Hi Babette,

There are many myths about 'southern' Aboriginal people, who have generally been integrating into a modern economy and society for upwards of two hundred years, while contemporaneously, traditional knowledge has been put on the back-burner.

One could draw a rough line across Australia to differentiate such groups from others who have not been able to do so as easily, or at all. Very roughly, that line would also distinguish pastoral country, particularly cattle-raising, from the Rest. Clearly, the great majority of Aboriginal people have thus made the historical leap, although very few, especially leaders, would admit it.

South Australia was colonised from, say the beginning of 1837. An early Governor, George Grey, was enthusiastic about recording local languages and, in Eyre's vocabulary of the mid-Murray (Ngangaruku country), published in 1845, the Protector notes that, due to the much-enhanced mobility of Aboriginal people, when Aboriginal people meet, especially if they are from different groups, they speak English, the language after all of horses and harvests, money, hats and boots, grog and tobacco. Of course, countrymen speak to each other in their own languages when speaking about 'traditional' issues such as fishing and hunting and ceremony and family. But even countrymen speak in English about 'English' things.

Ironically, meanwhile, missionaries were learning the local languages in order to teach children in them. But of course, the families of those children also were pretty mobile, so in spite of the missionaries' intentions, their classes soon became quite mixed, with all children able to speak English - perhaps from as early as the 1840s. Certainly that was Taplin's experience at Pt McLeay in the early 1860s, that the children were already from various backgrounds and could speak English, often as their first language.

Of course, in more isolated areas, such as east of Lake Eyre,

[TBC]

[continued]

the Lutheran missionaries, learnt and taught in the local language, Diyari - in fact, right up until the missions were closed there during the First World War. They never taught in English - but in Diyari and German.

In the 1930s, the Presbyterians who set up Ernabella in the North-West, taught in Pitjantjatjara right up until the seventies. Schooling is still in Pitjantjatjara there. But of course, SA's North-West is over that 'line', well inside cattle country.

The vast majority of Indigenous university graduates can trace their ancestry back to southern mission stations, but also to hard-working (and mixed-ancestry) ancestors who integrated into the modern economy early. Of the forty thousand graduates (so far), extremely few could claim to have grown up over that 'line' in pastoral country, except of course in towns like Alice Springs or Katherine or Broome.

Have people 'over the line' missed the boat ? Have they been condemned by a history of limited contact with the outside world, to stay 'outside' ? Helped along by a solid dose of Coombsian policy of self-determination, which was probably doomed from the outset, and which has driven people further up the wrong path, compounding sixty thousand years of isolation from the rest of humanity ?

Cheers,

Joe

Thank you, Babette, for your thoughtful contribution on how best to help indigenous Australians. This is a far more constructive and beneficial approach than all the political blather about grievances and treaties.

Babette

Your suggestions are excellent - and are made more powerful by your Indian background.

Some related points from other sources about the need to recognise the limitations of traditional cultures in the modern world are on my web-site - see http://cpds.apana.org.au/Teams/Articles/aboriginal_advancement.htm#Obstacles

"....acknowlege.....that we live we live in a world made in England".

This is the best advice yet, not just for the few Australians left with some indigenous heritage, but for all Australians, particularly the Marxist spoilers and manipulators who prefer totalitarianism to the freedoms delivered to us by our enlightened forefathers of Anglo-Saxon origin.

the truth is that the Judeo Christian ethic made this nation great. Secularism/Islam is sending it back to the days of Sodom and Gomorrah.

A world made in England is probably more apt in India (another former British colony) than here? That said, there could be some lessons that might transfer to an older much more primitive stone age culture? But before we do any of that, we need to address other failings, the suicide rate, adequate housing and deaths in custody?

And that in my view, is best achieved in the Indian patriarchal model replete with very fair minded public servants and unimpeachable jurisprudence!

Otherwise, the only advancement will be in self serving control freak activist outcomes, replete with endemic nepotism and rampant corruption?

There is only one Australia, one dominant culture and one lawgiver, not several dozen conflicting imperatives!

It may be tough and not well liked, but some folk need to be dragged kicking and screaming straight out of the stone age into the 21st century, while preserving their language cultural history, the emphasis being history!

Given some of the traditional stone age customs, incest, acceptable domestic violence, historical color coded infanticide/antisocial demography and polygamy don't transfer, nor violence as entertainment!

While it may be paternalistic?

Joe's example worked and gradually brought in changes in a timely and acceptable manner? And a good workable humanitarian template?

And appropriate where all else seems to have failed! As has leaving these folk to rot in far flung failing communities, trying to hack out a failed 10th century existence in the 21st century!

There is not a white way nor a black way, just a right way and by definition, staying with what worked!?

Even if that doesn't suit wife beating, child abusing, control freak addicts, whose serial activities would be seriously curtailed or ended in larger better serviced/policed communities!?

And the one common underlying resistance theme, throughout the so called objections or humbug!?

There is only one constant in the entire universe and that one constant is constant change! We need to adapt and change with it or join the Dodos and the others who couldn't or wouldn't!
Alan B.

Without disrespecting the culture of the indigenous I think that they are well advised to become part of the wider Australian community. The government should recognise that they can never compete with white Australians and create a situation where they can work for a living at a lower level of rewards. After 40 years it is obvious that something has to be done about the labour market as far as indigenous are concerned.

I wonder how many of the 500,000 or so people who voted for the One Nation party listen to Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart or any Western classical music. Or read Shakespeare or any other of the classics of Western literature either ancient or modern.
Do they even read to their children, or do they like most normal moderns in the "lower" socio-economic scale of things plonk their children in front of a TV set or a computer screen, thus to be brainwashed into being "faithful" consumers, which is the REAL purpose of commercial TV.

hi Daffy,

I hesitate to make any criticism of you since you are obviously a superior person, deeply knowledgeable, wise, probably extremely good and kind as well, probably someone who will make a great difference with a single gesture too.

I had been thinking of getting a tattoo, and your attitude to the lower classes has reinforced that: in addition to an Aboriginal Flag over my heart, I am seriously thinking of getting one which proclaims "Proudly Bogan".

Amazing: as Nick Cater wrote in today's paper, the old left fought to keep people's jobs; the new 'Left' and greens fight to close up enterprises, mines, farms, factories, ports, and their attitude to the old working classes is indicative of their new class position. I would hazard a guess, Daffy, and suggest that you are either a junior bureaucrat or a final-year student of Cultural Studies ?

Be careful what you wish for ......

Joe

Only a duck would be as ignorant as Daffy.

Well this would have to be one of the silliest post even on OLO. As would be expected the usual crowd make their uninformed comments not least of all Runner.

It really defies logic that such a person can function in the modern world. Runner you do understand that our country was founded as a secular country from the start. so there is no before when the Christians run it?

But then someone new pops up Gadfly42 to make a truly remarkable racist suggestion. Are you really suggesting that people should be paid according to their skin colour/heritage?

In the end the biggest mistake ( at least the only one worth talking about in an article full of factual errors) is she believes Aboriginal people speak with one voice. They don't, just like all White Australians, just as the author doesn't speak for all Indians........evens the ones that have turned their back on their heritage.

The WINNER today , by a short beak is 'The Duck' ahead of 'runner' with daylight a distant third.

In the context of this essay by Babette, I wonder what percentage of normal Australian people are in any sense culturally literate in the sense of being thoroughly familiar with and deeply appreciative of the great works of Western music, literature and art.
Quite small I would suggest.
And do they consistently expose them to or encourage their children to understand and appreciate this music and literature.

Or, again to they merely like the usual dreadfully sane every-person in our time and place rely on either the TV or computer (mobile phone) screen, and popular music too, to "educate" or more correctly to be brain-washed into become a "faithful" zombified consumer, who dutifully buys all the LOGO name brand-name products that have been deeply implanted into their unconscious minds.

The topic of teaching (or reteaching) everyone the Western cultural canon is of course a favorite topic of all of the usual back-to-the-past conservatives. It is very much promoted by the IPA/Quadrant nexus. In fact they insist that it should be the bedrock base of any "good" education in this time and place. Kevin Donnelly pushes this theme.

But does knowledge and even a deep appreciation of the Western musical and literary canon necessarily make one a better person, or even more importantly culturally literatate when in our complex multi-cultural world ALL cultures are now very much face-to-face in a very small boat.

One person who really dug listening to the very best Western classical music, and discussing the finer points of Western (German) literature, during a dinner of fine food and the very best wine was the very infamous consummate bureaucrat Rudolf Hoss.

Rudolf Hoss? The famous cowboy?

runner, Tuesday, 4 October 2016 10:15:51 AM A world made in England

You write: "the truth is that the Judeo Christian ethic made this nation great. Secularism/Islam is sending it back to the days of Sodom and Gomorrah.]

The bigot is free to express his/her opinion here as you exemplify. But you cannot publish your opinion with impunity. Were we to acknowledge historical precedent in the light of the same freedom we must allow that it was not the Judeo/Christian ethic that promoted such freedoms, in fact it diligently persued a policy of keeping the faithful ignorant, impoverished and wretchedly fearful of Judeo/Christian authority. The faithful had the "freedom" to live in fear, be constantly hungry, cling desperately to a brief life-span and love unconditionally the deity who imposed these conditions on them via his earthly vicars. Being a female was infinitely less attractive an existence, condemned as they were by a loving deity to suffer the pain of childbirth without remediation. 30% of young women [or more] died in child birth. An even greater percentage died from constant pregnancy brought about by the biblical admonition to multiply the numbers of faithful.

What a ghastly legacy to look back on. Now tell us it was the Judeo/Christian ethic that raised women up from their terrible station to the one they occupy today. Not perfect, but a damned sight better than if left to the machinations of your particularly abominable ethic. An iron-age ethic that valued women as less than cattle. An ethic that even today treats women, HALF OF HUMANKIND, as unequal to men, an ethic that tells them that celibate wrinkled old men who wear dresses are better qualified to demand that women should not have ultimate authority over their own persons and physical bodies.

"It is now quite lawful for a Catholic woman to avoid pregnancy by a resort to mathematics, though she is still forbidden to resort to physics or chemistry."
H. L. Mencken
US editor (1880 - 1956

Ah, I get it, Daffy: you've just done a course in the Evils of Consumerism I ?

So you have it a bit both ways too, that you define Western civilization in terms of Bach and Beethoven and Dickens and Shakespeare, then condemn it for being familiar in those forms to a war criminal like Hoss ? Nothing like schadenfreude, eh Daffy ? Be careful that doesn't slip over into the nihilism that you rightly condemn.

Oh well, back to topic: there is some value in having a common language. The Enlightenment has provided a foundation for many national systems (honoured more often in the breach perhaps) in terms of human rights, the rule of law, equality of men and women, the value of scientific investigation and of evidence over religion. Western medicine is probably superior to magic and spells. People in Western countries, and those modelled on them, are probably more likely to die of old age in their beds than people in traditional societies.

Although it hasn't been inevitable, human progress can occur. Societies have progressed immeasurably from traditional systems to those embedded in the twenty-first century, and from that perspective, we can appreciate how far other societies have to go, to overcome some of their out-moded and backward notions, e.g. with respect to women, work, science - how the world should , work, generally speaking. No Western society is perfect, and none ever will be. But we all can make those comparisons and, if we're honest, make judgments accordingly.

And no, this doesn't mean that any Western country has go to invading anywhere, but neither can we sit by and wring our hands at the misery of others either.

Joe

Yep I know Pogi. Secularism is all about ME. You must be thankful that you even have an opinion. Many secular mums would of had you slaughtered in the womb. Also if you had not received such a dumbed down education you would realise the simple fact that the laws of physics require a Lawmaker, the laws of chemistry require a law Maker. I know that secularism specialises in pseudo science and moral relativity. That allows you to paint a dishonest picture of history but who cares eh. The secularist have convinced themselves their is no absolute right or wrong. Easy to tell a young boy with a penis he is really a she if he/she feels like it. Please give is a break from your dogma. It is far from rational.

Silly girl.
Not your fault I suppose you havent been here long but a bit of research into history would not go astray.
Look up the official government policy called "assimilation" that was practiced in this country not that long ago.
Note the ongoing damage and pain it caused and realise what you are advocating in your article is exactly the same.
What did you think Kevin Rudd said Sorry for?

Cobber,

The object of your scorn is not a post, it is an article, an essay, a contribution - one of those things that is the lifeblood of OLO.

Your "such a person" swipe at runner reflects poorly on your intelligence. I'm sure his beliefs - things you are totally ignorant of - help him to "function in the modern world better than you seemingly do. He is correct in his connection of Christian ethics in the settling of Australia. And your secularism doesn't discourage or discount religion; it merely separates Church from State. But, if you think that Christianity is not the base for democracy, you are seriously deluded.

The thing I most enjoyed in your post was your assertion that the author didn'speak for all Indians. Apart from the fact that she didn't claim to be doing so. She was speaking about a whole society, which she has to know more about than you do. The really funny thing though was that you, an obvious collectivist, was suddenly concerned about individualism! Next time we see Pearson or, now Senator, Dodson claiming to speak for Australians with indigenous heritage, as they regularly do, I will be expecting you to say that they do not speak for all people such people. Somehow, I don't think I should hold my breath.

runner, Tuesday, 4 October 2016 4:18:08 PM. A world made in England

Greetings runner. You write: "Many secular mums would of had you slaughtered in the womb."

Many mums? How many mums runner? Are you so drenched in Christian misogyny that you can purport that somewhere between 0% and 50% of women are selfish willful baby murderers, that not a significant number agonised over the course of action they were forced by circumstance to take?

Women were blessed, or cursed, with the bearing and nurturing of the young. Nature is not "fair". It has burdened the female with that responsibility, at least among the mammalia it has. Much fairer would have been 50% females and 50% males sharing the burden. But you, you grovelling sycophant, are only too happy to take advantage of nature's apparent unfairness. It's a heaven-sent opportunity [in more ways than one] for you to vent your spleen, mask your misogyny and know that a lot of your decrepit ilk agree with you.

Females bear the burden but it's males that make the laws thus unconscionably depriving females of sovereignty over their own body! Thus are women doubly encumbered with a responsibility by nature but are deprived by men of all authority to deal with that responsibility. Whether you be man or woman you should be ashamed to take advantage of such circumstances.

To a lesser degree, your knowledge of English grammar grates and offends. OF in your sentence quoted above should be HAVE. Learn about auxiliary verbs and note how ignorant you appear. Cont.....

Cont.
runner, Tuesday, 4 October 2016 4:18:08 PM. A world made in England

You write further: the simple fact that the laws of physics require a Lawmaker, the laws of chemistry require a law Maker.

I was genuinely surprised at your promulgation of such a stupid notion as the discredited LAWMAKER argument. Have you no respect for yourself and the way people see you on this forum?


From: https://coelsblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/what-are-laws-of-physics/

The Oxford Dictionary tells us: Law: (3) a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present.

And Laurence Kraus, perhaps the most eminent of all physicists advises: You can no more have laws of physics existing independently of matter than you can have a description of X independently of X. Thus if matter exists then you can have a description of it (= laws). But if there were no matter there could not be a description (and thus one could not have pre-existing laws).

There you have it runner. Your Lawmaker is a fiction created to enable dead-end intellects like yours to maintain a white-knuckle grip on superstitious nonsense.

And further: I know that secularism specialises in pseudo science and moral relativity. That allows you to paint a dishonest picture of history but who cares eh.

Secularism/pseudo-science and moral relativity? I genuinely regret runner that you will go to your grave believing the rubbish you do. Intellectual self-deception is, IMHO, a learned outlook. As such, it should be subject to un-learning but so refined has the process of inculcation become that the only cure in most cases is death. You'll have no opportunity to regret the life you wasted. You'll have learned nothing of value. Cont.

Cont.....runner, Tuesday, 4 October 2016 4:18:08 PM. A world made in England

You write: The secularist have convinced themselves their is no absolute right or wrong. Easy to tell a young boy with a penis he is really a she if he/she feels like it.
Just as a guy can boast of having a penis a bit larger than normal you boast of a certainty of some arcane dark truth mandating homosexuality as a choice. It is no more due to choice than having a big dick is a choice! Your obsession with absolutes is itself a choice strictly speaking as it has nought to do with genetics. How much freedom came with that opportunity for choice no one will ever know except perhaps you.

Are you seeking to legitimise your hatred of humans who are different from you? Are you convinced that any rational thinker will believe your deceit? Unless there are Outsiders you can hate your religion is not of much use to you is it? This is where I find your ilk to be really shameful for you are an insult to all that is good in humankind. You represent that group of stunted intellects who must at all cost be prevented from spreading your intellectual palsy beyond this planet.

Ask yourself runner: What have I done or what can I do to promote brotherly love, fellowship and compassion among those most in need of it?

Your capacity for hate, bigotry and intolerance is evidenced widely in this group. You have been chastised and even excoriated for it. How can you be absolutely certain that the cynosure of your allegiance and unquestioning faith is pleased with your attitude?

Does the obsession with absolutes provide you with the kind of martyrdom that satisfies your craving?

Pogi,

"Christian misogyny"? Is that different from other misogyny? Can you refer me to an explanation of this special kind of woman hating that is peculiar to Christianity? Why do you think that a man who is opposed to abortion has to be a woman hater?

Great work Pogi or is it Poirot? A lot of compassion shown to the child being ripped apart in the name of women's rights. Your denial of a Lawmaker is as logical as the denial of a baby in the womb not being human. Keep trying to justify the unjustifable Pogi unless of course you continue to revert to the moral relativism dogma preached by the the secular fundamentalist. No logic to it however it allows you to bury your conscience. Yep its all about ME.

{
Once when Jacob was cooking some stew, Esau came in from the open country, famished.

He said to Jacob, “Quick, let me have some of that red stew! I’m famished!” (That is why he was also called Edom)

Jacob replied, “First sell me your birthright.”

“Look, I am about to die,” Esau said. “What good is the birthright to me?”

But Jacob said, “Swear to me first.” So he swore an oath to him, selling his birthright to Jacob.

Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and some lentil stew. He ate and drank, and then got up and left.

So Esau despised his birthright.
}

[Genesis 25:29-34]

- Need I add anything, Babette?

Babette's article has some applicability to the Maori in New Zealand where a recourse, a return, especially in schools, to tribalism and Maori culture, usually to the detriment of mainstream subjects, is too often seen as THE way out of all the bad social stats and indices Maori are prone to. This is a totally retrograde emphasis.

I recall in a conversation some years ago with the eminent and highly respected Maori leader Sir Peter Tapsell his observing that a continued adherence to tribalism and all that it implied would be the death of Maori.

The obvious corollary did not need spelling out - that a too heavy reliance on Maori roots would be to the exclusion of their European roots, common roots shared by the huge majority of Maori in NZ.

runner, Wednesday, 5 October 2016 10:37:57 AM A world made in England 19:53

runner writes: Great work Pogi or is it Poirot?

As far as inanity and irrelevance is concerned you are breaking new ground with every post. You and ttbn share the lead in the Knuckle-walker of the Month award.

runner writes further: A lot of compassion shown to the child being ripped apart in the name of women's rights.

If you can't make a case without resort to blood-curdling hyperbole and fanatical misogyny then it's no wonder you are treated with so little respect. You're on the fringe of fundamentalism cast there by the vast majority of society who, using common sense, can sympathise with those who are driven to desperation by circumstances sometimes beyond their control.

I can understand your passion for absolutes. It's force-fed to you by a priesthood who must ensure a wide variey of fodder for their disgusting pedophile bretheren. Every child not born is a wasted opportunity! Yes! That's a bit of blood-curdling hyperbole thrown back at you. How foolish of you to not realise how much more vulnerable you are on issues such as this.

As we are a fair way off topic with this issue I declare my interest in continuing this discussion to be at an end. I close with: <http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html> ...with an injunction that you pay close attention and agree there is no point in further contention.

'I can understand your passion for absolutes. It's force-fed to you by a priesthood who must ensure a wide variey of fodder for their disgusting pedophile bretheren.'

Oh suddenly someone who does not believe in absolutes discovers pedophile is wrong. Amazing logic Pogi.

A world made in England 10/08/2016

runner, Saturday, 8 October 2016 11:12:09 AM

"Oh suddenly someone who does not believe in absolutes discovers pedophile is wrong. Amazing logic Pogi."

How shameful for you then that the religion you defend so ineptly does not abide by the same rules and conduct that it so rigorously imposes upon its flock! How shameful are they who conspired in cover-ups and moved offenders to even greener pastures? How
shameful are the flock members who chose the offender's word over that of their own children? How utterly shameful are the remaining flock who did nothing, but wring their hands, but hoped the awful episode would end as quickly and as quietly as possible, but prayed tearfully to ensure the validity of their ticket on the glory train even if their kids were molested, but stayed their protest and righteous indignation so that their piety impressed. Little Tommy and David will get over their experiences and if we put our dreadful mistakes out of our mind then maybe God will do the same, just for us of course cuz we are so pious and loving of our god [grovel, grovel].

How shaming of you is it that any individual involved in promoting beliefs that result in such heinous practices is tarred with the same brush, is complicit by omission and/or commission in the creation of this ordurous cess-pit?

Any other so paternalistic, oligarchic organisations as religions are, inviting the nurturing of sexual perversions, of venality, corruption and criminal conduct, would be razed to the ground and their hierarchies stripped of all authority by a decent society
thankful for the opportunity. Unfortunately for a decent society, the criminality and the hypocrisy are so pervasive as to escape notice as such for they appeal to some of the worst aspects of our personalities and are made holy and righteous by decree.

What shameful devices you use that you may maintain your faith.

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." M.L.King jr.

Perhaps you two would like to carry this on around the back of the bike shed?

I joined up here hoping for some relevant and minimal ad hominem discussion in the comments section.

A world made in England 10/08/2016

runner, Saturday, 8 October 2016 11:12:09 AM

"Oh suddenly someone who does not believe in absolutes discovers pedophile is wrong. Amazing logic Pogi."

How shameful for you then that the religion you defend so ineptly does not abide by the same rules and conduct that it so rigorously imposes upon its flock! How shameful are they who conspired in cover-ups and moved offenders to even greener pastures? How shameful are the flock members who chose the offender's word over that of their own children? How utterly shameful are the remaining flock who did nothing, but wring their hands, but hoped the awful episode would end as quickly and as quietly as possible, but prayed tearfully to ensure the validity of their ticket on the glory train even if their kids were molested, but stayed their protest and righteous indignation so that their piety impressed. Little Tommy and David will get over their experiences and if we put our dreadful mistakes out of our mind then maybe God will do the same, just for us of course cuz we are so pious and loving of our god[grovel, grovel].

How shaming of you is it that any individual involved in promoting beliefs that result in such heinous practices is tarred with the same brush, is complicit by omission and/or commission in the creation of this ordurous cess-pit?

Any other so paternalistic, oligarchic organisations as religions are, inviting the nurturing of sexual perversions, of venality, corruption and criminal conduct, would be razed to the ground and their hierarchies stripped of all authority by a decent society
thankful for the opportunity. Unfortunately for a decent society, the criminality and the hypocrisy are so pervasive as to escape notice as such for they appeal to some of the worst aspects of our personalities and are made holy and righteous by decree.

What shameful devices you use that you may maintain your faith.

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." M.L.King jr.

I offer my sincerest apologies for posting my message twice. If management can delete this mistake I would appreciate their doing so.

Babette Francis; 'By labeling your white ancestors as "invaders" you are at war with part of your own heritage.' As an Aboriginal person with dual (or perhaps duel is more apt) heritage of course I label the colonizers as invaders. That is exactly what they did and to not acknowledge that would be to continue the lie of history that Australia was peaceably settled. A lie that was propagated via the Great Australian Silence and the Master Narrative. The very same lie that denied massacres occurred or that lands were stolen, forcibly stolen.

Ms Francis doesn't seem to have much knowledge of Australian history, nor about issues that affect Aboriginal people today (the vast majority of who do speak English as a first language and live in urban and regional areas). She simply speaks with condescending generalizations and has no depth of understanding at all. Yet somehow she seems to believe she can speak with some sort of authority.

People like Ms Francis are part of the problem, not part of any meaningful solution.