cont'd ...

Dear Is Mise,

I forgot to add have you read the Bible?

Which parts do you take literally?

I think that you'll find there are nasty bits in all holy
books - however it may come as a surprise to you that
most humans are more moral than the scriptures they
hold sacred.

BTW - Taken from -Judaism 101 - "The word "Torah" is a tricky one
because it can mean different things in different contexts.
In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of
Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire
Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the
Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in
its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings."

I wonder how many Jews, Christians, or Muslims, (what percentage)
really follow literally the teachings of their scriptures?
Perhaps they are all "ignorant" as you claim I am.

Dear Joe,

Thank You for the links.

Most Christians haven’t read the Bible, and the few who have, haven’t read beyond the Gospels. There’s a word they have for a Christian who has read the Bible: ‘atheist’. I've heard the same being said for a Muslim who has read the Qur'an.

Seminaries have massive dropout rates because students not only read the Bible, but learn how it was compiled. The faiths of many don’t survive that, and some of those who do make it to graduation stop believing at some point during their careers, but continue to preach regardless because it’s all they know. It is for these people that support groups like The Clergy Project were founded to help members of the clergy transition out of their careers and the Church, and offer emotional support during the process.

As for the nasty bits in scripture, moderate Muslims don’t seem to have much trouble reconciling these in the Qur’an. They use the same ‘context of the times’ argument that Christians and Jews use explain away the horrors of their holy books. I will grant, however, that doing this is probably a little easier for Christians because there are two collections of books with the lead character of one of them appearing to chuck out the first collection of books if you cherry-pick what he says, or interpret it creatively.

Dear AJ,

Well said.
You've said it much better than I could have.

When faced with some embarrassing quotes from whatever holy
book they embrace everybody picks the bits they like and
will rationalise the rest away.

Foxy: Which parts do you object to and take literally?

The Koranic Quotes

2:98. Allah is an enemy to unbelievers.
Allah treats unbelievers as the "enemy."

2:161. On unbelievers is the curse of Allah.
Allah curses unbelievers & wants to give them bad luck & harm.

2:191. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme.
Or, fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is Allah's entirely

2:193. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
All moslems are commanded by Allah to fight & kill all unbelievers until the entire World is moslem.

2:216. Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
Allah commands all moslems to fight unbelievers even if you don't want to because Allah knows better than you.

3:28 Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (to remember) Himself, for the final goal is to Allah.

3:85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

3:118. O ye who believe! take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks; they will not fail to corrupt you.
Allah commands all moslems not to make friends with unbelievers.

4:59 O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you.

Another 4 or 5 to go I'll have to wait 24 hrs for the last 2.

cont

4:95. Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home): unto all (in faith) hath Allah promised good: but those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.
All moslems who don't fight unbelievers are gutless & Allah knows them & their reward in Heaven will not be as great as those moslems that fight unbelievers.

4:123 Not your desires, nor those of the People of the Book (can prevail): whoever works evil, will be requited accordingly. Nor will he find, besides Allah, any protector or helper.

4:140. Already has He sent you word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the Hypocrites and those who defy faith, all in hell.

4:141. (These are) the ones who wait and watch about you: if ye do gain a victory from Allah, they say: "Were we not with you?" But if the unbelievers gain a success, they say (to them): "Did we not gain an advantage over you, and did we not guard you from the believers?" But Allah will judge betwixt you on the Day of Judgment. And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers.

5:33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, of the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

cont

5:44. It was We who revealed the Law (to Moses); therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophet who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's Will, by the Rabbis and the doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

5:59. Say: "O People of the Book! do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"

8:12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." 8:39: “And fight them until there is no more disbelief in Islam and the religion will all be for Allâh Alone...” Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.
Allah commands all moslems to fight unbelievers even though they don't like to fight. No excuse.

8:60 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the Cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

8:65. O Prophet! rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.