Alan B,

<<Does it matter if going full term will surely kill both the mother and child? Does it matter if the child is the product of incest or rape that effectively denies the mother her career and higher education and any promise of a quality life of her own?>>

I consider your view is short-sighted with that kind of comment. There is no need for a mother made pregnant through incest or rape to be denied any of the situations you suggested.

There are many families in Australia trying to adopt children but without success. According to the government, 'There were 330 adoptions finalised in Australia in 2017–18—80% of these were adoptions of Australian children'.

As for adoptions from overseas, "For intercountry adoption, the median length of time from when an adoptive parent became an official client of an Australian state or territory department responsible for adoption to when a child was placed for adoption had been increasing since 2007–08 (when data were first reported). It peaked at 5 years and 4 months in 2014–15, but then fell to less than 3 years in 2016–17. The median time in 2017–18 was 2 years and 11 months": http://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/adoptions/adoptions-australia-2017-18/contents/table-of-contents

"From 2016–17 to 2017–18, the number of finalised adoptions fell in Queensland, Western Australia, South Australia and the Australian Capital Territory. An increase occurred in New South Wales and the Northern Territory, while adoption numbers in Victoria and Tasmania remained stable", http://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/6d9374b3-974c-4ba3-8134-d59979733c87/aihw-cws-66.pdf.aspx?inline=true.

I found it difficult to obtain stats for the number of Australians waiting for an adoption as the process can take about 3 years and before then, some have sought inter-country adoptions. Children by Choice claimed that 'adoption rates in Queensland are very low; generally between 8 and 12 infants born to Queensland mothers are adopted each year'.

In addition, there has been government support for single and defacto relationships. This article stated: 'It is estimated that around 150,000 babies were adopted between the early 1950s and 1975; many of them born to unwed single mothers and forcibly removed at birth, http://www.childrenbychoice.org.au/factsandfigures/adoptionfactsheet

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

Any "solution" calls for a problem and the notion of "problem" usually smells of selfishness. I think we can agree that selfish "solutions" are sinful, this applies not only to killing (and not just to killing humans), but even to walking, talking, sleeping, eating, drinking, merrying and marrying.

That many handicapped children survive into adulthood tells nothing about their subjective attitude or personal wishes.
In Job chapter 3, Job speaks just like David f:

3. “May the day of my birth perish, and the night that said, ‘A boy is conceived!’
4. That day—may it turn to darkness; may God above not care about it; may no light shine on it.
5. May gloom and utter darkness claim it once more; may a cloud settle over it; may blackness overwhelm it.
6. That night—may thick darkness seize it; may it not be included among the days of the year nor be entered in any of the months.
7. May that night be barren; may no shout of joy be heard in it.
8. May those who curse days curse that day, those who are ready to rouse Leviathan.
9. May its morning stars become dark; may it wait for daylight in vain and not see the first rays of dawn,
10. for it did not shut the doors of the womb on me to hide trouble from my eyes.
11. Why did I not perish at birth, and die as I came from the womb?
12. Why were there knees to receive me and breasts that I might be nursed?
13. For now I would be lying down in peace; I would be asleep and at rest
...
16. Or why was I not hidden away in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day?
17. There the wicked cease from turmoil, and there the weary are at rest.
18. Captives also enjoy their ease; they no longer hear the slave driver’s shout.
19. The small and the great are there, and the slaves are freed from their owners."

[continued...]

[...continued]

(so Ttbn, David was not the first!)

Was Job sinful in feeling and talking this way? Not according to Job 42.

«Death is tragic at any age, but it is especially tragic for children and babies.»

The notion of "tragic" is Western/Greek/humanistic, based on human preferences rather than on religion. While the family of the deceased often perceives his/her death as tragic, never so the deceased him/herself. True, all religions state "thou shalt not kill", but the reason is that killing brings ruin on the killer, rather than on the killed.

What does the bible say on life/death preferences?
A clue is given in Deuteronomy 20:

5. "The officers shall say to the army: “Has anyone built a new house and not yet begun to live in it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else may begin to live in it.
6. Has anyone planted a vineyard and not begun to enjoy it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else enjoy it.
7. Has anyone become pledged to a woman and not married her? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else marry her.”

Thus the problem around death is of UNREALISED INVESTMENT.

What greater investment is there but in education?
Not only formal education, but even learning to walk, talk, recognise faces, toilet-training, maintaining hygiene, etc.

The more education a child attained (before fulfilling its purpose), the greater the loss if this education goes down the drain.

This topic is very complex and I don't expect a magic formula. Most abortions are probably on selfish grounds, thus sinful, but to what extent? are they more sinful then say, killing and eating a mature cow? or kitchen-insects, compared with a foetus that is still less even developed than an insect?
At times, however, abortion is carried out on altruistic grounds (have you seen the clip I referred you to?). Is it then right? Is it wrong? It is very difficult to answer, perhaps even impossible without the gift of the Holy Spirit.

David f,

I meant the first person on OLO.

To David f.

If I'm honest there are a few contraceptives that I'm not comfortable with. However, if their uses remove abortion from the picture I can better live with them.

My issue is that contraceptives are already readily available. It's not that they are complicated, expensive, or hard to get. It's that they aren't used and abortion is. Having them available isn't enough if they already are available.

I'm sorry for your cousin. I really am. If she wasn't pregnant when she commited suicide, would you look at the issues of sucide on their own, without abortion being called a solution?

As for your childhood and the strain between your parents and you, I can't relate to that as much as I do with your cousin. But look at yourself. You have kids of your own don't you? Do you wish they were not born as a result of you not being born?

Believe it or not I get suicide and depression. I understand quite a bit of it. But in the end I'm glad for too many things I've had in my life or have in my life now. Enough to be glad to not have been aborted, and later at young age, given a second chance at life also.

david f,

<<My intelligence explains more of my godless worldview than my sad childhood. There simply is no evidence for the existence of a god>>

That's a world and life view straight out of your godless mind.

I could provide stacks of evidence for the existence of God but you're not listening and it would be like casting pearls, as Jesus said according to Matthew 7:6, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+7%3A6&version=NLT

Jesus used the example of pigs and pearls to represent people who ridicule God, Jesus and the Good News (Gospel) shared with them. Jesus' view was that Christians should not continue to present the Gospel to those who trample on it and go their own godless, sinful ways. To continue presenting the Good News to people who scoff at God and ridicule Jesus is like casting pearls before pigs.

You seem to fit into this category with your regular rebuffs like: <<All deities are merely creations of the human imagination. I don't need any religious crutch to get through life>>