I don't even like animals; However, I also do not like cruelty, and live exporting of animals is cruel and disgusting. Tin pot New Zealand stopped live exports years ago, and their humanity hasn't brought them to their knees. The senator is better suited to dealing with silly women in the senate than he is promoting gross cruelty, brought about by the grossly cruel sect of Islam. The senator and the government that permits live exports are a disgrace.

//This debate about live exports is not about animal welfare.//

Bollocks.

just a shame not the same enthuiasm for babies being butchered in the womb. Right up to birth if the 'compassionate' feminist in Queensland have their way. What a sick society.

Let's get the hysteria and mis-information out of the way first.
Then let's look at this in a pragmatic and mature way and not through the eyes of children and dreamers.
Firstly we must stop 'buying the bull'.
I don't know who is behind this stupid anti 'live exports', but I'll bet there are vested interests.
There always is.
I am not that well informed as to be able to name, names.
These people hide behind dummy companies so as to not be exposed.
Now as for 'cruelty'.
The images we are shown are from sources other than those being promoted.
These ships are open sided, so any suggestion they are hot, as is promoted, is a lie.
As for the sheep standing neck high in sewage; another lie.
It is just NOT possible.
If any of you actually saw the structure and design of a 'sheep ship', you would see how all this anti live sheep export is a con.
Now as for the idiots who promote the killing and freezing of meat like NZ is doing.
Different market, different circumstances.
The morons pushing against live sheep export have created all this hysteria in their own minds and found like idiots, to promote their naive agenda.
The sheep that die between here and their destination were obviously crook to begin with.
The number of deaths are reported by the idiots and of course are inflated in a pathetic attempt to make their case.
The same sheep would have died anyway.
Just ask the farmers.
As for the heat factor.
I can't believe people don't get out more often and see that sheep live in some very, very hot climates, and still survive; if they are healthy.
So this cruelty crap is a no brainer.
There is no cruelty, just a bunch of annoying people with the intellect of a 5 year old and enormous lack of maturity.
Just to put things in perspective, has anyone seen the aftermath of a dog or fox attack?
Now that's cruelty.
But that's life.
Get over it.

I spent many of my formative years on a farm. And we were so poor that even our scenery was in black and white. And I have the photos to prove it. Levity aside, there's as much protein in an avocado as a T-bone steak. And one doesn't need refrigeration to store meat indefinitely.

After the animal is slaughtered and dressed, [or undressed,] Given its coat is surgically removed. Then hung for later cutting/boning.

At which time the meat is frozen and boxed. Or cryovaced and boxed.

Cryovaced meat can be stored transported as chilled meat, then still has a shelf life of several weeks before it's cooked. Can be chilled and thawed just once, usually still sealed in the bag replete with traditional herbs and spices.

With all the meat juices retained to add to the tenderness of the cuts. Even if done in a camp oven over an open fire.

Cryovacing on its own is good for several weeks and those weeks can extend to years if the meat is also irradiated.

Cryovacing alone gives a few weeks unrefrigerated shelf life. because the vacuum process removes all air and irradiation destroys any and all bacteria.

We could irradiate the meat if the abattoir was a nuclear-powered one where the released xenon could be concentrated inside a sealed chamber, chock full of cryovaced meat.

And with that additional process able to be sent anywhere in any country and consumed two or three years later, or just stored here until the market improved.

Meaning we could eliminate the usual fire sales that drought conditions provoke. Albeit, none of those fire-sale prices seem to be prevalent on our own supermarket shelves?
TBC. Alan B.

David, keep it up.
So far your doing well by doing what your electorate put you there to do, unlike most of the other MP's.
Don't listen to narrow, naive points of view.
Live animal exports are a major and very important industry.
If left to these morons we will have NOTHING to export, and as Aussies are regressives, it shouldn't be too long before we go into recession.
At the rate the Nannies and the Neuters are pushing to shut down any and all enterprises in Australia, all in the name of some stupid cause or another, it won't be too long now.
This next one, I won't be surprised if it is going to be more like a depression, then let's see how these stupid morons like it.
The trouble with Aussies is they have had it too good for too long and have lost the two most important factors in life; reason and common sense!

One assumes, just as meat can be cryovaced then irradiated to keep a fresh as the day it was slaughtered, for literal years.

Then so also all other forms of protein, grain fruit, nuts and vegetables etc.

Suitably ripened, on farm, avocados, could be halved de-seeded, then cryovaced and irradiated to give a similar (fresh picked) shelf life of years?

Eliminating the oxygen ends oxidisation. Destroying the bacteria without cooking or heat and you can keep your food products fresh for literal years. And with all the vitamins and minerals retained at optimum (fresh picked) levels.

What we need is the walk away safe MSR thorium technology that would produce medical-grade Xenon.

Which could after being cooled in a water bath and cleaned by passing it through activated carbon, be bladder stored until the irradiating chamber needed re-gassing.

Such a facility could also double as an emergency morgue in the event of a natural disaster.

After which the gas could be safely evacuated to the outside atmosphere, via a long pipeline and tall smokestack, with a diffuser attached to the top

Animal welfare also includes mitigating against droughts that invariably see starving animals needing to be killed for humane purposes when the farmer's finances have reached their reasonable limit.

As is the case when they in their turn need assistance just to put food on the table fuel in the family jalopy or pay their power bill. And that means affordable power and massive desal plants, outlined in, how and when, former contributions.
Alan B.

I won't tell you How many animals I helped pull out of bogs or buried when dead. Or how many times I've watched a crop I've personly sown, grow and then fail to head due to lack of moisture or rain that just never came.

But, been there done that. And now just one of the morons digging deep to help where and as much as I can, if only for animal welfare reasons. And for that reason take extreme exception to Altraves moronic remarks concerning any other opinion, save his.

Sort of reminds one of shock jock Alan Jones, who kept on repeating his false accusations when he was ruled entirely out of order.

Our live animal trade is but a bare fraction of what it once was and all those northern cattle farmers/grazers, would do well to advocate the drought proofing of our land by whatever means possible, be it Northern dams or the desalination of, extremely good flow, salty aquifers?

Some of which, like several saltwater springs that used to flow into the Murray, were piped and diverted out to sea.

We've always had climate change and caused by the sun and the moon. The only connection with the lunar orb is those science and fact-free lunatic assumptions!?

That claim we can have record heatwaves and farm ruining drought during a solar waning period, the like of which, we here on planet earth, have been experiencing since the mid-seventies!

Even so, plenty we could do about it if we could just get the usual suspects, naysayers out of the way. Because they're not here to help!

Unless it's them or their equally crooked cronies? End of story. Talking of Alan Jones and his shut the gate policy?

Bet my bottom dollar those farmers who allowed drilling and CSG wells on their properties are the only ones still in the black and able to sit out this drought, even if it's another ten years.
Alan B.

come on ALTRAV don't you know we breed sheep in order for kids to have pets. Have you not heard Mary had a little lamb.

Alan, WTF are you on about.
If you have experienced the hardships of farming you should know that all this anti livestock export is BS.
I am confused.
So, let me get this straight.
You would rather the equivalent of a ship load of sheep, and the farmers, die, because that's what's happening with this current drought, than export them and have a small percentage of them die.
Why aren't you backing the farmers here instead of the criminals who want to see farmers commit suicide and what, over some sheep?
Alan, if you are advocating the cessation of the live animal export industry, (sheep and cattle) you are a grave disappointment to your farming mates who are suffering and have suffered, because of the hardships of living off the land.
As if farmers/graziers don't have it hard enough, along you come with your band of small minded criminals and further encourage the demise of an already threatened industry and people.
Alan I never thought you would turn on your own.
I feel sad and sorry, and anger that people would put the interests of animals before that of humans.
Please tell me I read your post wrong and you do feel some empathy for the farmers.

Boy, have you got the wrong end of the stick Atrav! I was simply suggesting an idea made impossible by mindless government prohibition on truly affordable MSR thorium energy! Imagine if we had this energy as our servant?

Rapid rail could connect with submersible fast roll on roll of submersibles that could hold the entire train and given this was so?

Also, allow them to be transported wherever and whenever regardless of prevailing climatic conditions and far faster than anything we have now.

With the ship docked and the animals accepted as healthy specimens able to be unloaded as a complete train and once the sheep have decamped able to be reloaded and heading our way for the next cargo. After that and utilising capped salty aquifers, things like cash-cow, fish farms would be possible and fodder factories fed with their wastewater.

Then using that same desal water, things like taped irrigation becomes possible along with weed controlling moisture retaining biodegradable films. That would allow some cropping where now none are possible!

Yes, this would cost and where a proactive government could come to the party with grants/ interest-free loans!

This is my fourth post on his topic, so if you want to kick while I'm down, just go your hardest buddy!
Alan B.

NO, NO, Alan now you've got ME wrong.
I understood from your post that you were bagging ME for something.
I did not quite get what you were saying but all I saw was; 'And for that reason take extreme exception to Altraves moronic remarks concerning any other opinions, save his.'
I'm not very quick on the uptake so I assumed that what you were saying, by using the words 'altrave' and 'moronic' in the same sentence, that it can't be good, so I thought I had upset you when all along I am, and if memory serves, have always been, on your side.
I have applauded your take on thorium and your other suggestions, with interest.
My background is Industrial and Automotive Design/Engineering, so you see whenever I see or read something positive and worthwhile I applaud it and it's author.
Instead of the garbage that keeps pushing against any new ideas, for selfish reasons, such as the govt.
I appologise unreservedly for any distress I may have caused.
My angst is at these people who would rather see farmers die or suffer, on the reports and assumptions of vested interest groups, trying to kill off another industry that will see thousands of people suffer.
I will not appologise for prioritising humans over animals.
If you feel that way, and I can't imagine you do, I suggest we leave it at this and we move on.
If not I am relieved.

We saw all those sheep in disgusting conditions on TV, and it was all BS.

Now we need to know where the films/recordings were taken so that those responsible for this gross cruelty, in the name of producing a load of BS, can be prosecuted.

Thanks David and well put.
Straight up valid points from ALTRAV as well.
Unfortunately with the vast majority of the population existing in the artificial environ of cities where natural dangers are removed and the basic necessities are just there thanks to pipes and wires, perceptions are very different to those of the few who actually work with nature outside the concrete terrarium.
Makes for a majority particularly susceptible to the emotional propaganda used by those bent on state control of the means of production. Like "environmentalism" and "safety" animal welfare's just another tactic.
To those of us who maintain livestock the animal liberationists claims are illogical but we're so relatively few.
We're so far down the road now to total state control over all action and property it's hard to imagine how we'll come out of it short of a financial/social disaster event

//We saw all those sheep in disgusting conditions on TV, and it was all BS.//

Wrong ruminant, Is Mise. I'm pretty sure it was all sheep sh!t.

Toni,

Now that is perception (:- !!

According to the Meat and Live Stock
Organisation - Australia employs 13,000 people across
rural and regional Australia supporting thousands of
farmers and families. The New Daily, 18/04/2018, tells
us that the industry is worth $1.8 billion which allows
the Australian economy to grow.

According to Australian Livestock Exports - if the live
stock industry is eliminated it would cost a gross cost of
$300 million to stock farms. It would only generate around
$100 million in extra revenue for the meat processing
sector.

The objections to live exports are mainly driven by the
treatment of the stock, which many consider to be cruel.
However, according to Animals Australia the industry
simply accepts these deaths as part of its business model.
In fact we're told that up to 2% of every consignment of sheep
and 1% of cattle can die at sea before a government
investigation is even triggered.

So what are the alternatives to live exports?
The New Daily tells us that - Australia could develop new
abattoirs to facilitate the processing of live stock.

Prof. of Animal Breeding and Genetics at the University of
Adelaide - Wayne Pritchard says that Australia has very high
processing costs due to labour costs, costs of utilities
such as power, and various other factors. We're told that
in 2014-2015 beef abattoirs were at capacity and many animals
needed to be moved off the farms due to drought. Not having
live exports as an option would lead to huge financial losses
and environmental degradation with stock being forced to
remain on farms.

Criticisms have also been made about the treatment of our
live stock by other nations. And the ethics involved.
We're told that it is difficult for the Australian Government
to regulate animal welfare due to their inability to
enforce laws beyond our nation.

Australia would need to improve their communication of an
appropriate standard of animal welfare with the other
countries that Australia sells its stocks to.

I really can't see Australia giving up its live exports
any time soon.

Foxy, well said.
I and 13,000 others applaud you.
I am not a diplomat so I could not have put it as clearly and 'cleanly' as youv'e done.
I would like to know who is behind this massive push to bring Australia to it's knees.
It is happening, and at an alarming rate.
Just go back through the old news and see how many industries and thousands of people have been laid off.
It is what I would call, an epidemic.
To add to our woes, we are headed for another recession.
Not withstanding the seriousness and shear size of un-employed, it is only going to get worse.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Western Australia is finally, and once more gearing up for another mining, resurgence.
Unfortunately it will not be a 'boom' as it was previously, but at least we will be the recipients of many who may otherwise be struggling, either now or soon.
As before, we welcome anyone from anywhere, as we, in the West, could not handle the skill shortage we ended up with.
So I believe that the do-gooders are going to have to put the luxury of their childish beliefs on hold for some time and let reason and common sense prevail and not emotions and fantasy.
The position Australia is in, and heading for worse yet, if we don't do something about it, will make us vulnerable to the highest bidder.
If you don't believe me check the old newspapers, again you will find evidence of Australia being slowly sold off to foreign interests.

ALTRAV,

Thanks for your kind words.

I can't take the credit.

I've got farmers in our family who bring me back down to
earth on many occasions. Living in cities - many of us
don't have a clue as to what's going on in the regional
and outlying areas. And the problems people there are
facing.

Does anyone really believe that if Australia stopped its live exports that those nations won't source their animals from somewhere else?

runner,

Of course they will. As Australian Livestock Exports
Council Chairman Simon Crean said in a recent speech -

" A demand for live animals exists for a number of reasons,
including feedlots, breeding programs, and a desire to
build local industry capacity. There's also the inadequacy
of local supply chain infrastructure to handle chilled and
frozen meat products, usually in line with where a country
is in terms of economic development. And of course in many
markets, there is a preference for live animals according to
tradition or local cultures..."

We're told that "In the 1970s there was a strong demand for
food in the Middle East. Due to this, Australian sheep
producers sent animals to different countries that were
willing to pay big dollars for high quality, disease free
stock. Later on, there was a demand from SE Asia that
allowed Australia's live cattle industry to boom."

//Criticisms have also been made about the treatment of our
live stock by other nations. And the ethics involved.
We're told that it is difficult for the Australian Government
to regulate animal welfare due to their inability to
enforce laws beyond our nation.//

I'm no legal expert, but from what I know this one is tricky. Whilst they're on our soil, and presumably extending out into our territorial waters, Australian law applies. But once you hit the high seas, you're in international waters. And then of course once the livestock reach their destination, they're subject to the laws of wherever they land.

I'd be interested to know which countries live export ships are registered in, because I know that affects the laws they're bound to. I have my suspicions it's not Australia. I think if they're our sheep, they should be our ships. That gives us the greatest degree of control of the welfare of our sheep possible.

So that they don't end up crammed in like sardines, covered from head to rump in the faeces of their own species. I've never studied veterinary science, but I don't think that could possibly be good for them.

If they can't be treated humanely at sea; they should be slaughtered on our soil in line with our standards. I don't buy the argument that we won't be able to find a market: the middle classes in China & India are growing at an enormous rate, and they'll take all the lamb & mutton we can send them.

Also, wool is the best fibre ever. Seems a mistake to be breeding them for meat when goats are a thing and sheep can be bred for wool.

And finally, I don't have a single f&^ck to give when it comes to respecting cultural practices that demand gratuitous animal cruelty. Bugger 'em, they can eat more falafel or whatever.

Toni, in the interest of truth.
The pics and videos being bandied around about sheep standing neck deep in 'their own faeces' is not what it seems.
In all my years involved in farming, (I'm NOT a farmer) the only time I have seen sheep walking/standing neck deep in ANY liquid, is either during a flood or going through a sheep dip, which is in the interests of the sheep as it is a trough like structure filled with chemicals to kill parasites like lice and such.
As for the lie about the pics are taken inside a 'sheep ship', again, a lie.
A sheep ship is open sided so any water splashing in on high seas will immediately run back out, over the sides.
Also, because they are open sided debunks any suggestion the sheep are locked inside these 'hot boxes', they're not.
To clarify further.
There are many reasons why the Middle East requires the sheep be sent alive.
One reason is most people do not have access to freezers, and so keep the sheep alive till they need it.
Then the commercial consideration.
The sheep are cheaper alive even if they had the means to keep the meat frozen.
Toni, no-one is treating the sheep badly here or on the ships.
When they reach their destination; well that's out of our hands.
I do not believe we should force a culture to do things our way in their country.
It's no different than demanding Muslims follow our beliefs in their country.
We have not mastered the art of getting them to follow our beliefs in our country, what chance is there beyond our borders.
Toni, there is no actual cruelty on a scale portrayed by the idiots.
Any harsh treatment of animals is an ongoing matter.
No one will ever stop it.
I will argue quite strongly against the cessation of any livestock exports.
If there was a choice between a farmer and his family suffering, or worse, or some sheep dying in the course of their day, I'd rather some sheep suffer/die, than one human being.

//In all my years involved in farming, (I'm NOT a farmer) the only time I have seen sheep walking/standing neck deep in ANY liquid, is either during a flood or going through a sheep dip, which is in the interests of the sheep as it is a trough like structure filled with chemicals to kill parasites like lice and such.//

Yeah, the ones totally covered in sh!t weren't 'walking/standing' - because they no longer had the strength to stand up, or because they were dead. Now who's telling porkies, ALTRAV?

//As for the lie about the pics are taken inside a 'sheep ship', again, a lie.//

O.... kay. Seems to be a remarkable number of sheep on that ship if it's not a live export ship. Let me guess, ALTRAVing lunatic... it was a actually a romantic pleasure cruise for Kiwis and their partners, and it just got overbooked.

Jesus christ, it's like having Baghdad Bob explain the live export trade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5UTUAxgpE

Actually, now that I come to think about it... does anybody know what happened to Baghdad Bob after the war? Because I think we may have found the answer. How are you finding life in Australia, Mr. Al-Sahhaf?

//One reason is most people do not have access to freezers, and so keep the sheep alive till they need it.//

Yeah... or they could, you know, just not eat sheep. It's actually not that hard; I haven't had lamb since last week sometime, and I haven't broken out in a rash or anything.

//The sheep are cheaper alive even if they had the means to keep the meat frozen.//

So, less profit for us than if we sold the meat to burgeoning Asian middle classes. You're really not doing a very good job of selling this, are you?

If the Middle Easterners are too cheap too buy our meat... stuff 'em, sell it to people that aren't such tightwads. As I've pointed out, there are frigging stacks of them in China.

//Toni, no-one is treating the sheep badly here or on the ships.//

Right... so on the one hand we have direct photgraphic and video evidence that sheep are mistreated on live export ships. And on the other we have the former Iraqi Information Minister telling us that we should ignore all that and instead put our trust in bald assertions offered up without a single shred of supporting evidence. Yep, that's a hard one... [sarcasm]

//It's no different than demanding Muslims follow our beliefs in their country.//

Which you do all the time.

//Toni, there is no actual cruelty on a scale portrayed by the idiots.//

I think maybe we have different definitions of cruelty. I think that allowing animals to suffer through wilful negligence also counts as cruelty.

//No one will ever stop it.//

Not if fools keep arguing that is = ought, no, probably not.

//I will argue quite strongly against the cessation of any livestock exports.//

I'm sure you will. Fortunately, nobody will care.

Toni, fortunately your mindset is well known on OLO, from previous posts.
Again you knock anything that you don't agree with.
I have quoted facts.
You are responding emotionally, therefore NO facts.
If you believe so strongly that China will buy our livestock, please go ahead and do the deal.
Don't you think if it was possible it would not already be in progress.
What I have written is based on fact.
I have no idea where the idiots got their pics from.
You obviously know them very well so it should be easy for you to find out, because there is no sheep ship out there with closed sides so there is no way on earth that any water or liquid of any kind could ever be retained at levels depicted on the videos.
As I said they are more than likely taken after a flood or in a sheep dip.
Anyway, you fail to address the plight of the Aussie farmers.
Your attitude is typical of the idiots I speak of.
You are quite happy to see farmers and their families suffer, or worse, than some sheep die.
You've finally shown your true nature.
Toni, unless you have had or still do have, something to do with farming or the live sheep export trade, we must ignore your comments and criticisms, and simply take them as opinions.
I on the other hand HAVE such experience and therefore can speak on this topic.