it is now. Then again she is African/American and female so for the identity politics of the democrats she is the perfect fit. Personally my favourite US pollie is Ben Carson.

Runner,

I've declared nothing whatever about Hillary Cranston, as far as I'm concerned he's ancient history.

And abortion is women's business, not yours. End of. Unless you want to look after all those kids ? So sue me.

So how many staff members did Obama dismiss for incompetence or corruption ? How many have ended up in jail ? Compared to ...... ?

Joe

'So how many staff members did Obama dismiss for incompetence or corruption ? How many have ended up in jail ? Compared to ...... ?'

have no idea Joe but if the court system is as rotten as Victoria where Chairman Dan and his team have got away with corruption for years I suspect your question means nothing.

btw black people killing black people is their business. So what gives so many whites the right to say its wrong. That's about your logic on murdering babies. Also you obviously ignore the number of people waiting for adoptions but don't let that get in the way of your heartless lying narrative. But the covid patients? Suddenly you find a conscience when you think you can blame Trump.

Runner,

Please forgive me, but you did raise the issue of " ..... as corrupt and inept as Obama was ...... " in relation to Michelle, without examples, and now, somehow, flipping to Daniel Andrews.

No chance of your sticking to your own topic ?

But now that you have raised the performance of Andrews as an issue, it does invite comparison with the performance of other leaders. In the past week, around a dozen people have died in Victoria from this dreadful virus, while in the US - the obvious comparison - around three thousand have died under the incompetent hand of your Great Leader, in the same period. Allowing for population differences, Andrews has done about ten times better than the Lone Ranger.

So you'll be singing the praises of Andrews from now on then, on his superior record ?

As for Biden, I'm not all that over-the-moon about him, but at least he won't have the deaths of hundreds of thousands on his hands. And he'll hand over to a Black woman midway. Wonderful.

Joe

Oh Joe, so the State Premiers are responsible in Australia but not the Governors in US. Oh well double standards are a norm when suffering TDS.

"NO ICU BEDS AVAILABLE AT 49 FLORIDA HOSPITALS"

Florida has done all the wrong things that Australia's LIBERTARIAN coronavirus "experts" have been suggesting. Florida's Trump pushed "lets restart the economy ASAP" campaign is now reaping the "benefit".
_______________________________________

That "benefit" being Coronavirus cases filling ICU beds - leaving no available beds for the usual diseas and accident caseloads.

CNN, 20th July 2020 reports http://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-07-19-20-intl/h_4568646d74f57c7a13f0215b05bb0054

"There are no ICU beds available at 49 Florida hospitals"

"There are 49 hospitals in Florida with 0% ICU beds available, according to Florida's Agency for Health Care Administration website as of 3 p.m. EST Sunday.
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CBS News, 19th July 2020: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-coronavirus-some-icus-have-run-out-of-beds/

"At least 45 hospitals in Florida had no available beds in intensive care units as of Sunday afternoon as the state has emerged as the new epicenter of the U.S. coronavirus pandemic, according to data from the state's Agency for Health Care Administration. Nine of those facilities are located in hard-hit Miami-Dade County and another five are in neighboring Broward County.

Of the 6,252 total ICU beds in [Florida], 5,035 are filled, meaning only about 19% of ICU beds are free statewide. Several of Florida's smaller counties — including Nassau, Okeechobee and Putnam — have no available ICU beds, while a number of larger counties, including Seminole and St. Lucie, have under 5% of their beds available.

The number of new coronavirus cases in Florida topped 10,000 for the fifth day in a row, with 12,523 reported on Sunday. There are nearly 21,000 people hospitalized throughout the state, according to the Florida Department of Health."
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Lets loosen Coronavirus measures Florida is going the way Australia-Back-to Work-Libertarians seem to be wishing on Victoria.

plantagenet

with all your blatherings the death rate in Florida is massively lower than that of New York. TDS causes you to ignore mayors who send covid patients to nursing homes while twisting the truth the fit your dishonest narrative. Fauci now deciding face masks are useful. Well I suppose when you are an expert you can keep changing your mind.

Whats your problem runner?!

You claim to be against deaths of the unborn.

Yet you are pushing COVID-Lite, good for business, arguments.

Your arguments would lead to more Pregnant American and Pregnant Australian mothers with COVID dying, before they have their Babies!